Dark karasu has always been labeled as potentially scratchy. After some research I can't seem to find any examples of a scratchy karasu, only second hand "I've heard it can be scratchy" comments. Can we prevent a full blown conspiracy and find some empirical evidence please? Thanks for your help in the search.
Does scratchy karasu even exist?
- Thread starter musicman980
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I had one Karasu Tomonagura that definitely was scratchy many, many years ago. I bought it because it looked identical to my benchstone... which was not scratchy.
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- #3
Though being a nagura, do you remember if the whole thing was scratchy, or just the black spots?
Never did tell. I remember when I used it to slurry my main stone it both scratched the hell out of my stone and honing on the slurry scratched up the razors. Bought another tomo and problem stopped, so I tossed the Karasu.
It did have a big wire in it, so I assumed that was the problem moreso than the Karasu. If memory serves I sold it to someone for a loss as a problem stone and recommended they gouge out the wire. This was 12 years ago though, can't say I know if they ever did or if that fixed it.
It did have a big wire in it, so I assumed that was the problem moreso than the Karasu. If memory serves I sold it to someone for a loss as a problem stone and recommended they gouge out the wire. This was 12 years ago though, can't say I know if they ever did or if that fixed it.
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- #5
A big wire? Haha yeah that could have been the problem instead of the karasu. I won't ask why it was there.
So far it's still the only wire I've run into that was (probably) toxic on the dozen or so Jnats I've had with wires. Maybe I'm just lucky with them.
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- #7
Oh I thought you meant a metal wire got somehow embedded in your jnat. What kind of wire are you talking about?
Black Lines through the stone.
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- #10
I see, thanks for clarifying.
Buca, It would be interesting to see if any karasu itself causes scratches, because there is a chance that the entire stone could be scratchy.
Buca, It would be interesting to see if any karasu itself causes scratches, because there is a chance that the entire stone could be scratchy.
I've owned a few Karasu that were infested with toxic lines. The scratchy part is, usually, what looks like some sort of Namazu, usually light or white-is in color, but usually has more of a geometric line to it, as opposed to a typical free form pseudopod sorta intrustion. The scratching appears to be caused by a very hard quartzite running through the inclusion. There's another type that is more subtle, it's also extremely hard where the previously mentioned type is often a bit softer. This harder type is like a scratchy Oozuku - sorta like sharkskin in a way, that's the best I can describe it. There used to be a rather infamous seller on an equally infamous auction site that seemed to do a lot of trade in Karasu with 'toxic lines' (as he referred to them). His listing copy always used to call out the toxic line, followed by a suggestion to dig the line out with a nail.
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- #12
Gamma, you speak of karasu as if it's a type of stone or layer to itself, as opposed to the pattern itself. Do i have that right? I was under the impression that it was just a pattern, in which case scratchy namazu would be a different pattern.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
Keith. You made my evening in confinement, lol.
No, I'm not speaking as such, it's just that you're interpreting it that way.
As someone refers to a Kiita as a Kiita, which is a color not a type of stone - a stone with a Karasu pattern will be referred to as a Karasu. "I have a beautiful Nakayama Karasu'. Neither Nakayama or Karasu is a type of stone, yet we know what they're talking about.
Karasu is a pattern, a stone with a Karasu pattern is often callled a Karasu. Or Karasu Aisa, or Nakayama Karasu, or whatever strata... just like Kiita - people refer to Kiita stona as a Kiita. Kiita is not a layer, or a type of stone - it's a color. Several 'important' patterns are used as names in this way.
But people will say I have a lovely Kiita. Like someone with blond hair gets called a blond, blond is not a type of person, just someone with that color hair.
All of the stones from the layers we get our 'razor hones' from are basically all the same type of stone - an indurated shale. Patterns, colors, and strata are nicknames we use for the sake of discussion.
Namazu is a different pattern, but it's less regarded than Karasu. So a Karasu with Namazu would typically be spoken of as a Karasu, or perhaps a Karasu Namazu if the person was prone to being verbose.
But Namazu in Karasu is usually softer and innocuous. The Karasu pattern with toxic lines is still Karasu. The other very hard Karasu I mentioned has no lines, is sometimes phantom, and is still Karasu, and called Karasu.
As someone refers to a Kiita as a Kiita, which is a color not a type of stone - a stone with a Karasu pattern will be referred to as a Karasu. "I have a beautiful Nakayama Karasu'. Neither Nakayama or Karasu is a type of stone, yet we know what they're talking about.
Karasu is a pattern, a stone with a Karasu pattern is often callled a Karasu. Or Karasu Aisa, or Nakayama Karasu, or whatever strata... just like Kiita - people refer to Kiita stona as a Kiita. Kiita is not a layer, or a type of stone - it's a color. Several 'important' patterns are used as names in this way.
But people will say I have a lovely Kiita. Like someone with blond hair gets called a blond, blond is not a type of person, just someone with that color hair.
All of the stones from the layers we get our 'razor hones' from are basically all the same type of stone - an indurated shale. Patterns, colors, and strata are nicknames we use for the sake of discussion.
Namazu is a different pattern, but it's less regarded than Karasu. So a Karasu with Namazu would typically be spoken of as a Karasu, or perhaps a Karasu Namazu if the person was prone to being verbose.
But Namazu in Karasu is usually softer and innocuous. The Karasu pattern with toxic lines is still Karasu. The other very hard Karasu I mentioned has no lines, is sometimes phantom, and is still Karasu, and called Karasu.
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- #15
Thanks for your comment, Keith, I figured as such. Right, so to clarify from the get go I was referring to the black spots themselves being scratchy, not the entire stoned which in its entirety can be classified as karasu. I'm just going off of claims like what's on your website: Japanese Whetstone Glossary | TomoNagura.Com | Keith V. Johnson - https://www.tomonagura.com/jnats/japanese-whetstone-info/japanese-whetstone-glossary.html
"It’s been claimed that very dark Karasu spots can be scratchy" - that clearly refers to the spots themselves, not the entire stone. If the namazu lines on your karasu stone are scratchy, that's not the karasu spots. Again, thank you for all the info in your comment, I'm just trying to get some clarity here.
For the sake of clarity, even though I am now over my 2 posts per thread limit...
I have had a lighter Karasu, what I call a translucent Karasu, that is scratchy, and it has black spots and they are scratchy and so is the rest of the stone. I have not cut the black spots out to scientifically test them for scratchiness. I assume they are since the whole stone feels the same, spots and all. So I could say with enough certainty that those black spots in that Karasu were scratchy. All of this makes perfect sense once the the intricacies of the stone's geology is understood, but that's another story.
I have had dealings with reputable people, users and dealers, who have had dark grey types of Karasu with scratchy black spots also. When the source is good, I'll pass their information on, usually without asking for scientific proof though. I mean no one really wants to be 'that guy'. I'd also guesstimate that there are probably 1-2 or even a few fellows that were once regulars here that have touched few Karasu with scratchy spot patterns. So many members have gone off forever though, it's almost like a ghost town in a way.
As for the rest of the confusion, I'll try and clarify - Namazu is a pattern. The scratchy lines in Karasu that I am referring to are not Namazu. They just sorta remind me of Namazu. But they are not the same thing. One is a pattern (Namazu), the other is part of a pattern (Karasu). Karasu is not just black dots.
Namazu is not toxic. Sometimes, lines in a Karasu pattern are toxic and the Karasu pattern then, is considered scratchy.
The pattern is a Karasu pattern, it has lines in it, it is still a Karasu pattern, the lines are not another type of pattern, it's just part of the Karasu pattern.
One point of confusion might lie in trying to make Karasu be 'one thing' when it's not only one thing; there are a literal ton of variations on the pattern, some of which look more like Suminigashi that have vertigo. It's still Karasu though. Some Karasu don't look anything at all like the spotted dog patterns we see so often.
So yes, there are scratchy Karasu. There are scratchy spots in Karasu. Some Karasu patterns have lines or other stuff in it.
Karasu is a pattern, more correctly it's a theory about a pattern. Take Kan; for example, not all circular patterns resemble tree rings. But they are still Kan and there is no conspiracy. But, back to Karasu, it is not a type of stone, but it is common to refer to stones with that pattern by the main identifier.
As I am typing this, I remembered that my wife has a Karasu on her nightstand. It's a display piece, a gift from a good friend in Japan. Said friend told me it's a looker but 'not a good stone' to sharpen with. I wonder if it is a darker Karasu with scratchy black spots? It very well could be exactly that given the adamant instructions to not use it. Someday, when I have time, I may investigate for sticks and giggles.
Maybe the above helps clear things up. Or not. Either way, hopefully there are bigger fish to fry.
I have had a lighter Karasu, what I call a translucent Karasu, that is scratchy, and it has black spots and they are scratchy and so is the rest of the stone. I have not cut the black spots out to scientifically test them for scratchiness. I assume they are since the whole stone feels the same, spots and all. So I could say with enough certainty that those black spots in that Karasu were scratchy. All of this makes perfect sense once the the intricacies of the stone's geology is understood, but that's another story.
I have had dealings with reputable people, users and dealers, who have had dark grey types of Karasu with scratchy black spots also. When the source is good, I'll pass their information on, usually without asking for scientific proof though. I mean no one really wants to be 'that guy'. I'd also guesstimate that there are probably 1-2 or even a few fellows that were once regulars here that have touched few Karasu with scratchy spot patterns. So many members have gone off forever though, it's almost like a ghost town in a way.
As for the rest of the confusion, I'll try and clarify - Namazu is a pattern. The scratchy lines in Karasu that I am referring to are not Namazu. They just sorta remind me of Namazu. But they are not the same thing. One is a pattern (Namazu), the other is part of a pattern (Karasu). Karasu is not just black dots.
Namazu is not toxic. Sometimes, lines in a Karasu pattern are toxic and the Karasu pattern then, is considered scratchy.
The pattern is a Karasu pattern, it has lines in it, it is still a Karasu pattern, the lines are not another type of pattern, it's just part of the Karasu pattern.
One point of confusion might lie in trying to make Karasu be 'one thing' when it's not only one thing; there are a literal ton of variations on the pattern, some of which look more like Suminigashi that have vertigo. It's still Karasu though. Some Karasu don't look anything at all like the spotted dog patterns we see so often.
So yes, there are scratchy Karasu. There are scratchy spots in Karasu. Some Karasu patterns have lines or other stuff in it.
Karasu is a pattern, more correctly it's a theory about a pattern. Take Kan; for example, not all circular patterns resemble tree rings. But they are still Kan and there is no conspiracy. But, back to Karasu, it is not a type of stone, but it is common to refer to stones with that pattern by the main identifier.
As I am typing this, I remembered that my wife has a Karasu on her nightstand. It's a display piece, a gift from a good friend in Japan. Said friend told me it's a looker but 'not a good stone' to sharpen with. I wonder if it is a darker Karasu with scratchy black spots? It very well could be exactly that given the adamant instructions to not use it. Someday, when I have time, I may investigate for sticks and giggles.
Maybe the above helps clear things up. Or not. Either way, hopefully there are bigger fish to fry.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
I have a dozen or more and none of the black spots are scratchy. Alex Gilmore once said that the Japanese don’t like karasu because they don’t think that they black spots have grit in them (but they very much know what the pattern is worth in the west, lol).
One of mine has a glassy line in one end half of which is ‘toxic’ if not picked, with use it will not wear down with the rest of the stone and stick up above the surface, but this kind of inclusion isn‘t unique to karasu.
I suppose there are bad karasu pattern stones as Keith alludes to, just like any other pattern or color. My main complaint is that the crow layer is often very thin - they are very skilled at cutting to preserve it, so after some use your expensive karasu loses most of its value and becomes a grey stone. It will still hone as well, but you lost hundreds of dollars when you wore the thin karasu layer off.
One of mine has a glassy line in one end half of which is ‘toxic’ if not picked, with use it will not wear down with the rest of the stone and stick up above the surface, but this kind of inclusion isn‘t unique to karasu.
I suppose there are bad karasu pattern stones as Keith alludes to, just like any other pattern or color. My main complaint is that the crow layer is often very thin - they are very skilled at cutting to preserve it, so after some use your expensive karasu loses most of its value and becomes a grey stone. It will still hone as well, but you lost hundreds of dollars when you wore the thin karasu layer off.
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