New Hone Day(and new razor)

[Dilbone]

Thanks to SliceofLife for letting go of these little gems. A 1.5x7 escher and a Clauss straight in bone scales(shown with a GD I made bone scales for a while back).
I have one other Clauss in black plastic scales I picked up simply because Freemont, Ohio where they were made is just 25miles down the road from me. It's a fantastic shaver and holds a great edge so I was eager to get this one in bone scales from Ian and he was kind enough to have a thuri edge put on it so I could have something to compare my thuri edges to.

I shaved with my first thuri edge yesterday and I wasn't disappointed but I'm sure I have some learning to do. After "playing around" with the stone for a while with plain water, slurry, pressure, no pressure, circles, x's, and such I finally went back to my coti on water to get the edge where it normally would be before I typically take it to the coti on baby oil for a finish only this time I took it for 30 barely weight of the blade laps on the thuri instead of baby oil on the coti for the finish. I think it was maybe keener than straight off the coti with water but I'm not entirely sure. The FOTF test wasn't any better(maybe a smidge worse) after the thuri but the shave was comfortable and smooth...just still lacking some keenness I'd prefer to have. Maybe I'll go back to the thuri for some more light laps before the next shave and see if it improves at all?
Looking forward to experimenting a bit with it.

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[MasterOfPups]

Its been a while since I've done the coti to thuri thing, but I usually did 50 - 100 laps, sometimes more. Kinda depends on the type of steel and how much pressure you are using. I would just stay on the thuri until it was treetopping arm hair easily.

 

[Dilbone]

Thanks MasterOfPups, I just grabbed some glycerin and put a few drops with a bit of water and did 30 more laps. FOTF test was similar to before, not sure if it was any better or not. Shave test to follow.

 

[MasterOfPups]

Thuris usually aren’t very big, you may need more laps than what you would expect. Instead of counting laps, you might want to just keep going until you know the edge is improved.

 

[Namkcakram]

I have the exact same experience... 1.5x7 thuringian, which is definitely an Escher size. No slurry stone so play with diamond generated slurry, no slurry, mixing up pressures, water, other fluids... at the end of the day the shave ends up smooth and all, but it sort of fits in dead center of my coti collection in terms of how keen/smooth an edge it produces.

I want to believe I’m screwing it up, but it makes a very similar quality edge no matter what I do so I’m not actually sure if I COULD screw it up. For me my Arks are all a full step above it in terms of keen edges, and about half my Cotis Wind up being keener and maybe slightly smoother face feel too.

Nothing wrong with it, it makes a cool edge... but I’m not sure I’d recommend one to someone who’s already dialed in a nice Ark, Coti, or JNAT. It might be a great first natural finisher for somebody just starting down the rabbit hole since it seems to make consistent quality edges with any process.

 

[Dilbone]

Thuris usually aren’t very big, you may need more laps than what you would expect. Instead of counting laps, you might want to just keep going until you know the edge is improved.

Ian said in his experience these are pretty darn fast and said maybe even 10-20laps between shaves to see if I can detect any improvement. I think it may have been better after the 30 on glycerin...but I didn't do my normal face prep before that shave so I'm not entirely sure. I may do a few more laps on glycerin before the next shave again to see.

I have the exact same experience... 1.5x7 thuringian, which is definitely an Escher size. No slurry stone so play with diamond generated slurry, no slurry, mixing up pressures, water, other fluids... at the end of the day the shave ends up smooth and all, but it sort of fits in dead center of my coti collection in terms of how keen/smooth an edge it produces.

I want to believe I’m screwing it up, but it makes a very similar quality edge no matter what I do so I’m not actually sure if I COULD screw it up. For me my Arks are all a full step above it in terms of keen edges, and about half my Cotis Wind up being keener and maybe slightly smoother face feel too.

Nothing wrong with it, it makes a cool edge... but I’m not sure I’d recommend one to someone who’s already dialed in a nice Ark, Coti, or JNAT. It might be a great first natural finisher for somebody just starting down the rabbit hole since it seems to make consistent quality edges with any process.

This is why I'm glad Ian went ahead and put an Escher finish on that Clauss for me so I can compare it to the edge I have off of this stone. I'm going to wait to shave with that razor until I feel I'm not getting any more improvement on my edge first, but that should tell me if there's more in the Escher that I haven't unlocked yet or if what you've described(and I've experienced to this point) is true.

All of this has made me get my Dan's black primitive back out to do some further testing. I haven't been happy at all with edges off of it. It always seems to take the edge backward so I was afraid maybe it just wasn't lapped flat enough. I grabbed some loose SiC powder from a harbor freight rock tumbling kit and hit it last night for a while to "reset" things and start over. I'm just looking for something that will take the edge past the level of keen I get from my TSS coti on baby oil, but I haven't found it yet. I may have to break down and get my 1u and .3u films back out. Maybe my tastes for keen have gone beyond the naturals I have at this point. I guess this is all part of the fun of it. Trial/error and experimentation.

 

[Namkcakram]

Ian said in his experience these are pretty darn fast and said maybe even 10-20laps between shaves to see if I can detect any improvement. I think it may have been better after the 30 on glycerin...but I didn't do my normal face prep before that shave so I'm not entirely sure. I may do a few more laps on glycerin before the next shave again to see.



This is why I'm glad Ian went ahead and put an Escher finish on that Clauss for me so I can compare it to the edge I have off of this stone. I'm going to wait to shave with that razor until I feel I'm not getting any more improvement on my edge first, but that should tell me if there's more in the Escher that I haven't unlocked yet or if what you've described(and I've experienced to this point) is true.

All of this has made me get my Dan's black primitive back out to do some further testing. I haven't been happy at all with edges off of it. It always seems to take the edge backward so I was afraid maybe it just wasn't lapped flat enough. I grabbed some loose SiC powder from a harbor freight rock tumbling kit and hit it last night for a while to "reset" things and start over. I'm just looking for something that will take the edge past the level of keen I get from my TSS coti on baby oil, but I haven't found it yet. I may have to break down and get my 1u and .3u films back out. Maybe my tastes for keen have gone beyond the naturals I have at this point. I guess this is all part of the fun of it. Trial/error and experimentation.

Here’s my primitive black, it leaves hands down one of the keenest edges I can make period. Mine is very slow~100+ laps depending on the pre-finish stone used and the blade temper, and that’s at 9.25” x 3.25” honing surface. I think mine leaves an edge that’s a clear step up in keenness from any of my “normal” Coticules, but maybe only a half step up from my best Les lat hybrid. I end up going for Coticule edges on narrow bevel angle hollow grinds, and keener Ark or JNAT edges on fatter bevels or more rigid blades.

Ill be interested in your results after lapping! I have a hard time believing a properly prepared surgical black would take an edge backwards. I’ve run a .3mu edge and surgical black edge side by side and found the ark to be keener and more forgiving, with the trade off being it takes all day to hone a hard-tempered blade.

*edit just wanted to mention in my dabbles with thuringian edges I realized I felt the edges peaked after a few shaves and realized they needed stropping on linen/leather on par with Coticule edges, even though I wasn’t seeing a big jump in HHT performance like I see with Coticules post strop. By contrast with Ark and JNAT edges I can almost skip the linen stropping and get the same face feel shaving.

 

[Dilbone]

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Here’s my primitive black, it leaves hands down one of the keenest edges I can make period. Mine is very slow~100+ laps depending on the pre-finish stone used and the blade temper, and that’s at 9.25” x 3.25” honing surface. I think mine leaves an edge that’s a clear step up in keenness from any of my “normal” Coticules, but maybe only a half step up from my best Les lat hybrid. I end up going for Coticule edges on narrow bevel angle hollow grinds, and keener Ark or JNAT edges on fatter bevels or more rigid blades.

Ill be interested in your results after lapping! I have a hard time believing a properly prepared surgical black would take an edge backwards. I’ve run a .3mu edge and surgical black edge side by side and found the ark to be keener and more forgiving, with the trade off being it takes all day to hone a hard-tempered blade.

*edit just wanted to mention in my dabbles with thuringian edges I realized I felt the edges peaked after a few shaves and realized they needed stropping on linen/leather on par with Coticule edges, even though I wasn’t seeing a big jump in HHT performance like I see with Coticules post strop. By contrast with Ark and JNAT edges I can almost skip the linen stropping and get the same face feel shaving.

Namkcakram,
That is one impressive rock. I also have a trans primitive as well but I've done very little surface prep with it which will change now that I have the loose grit to work with.
Your black doesn't look very burnished. Does it have a "polished" glass like surface like I've seen on some or is it fresh off of a fine grit lapping with little reflectivity? Just curious as to what you have found most beneficial. I've seen both recommended and I've had little luck with either but I'm assuming it was an "it's not flat yet" problem less than a surface prep.

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[Namkcakram]

Ha don’t worry it gets down to about 1/4” thick in spots so definitely not a super stone, I got it for a huge discount since they seemingly price by weight.

For mine I just pulled it out of the box, confirmed it was flat, and started honing. After a couple razors I had figured out where it had a few low spots and needed the edges rounded because there was a tiny catch in one spot. It was so close to flat I just used a granite surface plate and harbor freight SiC paper up to “1200 grit”, about 1/2 pack of 500grit and 1/2 of 1200grit.

I think the surface when I was finished was marginally smoother than new out of the box, and the rounded edges definitely helped mindless honing without catching an edge on the irregular stone edge.

I think everything is a trade off and for hard Arks a broken in surface can leave a slightly more refined edge, but it also takes longer to get there. I think the sweet spot is either 50 plus razor honing sessions after surface lapping, or if you have a few kitchen knives or woodworking tools with larger bevels and higher pressure honing you can get a broken in surface really quickly.

Having said all this I’ve settled on Coticules for the vast majority of my razor honing, I bust out arks or JNATs as more of a special occasion thing or for certain blades that seem to have a preferred honing medium. American or British vintage hollows honed on Arks take about the sweetest edge in all of razordom IMO.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Thuri's tend to be pretty fast in general. If you're getting solid shaves off your coticule, then I would be surprised if more than 30 passes on the thuri were needed to notice a difference, but everyone's technique and coti's are different. Now, you won't usually max out a thuri on 30 (60-120 probably more reasonable), but after the first 30-50, you'll be 95% of the way there if there weren't significant problems with the edge prior to going to the Thuri, and unless you're really paying attention to the shave, the difference will be minimal.

I don't mess with anything with Thuri's. No glycerin, running water, slurry (other than the self slurry some will have when used). They're a splash and go stone in my book.

Can exceptional coticules get sharper than a Thuri? Yes, but it's a pretty small percentage, maybe with some technique or oil, more can... again I pretty much just use water on coti's as well these days. Many more can get close enough that it's not easy to tell a difference in closeness (though feel will usually be quite different). But an average Coticule is a pretty big step down in sharpness vs a Thuri.

My recommendation for 10-20 passes between shaves was just to see if you notice any improvement doing so... most likely you won't or it will be quite minor.... but is worth investigating.

Also possibly worth trying is another razor and see if you're getting consistent results between razors. Some razors do REALLY well on coticules for whatever reason (often fairly thin ground ones)... might be worth seeing if you're results between your coticule and the Thuri are repeatable across multiple straights.

 

[Dilbone]

Thanks Gents for your input here. Much appreciated.

After taking my SB arkie to loose SiC on a marble tile I started to burnish it a bit. Then I was reading about some fellas don't burnish much at all and prefer a more matte finish on their arks, so then I went back to my king 1k for a while to knock the burnish off. Then I went to the norton 8k for just a few minutes to smooth it out just a bit more.

After removing all of the burnishing I'd done the last couple of days I decided to take the blade I'd already been experimenting with on the arkie back to it for a couple hundred laps starting with some pressure and lightening up as I went. I didn't do any additional laps on the thuri with the other blade, but I stropped both this morning and planned a half face shave with both blades.

I started with the Arkie blade...holy cow. This is the first time I have had a blade coming off the arkie that was as keen(maybe more) as the coti off of oil. ATG was smooth as could be...I was shocked, I didn't think I was ever going to get a useable edge off that stone let alone a fantastic one.

The thuri blade felt about like it had before. Comfy, a little tuggy compared to the arkie, and ATG was definitely rougher than the arkie blade. I may do a few more light laps on it before switching to some other "better" blades.
Both of the test blades on these stones have been gold dollars that I modified. I know some of you just cringed, but those 2 blades have given me some amazing shaves. I still have to do a test shave with Ian's blade that I'm looking forward to but I'm just pleased that I have gotten shaveable edges off of some other stones than my TSS coticule which up to this point has been the only stone I've gotten edges that I would consider good enough to enjoy the shave from.

Now it's on to some other blades and of course the primitive trans arkie for flattening and prep too.

 

[Namkcakram]

Thanks Gents for your input here. Much appreciated.

After taking my SB arkie to loose SiC on a marble tile I started to burnish it a bit. Then I was reading about some fellas don't burnish much at all and prefer a more matte finish on their arks, so then I went back to my king 1k for a while to knock the burnish off. Then I went to the norton 8k for just a few minutes to smooth it out just a bit more.

After removing all of the burnishing I'd done the last couple of days I decided to take the blade I'd already been experimenting with on the arkie back to it for a couple hundred laps starting with some pressure and lightening up as I went. I didn't do any additional laps on the thuri with the other blade, but I stropped both this morning and planned a half face shave with both blades.

I started with the Arkie blade...holy cow. This is the first time I have had a blade coming off the arkie that was as keen(maybe more) as the coti off of oil. ATG was smooth as could be...I was shocked, I didn't think I was ever going to get a useable edge off that stone let alone a fantastic one.

The thuri blade felt about like it had before. Comfy, a little tuggy compared to the arkie, and ATG was definitely rougher than the arkie blade. I may do a few more light laps on it before switching to some other "better" blades.
Both of the test blades on these stones have been gold dollars that I modified. I know some of you just cringed, but those 2 blades have given me some amazing shaves. I still have to do a test shave with Ian's blade that I'm looking forward to but I'm just pleased that I have gotten shaveable edges off of some other stones than my TSS coticule which up to this point has been the only stone I've gotten edges that I would consider good enough to enjoy the shave from.

Now it's on to some other blades and of course the primitive trans arkie for flattening and prep too.

If it’s an American or British hollow it might surprise you a second time. On really fine grained steels my Ark edges are keen enough that I can’t figure out how my skin stays intact! It’s like the ark edge knows what’s hair and what’s face.

 

[Dilbone]

I prepped the trans ark last night the same way as with the SB except I skipped the norton 8k. Once I had a nice uniform surface from the king 1k I tried it out with a pearl king razor I have that was fresh off the coti with oil and very sharp.
I started with some pressure and lightened up at the end of the first 100, then another light 100, then another 70-80 super light laps.
The FOTF test was not great. I didn't catch nearly as many hairs as I do when coming straight off the coti and that typically for me means a less than stellar edge. I stropped it up this morning prepared to have to grab another razor to finish the job.
I also did another couple sets of 30 super light laps on the thuri with only water, no glycerin. The FOTF test was worse after having done the additional laps which again had me figuring this wasn't going to go well.

I did another half and half shave with each of these 2 razors.

Both of them were comfortable shaves and pretty close. They weren't laser type edges, but they did the job and did it fairly comfortably. I still can't make sense of it based on the FOFT test which should have produced a poor shave in my experience.

 

[Namkcakram]

I still haven’t had a thuri shave that FEELS like the edge is keen enough, even on an extremely hollow 13.8 Degree 13/16 blade. That blade comes off any other decent natural finisher just screaming sharp.

Somehow though the shaves keep coming out BBS with low drama, and still I think the peak edge feel hits after a few shaves with linen stropping in between.

 

[Dilbone]

I still haven’t had a thuri shave that FEELS like the edge is keen enough, even on an extremely hollow 13.8 Degree 13/16 blade. That blade comes off any other decent natural finisher just screaming sharp.

Somehow though the shaves keep coming out BBS with low drama, and still I think the peak edge feel hits after a few shaves with linen stropping in between.

I feel that way about most of my edges which is why I'm chasing keenness. I'm hoping I may have found it in the SB ark now though.

I actually took my Pearl King back to the trans ark for another 100ish and seemed to have a better FOFT afterward. I also took the other blade back to the escher on slurry for 10-12, diluted for 10-15, then plain water for another 10-15. It also seems better on the FOFT.
We'll see if the shave test agrees in the morning.

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[Dilbone]

After stropping the FOFT was even worse than straight off the stone. The thuri edge was def a bit worse, the trans ark edge may have been the same, hard to tell. I would say the trans edge was better overall, less pulling and tugging.

I may try the thuri under running water and see if the FOFT gets better. If it doesn't improve under running water I may go back to the coti to get it where it would normally be for me and start over on the thuri with only 30 or so easy light laps under running water and see where that leaves me.

I'm still holding out to use Ian's thuri honed edge until I feel like I'm getting something decent myself off of it.

I also need to test the SB ark again...that edge was definitely among the keenest I have ever gotten from a natural stone.

 

[Dilbone]

I shaved Saturday half with the blade I've been experimenting with on the thuri and the other half with Ian's blade. I was surprised that my blade seemed about as keen as Ian's even though his was better on the FOFT than mine. However, neither of them seemed all that keen to me and left some irritation. I thought maybe the Arko soap was to blame. I recently had picked up my first puck of Arko because of the reviews of how good it is, but to me it lacked the cushion I feel I get from my home made soap recipe.

As a result I did a 2nd shave test of both blades last night using my soap. WTG both blades felt pretty sharp, XTG maybe a little less so, and ATG definitely less keen than I was happy with. The post shave irritation was less than Saturday's shave but the aftershave burn was more than I'd been getting through all of my experimenting.

I'm afraid maybe the Escher/Thuri edge just isn't my cup of tea. The best shave so far that I got from the thuri was coming straight off the coti for 30 laps on the thuri. I may try that again and see what happens. At this point, I may be getting rid of my little jnat and the thuri. This TSS coti I have seems to be the golden ticket to a smooth and keen edge.

 

[Namkcakram]

I shaved Saturday half with the blade I've been experimenting with on the thuri and the other half with Ian's blade. I was surprised that my blade seemed about as keen as Ian's even though his was better on the FOFT than mine. However, neither of them seemed all that keen to me and left some irritation. I thought maybe the Arko soap was to blame. I recently had picked up my first puck of Arko because of the reviews of how good it is, but to me it lacked the cushion I feel I get from my home made soap recipe.

As a result I did a 2nd shave test of both blades last night using my soap. WTG both blades felt pretty sharp, XTG maybe a little less so, and ATG definitely less keen than I was happy with. The post shave irritation was less than Saturday's shave but the aftershave burn was more than I'd been getting through all of my experimenting.

I'm afraid maybe the Escher/Thuri edge just isn't my cup of tea. The best shave so far that I got from the thuri was coming straight off the coti for 30 laps on the thuri. I may try that again and see what happens. At this point, I may be getting rid of my little jnat and the thuri. This TSS coti I have seems to be the golden ticket to a smooth and keen edge.

That’s about where I am now... Ive found a few blades in particular that shave well off the thuri. I had a great shave two days ago from a thuri edge, but it’s a new blade and I’m still expecting it will be better off of any of my coticules or Arks.

The Ark edge is probably the ultimate shaving without irritation edge for my skin and hair. Coticules are massively underrated too, I love how unpopular they are right now because I could afford a whole pile of them in my razor drawer.

Totally enabling here, but you might really like a Les Lat hybrid if you get the right one. That layer hasn’t been totally consistent for me, but the winners I’ve lucked into are just awesome.

 

[HVenture138]

My experience with Thuringians is that they are fast and 100 laps seems like way to much to me and I’m using a 180x40. I’ll start with a slurry and do a few dilutions down to some thing very light. When I feel the draw on the stone increase I will quickly dilute. For me increased draw is a big red flag. On my stone running ahead is always better than falling behind. When I hit it the HHT will perform conspicuously more sharp than even my keenest coticule edges (and I’m getting very keen edges off my coti) though they are never as comfortable. But yeah, thuris are fast.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Coticules aren't so much under-rated as they are very variant, in my opinion. I've got a number that perform right up there with the best stone, but I've owned many that were very unimpressive. Rarely are they BAD, just not always great.

Arkansas were just criminally underrepresented with razors a few years ago. They aren't as easy to use as some stones, but they are excellent stones.

I've been surprised by the number of people disappointed in Thuri's recently. I still feel they're one of the best razor stones; though with certain razors, certainly, good coticules will have an advantage, and with sufficient skill, arks would pull ahead in my experience. I partly wonder if people are struggling with technique (during the shave) differences with Thuri's vs Coticules. Coticules you can wave around like a conductor's wand on your face while dancing the hulu drunk and be fine... Thuri's aren't in quite the same camp, they require more focus on proper stretching of skin and maintaining angle. Also, Coticule edges hold up better to very rough/aggressive stropping vs most other (including Thuri) edges.