Convex club.

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Thanks for the advice on ballistol, I'd guessed it would be a preference thing. Just wanted a rough idea what to start with.

As to how I convexed my ark. Your right, it's not something to be taken lightly.

I started with a slightly bowed, large wooden board and attached a sheet of 60 grit sandpaper to the apex of the bow.
View attachment 1003806
Spent some time sanding it like you see above, then rotating the stone 90 degrees and sanding some more.
You can see the tram lines on the sandpaper from doing this.
After a while I convinced myself that the curve on the board was too much. Instead of being a 20 foot sphere it was going to be more like 5 feet. At that point I stopped using the board and did the rest by hand, using a sanding block with the same paper.
Constantly checking using a straight edge and holding it up to the light. Eventually after about 4 hours, from starting, I'd had enough and decided to give it a test.

Used an old beater razor and sewing machine oil.
View attachment 1003811
Worked better then I expected.

I know it's probably not as accurate as one of Jarrod's. But it seems to work and it definately has a slight ridge running up the middle of the stone. The razor will not lie flat on the stone anywhere.
In one of Jarrod's videos, he does say that not all of the convex stones he makes will be exactly the same, and that the honer will get a feel for the shape through use.

I'm looking forward to trying it with ballistol, because it might help me to see the contour of the stone better and exactly where the blade makes contact.

I'm happy with it. Not sure I would consider doing another though.

You won't need another. At least I don't see how you would. It should be a multigenerational stone.

Other than the labor involved you make it sound easy. I'm sure it wasn't.

 

[Somerled]

You won't need another. At least I don't see how you would.

I had been thinking about getting a translucent and maybe a soft ark as well.
If I did then I would be tempted to convex them.

Not sure I will though.

I like the coticules I have and this Ark just gives me more options for finishing.

 

[kohalajohn]

Well done.

I must say, I'd just pay Jarrod.

What's interesting is that Jarrod will sell a convex black translucent ark for what seems the same price as buying a flat one from Dan's. I'm guessing he's buying it wholesale from Dan's, putting in two or three hours of labour and then selling it for a small markup, up to normal retail prices. He must be working for minimum wage. He must like grinding.

I'm almost tempted to buy a second one from him, just in case he gets sick of it and stops. I feel like a prepper when I think this way. Hide them in the back of my gun safe, behind a sign saying "Come and take 'em!"

Anyway.

Now hang on, some blasphemy is coming.

This morning I honed my fifty year old, second generation fili #14 on my convex black ark (cba). This fili has been on the ark for a long while now. And compared it to a new dovo bismarck maintained on .1u diamond balsa. The dovo has been maintained on diamond balsa for a long time now.

I shaved one side of my face with one and the other side with the other. And kept comparing as I did additional passes.

Damn, the cba fili did better. Felt like a nicer shave, seemed sharper.

Hard to believe. The diamond balsa is like 200k grit. A stone can't be sharper than that.

Maybe subjective bias is in play. I want the ark to be better, as I prefer honing on it to stropping on balsa. So my brain fools itself.

Maybe the fili is just a better razor. Maybe one razor takes to one method better.

What I should do is make it fair. Maybe reverse things. start maintaining the old fili on balsa and the bismarck on the ark and see what happens.

I have a second bismarck, identical blade. I should start maintaining that second bismark on the ark and compare it to the sister razor maintained on the balsa.

I'll let you know how it goes.

I think a difference between the ark and the balsa is that if you keep going with the ark, honing it forward more than it is going backward in shaving, it keeps getting better. diamond balsa quickly gets up to that very sharp stage and just holds there. Diamond balsa is precise that way. It is exactly 200k and that's it.

I have been giving the fili the ark once every week, regardless of how often I shaved with it. and some weeks it did no shaving at all. So over the months, that fili is just getting better and better. I mean a lot a lot of honing.

I don't think "grit" is a thing, when you talk about arks. The ark is just a dense slippery piece of marble. It doesn't "take" you to a level or plateau of grit degree. Rather, the razor just gets more and more burnished until it reaches the maximum for that razor's metallurgy and geometry.

I think if you find a razor that can keep on improving, then perhaps that is a razor for a dense ark. Because that razor might eventually even surpass diamond balsa. I think my second generation filarmonica #14 might be such a razor.

I should take a gold dollar and give it the ark. If my theory is right, the gold dollar would have a lower level at which it would "max out". It would be less impressive. Its metallurgy and geometry is adequate but not stellar.

And a swedish, CV Hjelstrand? I don't own one yet. But holy smoke batman, that hard swedish steel would take forever to progress on our slow arks, but the improvement might keep on going up to stratospheric levels before it maxed out.

Hmmmm. I really should get Hjelstrand and find out.

 

[Somerled]

Well done.

I must say, I'd just pay Jarrod.

What's interesting is that Jarrod will sell a convex black translucent ark for what seems the same price as buying a flat one from Dan's. I'm guessing he's buying it wholesale from Dan's, putting in two or three hours of labour and then selling it for a small markup, up to normal retail prices. He must be working for minimum wage. He must like grinding.

I'm almost tempted to buy a second one from him, just in case he gets sick of it and stops. I feel like a prepper when I think this way. Hide them in the back of my gun safe, behind a sign saying "Come and take 'em!"

Anyway.

Now hang on, some blasphemy is coming.

This morning I honed my fifty year old, second generation fili #14 on my convex black ark (cba). This fili has been on the ark for a long while now. And compared it to a new dovo bismarck maintained on .1u diamond balsa. The dovo has been maintained on diamond balsa for a long time now.

I shaved one side of my face with one and the other side with the other. And kept comparing as I did additional passes.

Damn, the cba fili did better. Felt like a nicer shave, seemed sharper.

Hard to believe. The diamond balsa is like 200k grit. A stone can't be sharper than that.

Maybe subjective bias is in play. I want the ark to be better, as I prefer honing on it to stropping on balsa. So my brain fools itself.

Maybe the fili is just a better razor. Maybe one razor takes to one method better.

What I should do is make it fair. Maybe reverse things. start maintaining the old fili on balsa and the bismarck on the ark and see what happens.

I have a second bismarck, identical blade. I should start maintaining that second bismark on the ark and compare it to the sister razor maintained on the balsa.

I'll let you know how it goes.

I think a difference between the ark and the balsa is that if you keep going with the ark, honing it forward more than it is going backward in shaving, it keeps getting better. diamond balsa quickly gets up to that very sharp stage and just holds there. Diamond balsa is precise that way. It is exactly 200k and that's it.

I have been giving the fili the ark once every week, regardless of how often I shaved with it. and some weeks it did no shaving at all. So over the months, that fili is just getting better and better. I mean a lot a lot of honing.

I don't think "grit" is a thing, when you talk about arks. The ark is just a dense slippery piece of marble. It doesn't "take" you to a level or plateau of grit degree. Rather, the razor just gets more and more burnished until it reaches the maximum for that razor's metallurgy and geometry.

I think if you find a razor that can keep on improving, then perhaps that is a razor for a dense ark. Because that razor might eventually even surpass diamond balsa. I think my second generation filarmonica #14 might be such a razor.

I should take a gold dollar and give it the ark. If my theory is right, the gold dollar would have a lower level at which it would "max out". It would be less impressive. Its metallurgy and geometry is adequate but not stellar.

And a swedish, CV Hjelstrand? I don't own one yet. But holy smoke batman, that hard swedish steel would take forever to progress on our slow arks, but the improvement might keep on going up to stratospheric levels before it maxed out.

Hmmmm. I really should get Hjelstrand and find out.

So far I've honed a Tanifuji, 1st gen Fili 13, and a seriously worn out and wonky George Butler Sheffield. All have come out with wonderful edges.

Just waiting on the ballistol before I do any more.

I'll take what your saying on board though, and give more time on the stone to the ones I've honed already to see if they get better.

 

[bluesman 7]

Maybe the fili is just a better razor. Maybe one razor takes to one method better.

Maybe the bevel angles are different.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Well done.

I must say, I'd just pay Jarrod.

What's interesting is that Jarrod will sell a convex black translucent ark for what seems the same price as buying a flat one from Dan's. I'm guessing he's buying it wholesale from Dan's, putting in two or three hours of labour and then selling it for a small markup, up to normal retail prices. He must be working for minimum wage. He must like grinding.

I'm almost tempted to buy a second one from him, just in case he gets sick of it and stops. I feel like a prepper when I think this way. Hide them in the back of my gun safe, behind a sign saying "Come and take 'em!"

Anyway.

Now hang on, some blasphemy is coming.

This morning I honed my fifty year old, second generation fili #14 on my convex black ark (cba). This fili has been on the ark for a long while now. And compared it to a new dovo bismarck maintained on .1u diamond balsa. The dovo has been maintained on diamond balsa for a long time now.

I shaved one side of my face with one and the other side with the other. And kept comparing as I did additional passes.

Damn, the cba fili did better. Felt like a nicer shave, seemed sharper.

Hard to believe. The diamond balsa is like 200k grit. A stone can't be sharper than that.

Maybe subjective bias is in play. I want the ark to be better, as I prefer honing on it to stropping on balsa. So my brain fools itself.

Maybe the fili is just a better razor. Maybe one razor takes to one method better.

What I should do is make it fair. Maybe reverse things. start maintaining the old fili on balsa and the bismarck on the ark and see what happens.

I have a second bismarck, identical blade. I should start maintaining that second bismark on the ark and compare it to the sister razor maintained on the balsa.

I'll let you know how it goes.

I think a difference between the ark and the balsa is that if you keep going with the ark, honing it forward more than it is going backward in shaving, it keeps getting better. diamond balsa quickly gets up to that very sharp stage and just holds there. Diamond balsa is precise that way. It is exactly 200k and that's it.

I have been giving the fili the ark once every week, regardless of how often I shaved with it. and some weeks it did no shaving at all. So over the months, that fili is just getting better and better. I mean a lot a lot of honing.

I don't think "grit" is a thing, when you talk about arks. The ark is just a dense slippery piece of marble. It doesn't "take" you to a level or plateau of grit degree. Rather, the razor just gets more and more burnished until it reaches the maximum for that razor's metallurgy and geometry.

I think if you find a razor that can keep on improving, then perhaps that is a razor for a dense ark. Because that razor might eventually even surpass diamond balsa. I think my second generation filarmonica #14 might be such a razor.

I should take a gold dollar and give it the ark. If my theory is right, the gold dollar would have a lower level at which it would "max out". It would be less impressive. Its metallurgy and geometry is adequate but not stellar.

And a swedish, CV Hjelstrand? I don't own one yet. But holy smoke batman, that hard swedish steel would take forever to progress on our slow arks, but the improvement might keep on going up to stratospheric levels before it maxed out.

Hmmmm. I really should get Hjelstrand and find out.

I missed the blasphemy. What was it?

Very interesting how you're continuing to hone the razor weekly regardless of use in an effort to see where or if it max's out. I like it.



I'm a bit torn. My most perfect edge (at least for the moment) is the razor I call my Wide Torrey. Should I leave it alone since it's perfect or should I hone it every week in an effort to make it even more perfect?

Is there a max beyond perfect? Is there a downside?

Of course there's the matter of subjectivity. I'm curious, and I doubt there's such a thing as an edge which is beyond perfect to its detriment or mine, but...I'm torn.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Basil]

And a swedish, CV Hjelstrand? I don't own one yet. But holy smoke batman, that hard swedish steel would take forever to progress on our slow arks, but the improvement might keep on going up to stratospheric levels before it maxed out.

I’ve been doing this exact thing with my mk 10

Both have been getting some laps on the convex ark after every shave. I saw an improvement on the mk10 the first two times. The third time was a little but better and the 4th the same. I feel like it’s at that point where it’s pretty maxed out and you won’t find much of a difference if you keep going. But I still do about 20 laps just to see what will happen lol

 

[kohalajohn]

Jim, I'd keep honing it.

It's not like a jnat process where you keep adding slurry and accidentally create a thick avalanche of slurry to crash the edge into, causing you to go backwards.

There's no slurry here. You're just gliding the edge over the tops of the novaculite, just giving them a high five as you pass by, to quote Slash. In fact, the common complaint about arks is how slow they are.

Eventually your razor will just stop improving. You may already be there. But hey, find out.

What's got me curious is why some razors keep on improving while others top out early. Maybe bevel angle, as bluesman has recently said.

What is it about your Torrey that means the ark keeps improving it? I note you call it a Wide. Maybe it is the width of those wide razors, that is the reason. The huge length of the triangle means the bevel lies at a more flat, a more acute angle.

Certainly, as I said earlier, the razor in my rotation that is really benefiting from lots of ark honing is my fili #14, which is either 7/8 or 8/8 depending how you measure.

Coincidence?

And how then would this geometry issue actually cause this effect? I know that .1u diamond has an edge that will still cut, even at that tiny size. So that puts an end to how far you can go. If you keep going with diamond balsa, the diamond will just keep cutting away at the edge, removing edge. Very finely, of course, it's nice and sharp, but that edge will keep retreating toward the spine as you go. It won't get more narrow, it will just continue getting eaten up by the diamond.

With a flat smooth ark surface, maybe we are more like burnishing. More like smooshing the edge, as we do with stropping on leather. Since we are not cutting away much of the edge, that edge remains out there, being massaged over and over and getting narrower and narrower without scootching back toward the spine.

To a final point of course. Determined by metallurgy. The edge can only get so narrow at the very tip before it just breaks down. Tiny particles chip off, fins and foils are created.

So you want an acute angle. So that the tip of the edge is held safely up. Too obtuse and the edge is facing directly into the honing medium, being ground away if you hone for too long.

And if the steel is also very hard, it can withstand being made very thin.

Maybe that's what your Wide Torry is.

Do you have a cv hjelstrand? I don't so can only guess. If you do, give it months and months on your ark. If I'm right, it should be a razor that goes a long distance on an ark.

Have fun.

 

[kohalajohn]

I’ve been doing this exact thing with my mk 10

Both have been getting some laps on the convex ark after every shave. I saw an improvement on the mk10 the first two times. The third time was a little but better and the 4th the same. I feel like it’s at that point where it’s pretty maxed out and you won’t find much of a difference if you keep going. But I still do about 20 laps just to see what will happen lol

View attachment 1003860

Well done. Yeah, keep us advised.

Do you use ballistol each time? I was thinking about some easy way to use an ark every shave, as I do with diamond balsa. I thought maybe leave it on the counter in its box, and leave the ballistol on it.

An advantage is that after every shave it would leave a protective oil on the razor while the the razor is put away. Next morning wash the ballistol off the razor, strop on leather, then shave. Then a quick turn on the already oiled ark before putting it away again. Close the lid on the wooden box, otherwise airborne dust particles would get stuck in the oil.

I'd only do this on my wide 8/8 fili. I'm curious about whether razors with acute bevels and hard steel can go really far with an ark. I'll find out. I don't think a gold dollar would go as far.

As an aside, this may be the only way I could return to straight razor shaving when in hawaii. Last time the humidity of the tropics rusted my lovely bismarcks. This method would force me to keep them oiled at all times.

 

[Basil]

Well done. Yeah, keep us advised

I will keep you all updated!

I used ballistol a few times. I prefer using a drop of dish soap or lather after my shave. Do some laps then I strop on fabric and leather and oil the blade and put it away.

I don’t always use my mk10 or the same razor back to back so I’m in the habit of oiling the blade each time I use it.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I never oil my blades.

The razors I use live in cases like this one. I buy these from Jarrod at Superior Shave. He says to use no oil on razors stored in them unless the oil permits the evaporation of water (which Ballistol does).

I am definitely interested in maxing out the edges at least until they seem perfect and maybe beyond that.

This Kukri got more time on the stones today. It's sharper I think. It's not max'd out yet I think. Still, it was a very nice edge before today's work.

I don't see that the width of the razor matters when it comes to sharpening the edge. Obviously the razor's geometry matters as does the spine width.

I suspect the main thing is the quality of the steel and the steel's qualities coupled with how the steel was taken from raw material to a fully manufactured and ready to sell status. The blacksmithing, etc.

Can anybody think of a good reason to believe all straight razors are of equal quality? Surely not. Just following the common advice I've assembled a number of pretty good straights and dealt with most of them (some, not yet). I've also discovered that some blades and some steels and some brands seem to be better than others. Not saying most aren't darn good.

I have no Swedish razors of any kind.

Yes, that's a deficit in my collection. Yes, it will be remedied sometime. I just haven't come across the right razor at the right price.

From a certain (and valid I think) point of view I could do one of two things and be fine.

• I could get rid of all of my razors except the Japanese razors (I have seven good ones).
• I could select a finite number of razors (7 or 14 or 21?) and get rid of the rest.

I could focus on a smaller number and be satisfied but what would be the fun in it. I've not tried a Fili, or a French Thiers or a Swedish razor. I'm of the opinion that I don't need a hundred straight razors, but that doesn't mean I don't want to have a collection of truly great razors which work for me as well as any straight could work + are fun to use + are fun to look at and enjoy.

In other words I'm still learning a lot. I also have a limited pocketbook and a wife with opinions.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[kohalajohn]

Glad you're having fun Jim. That's what it's all about.

By the way I may have already disproved my theory about wide blades liking arks. This evening I took a normal width bismarck, one that has been maintained on balsa, and gave it hundreds of laps on the cba.

And it gave a very good shave. I mean, really good. I hesitate to say, but it may have made it feel better, to me, than it was when it was living in balsa land.

I know it's a good shave because I actually do have a baby's bum to compare this to. (Donald is in his room now, at one year of age, making his end of the day complaints about being in baby jail for the night).

Now that I have one new dovo bismarck on cba and one new dovo bismarck on balsa, I'll soon find out the differences between sister blades.

I did the hundreds of laps on the cba, then washed, dried and stropped it, and shaved. Then gave it ten laps on the cba. Then put the lid on the cba box, leaving the ballistol on the stone. Then put the razor back in the cigar box, still with the film of ballistol on it.

Tomorrow I'll take out the oily bismarck, wash, dry and stop it, shave and again the ten laps and put it away again. And repeating.

I'll see if it keeps improving.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Glad you're having fun Jim. That's what it's all about.

By the way I may have already disproved my theory about wide blades liking arks. This evening I took a normal width bismarck, one that has been maintained on balsa, and gave it hundreds of laps on the cba.

And it gave a very good shave. I mean, really good. I hesitate to say, but it may have made it feel better, to me, than it was when it was living in balsa land.

I know it's a good shave because I actually do have a baby's bum to compare this to. (Donald is in his room now, at one year of age, making his end of the day complaints about being in baby jail for the night).

Now that I have one new dovo bismarck on cba and one new dovo bismarck on balsa, I'll soon find out the differences between sister blades.

I did the hundreds of laps on the cba, then washed, dried and stropped it, and shaved. Then gave it ten laps on the cba. Then put the lid on the cba box, leaving the ballistol on the stone. Then put the razor back in the cigar box, still with the film of ballistol on it.

Tomorrow I'll take out the oily bismarck, wash, dry and stop it, shave and again the ten laps and put it away again. And repeating.

I'll see if it keeps improving.

Interesting experiment.

 

[Twelvefret]

Can anybody think of a good reason to believe all straight razors are of equal quality? Surely not. Just following the common advice I've assembled a number of pretty good straights and dealt with most of them (some, not yet). I've also discovered that some blades and some steels and some brands seem to be better than others. Not saying most aren't darn good.

Jim

Does quality matter when it comes to the shave or how easy it is to hone? I don't know, but I think it's a legitimate consideration. I'm not a fan of SS knives like the steel used in my Cold Steel hiking blade. I prefer old Boker Barlows with a high carbon content that sharpen more easily.

One thing I have noticed since going back to diamond paste is my razors are more consistent shave wise than on the MMTT Thuringian alone. I'm sure part of this is because of my experience on stones. Who knows?

 

[kohalajohn]

Twelve, I am developing the belief that yes, it's the ongoing experience that's making things better for us.

I keep noticing on this forum, that people keep reporting better results. Well, it's not that the stones or pastes are getting any better.

I think we're just talking among ourselves, sharing information, practicing a whole lot.

 

[Twelvefret]

Twelve, I am developing the belief that yes, it's the ongoing experience that's making things better for us.

I keep noticing on this forum, that people keep reporting better results. Well, it's not that the stones or pastes are getting any better.

I think we're just talking among ourselves, sharing information, practicing a whole lot.

Well stated, sir!

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Twelve, I am developing the belief that yes, it's the ongoing experience that's making things better for us.

I keep noticing on this forum, that people keep reporting better results. Well, it's not that the stones or pastes are getting any better.

I think we're just talking among ourselves, sharing information, practicing a whole lot.

I agree.

One bit of information which is, I think, helping a bunch of people is the notion that one can continue to hone on an Ark an edge which is already quite nice and get it even nicer. This translates into a lot of things including the notion that a stable of honing stones need not be very large or very expensive.

I'm pretty sure I could get by with the following stuff and nothing else and do with this kit all my routine straight razor maintenance and honing + all the honing associated with rehabbing eBay specials (razors which might have chips and such).

• Shapton 400 (for rehab work only).
• Chosera 1K and/or Washita.
• Double Convex Arkansas (which has both a soft Ark and a hard translucent Ark finishing stone; it's two stones glued together to make one stone).

That's a pretty small kit. Still, if all you're doing is honing razors which were sharp but need some refreshing a convex Ark finishing stone would be all you'd need.

Thing is you can go a long long way with an Arkansas finishing stone.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Ufgoodies]

One bit of information which is, I think, helping a bunch of people is the notion that one can continue to hone on an Ark an edge which is already quite nice and get it even nicer. This translates into a lot of things including the notion that a stable of honing stones need not be very large or very expensive.

I think that this is one of the things that more experienced honers have tried getting across with little success. "Arcs are very slow" or "after 700 laps on my translucent I got a good edge." There's even the random "A charnley was used on swedish steel more often than arcs because they're just too slow". As in there's question whether or not the Swedish steel would be too hard for an arkansas to finish...efficiently.

 

[kohalajohn]

Well, I agree with Jim that it can be done with few stones. And I admire the elegance of minimalism.

A pair for the lower end being about 400/1200 for repair/bevel. And it can certainly be the stones Jim lists. Myself, it's an atoma 400 plate with an atoma 1200 pad glued to the back. Less cool than real stones, but functional.

Then yes, a convex soft ark glued to the back of a convex black translucent ark. ($115) So I could get by on a desert island with just these two double backed items. And they are self maintaining and will last for many years. And you can use just water if you have to. It's a very "prepper" way to go.

I say that I admire the elegance of minimalism. But not in my out loud voice as my wife would just point to the collection of rocks, plates, balsas, pastes, and lapping plates that are now filling up multiple drawers.

 

[kohalajohn]

Well done. Yeah, keep us advised.

Do you use ballistol each time? I was thinking about some easy way to use an ark every shave, as I do with diamond balsa. I thought maybe leave it on the counter in its box, and leave the ballistol on it.

An advantage is that after every shave it would leave a protective oil on the razor while the the razor is put away. Next morning wash the ballistol off the razor, strop on leather, then shave. Then a quick turn on the already oiled ark before putting it away again. Close the lid on the wooden box, otherwise airborne dust particles would get stuck in the oil.

I'd only do this on my wide 8/8 fili. I'm curious about whether razors with acute bevels and hard steel can go really far with an ark. I'll find out. I don't think a gold dollar would go as far.

As an aside, this may be the only way I could return to straight razor shaving when in hawaii. Last time the humidity of the tropics rusted my lovely bismarcks. This method would force me to keep them oiled at all times.

Ok, well that was another bad idea. It seemed so smart in my mind.

You'll remember that I was going to leave the oil on the stone overnight, to easily do a quick hone with every shave.

I thought keeping the lid on the wooden box would stop dust and grit collecting on the stone.

Wrong. I started the first lap and heard a horrible scritch. I felt and dislodged two separate pieces of grit that somehow got on there. And a hair. What? How was that? Even with the lid on?

Anyway, washed it clean, dried it, added oil and did a quick hone. And left it oily for tomorrow morning. But I'm pretty sure this is a bad idea. Of course this is why nobody else does this. Leaving oil on your stone just sucks in dust and debris from the air, and the debris will scratch your edge.

So I think I'm just back to my Saturday morning routine. Set aside some time, get a big pot of coffee, get everything clean, and enjoy taking care of my week's rotation. Keep my weekday routine simple. Just strop and shave. Save the honing for the weekend when I can pay attention to it.

And the two razors that I have picked out for being maxed out on the ark, I'll still do that. My 1960's fili #14 and my new dovo bismarck. Every Saturday I'll give them a hundred or more laps on the black ark, regardless of whether they saw any use that week. I'll see how far they can keep improving. And if one can improve further than the other.

Certainly, the shave I had this morning was very nice. It was on the dovo that had previously been a diamond balsa edge. I've now moved it over to be the large number of laps on the ark, edge.

Live and learn.