Convex club.

[kohalajohn]

So Jim, it's a convex white translucent? If it's the one I think it is, it's as hard as a black translucent, but Jarrod thinks the feel or feedback of a white is a bit more noticeable.

I was thinking about buying that one, if I was going to get a second one. Totally don't need it, but it's cool.

Let me know how the ballistol undercut looks on it. I thought that it would not show up as well on a white as on a black.

But I am very interested in the feel. If the feel gives good feedback maybe you don't need the visual feedback as much.

I still need the visual feedback. I have a bad habit, when coming down to the bottom right corner, of letting the toe rise up. When I see the toe rise above the undercut I know I've been lazy and let my hand drop down. The toe is getting no attention.

The problem doesn't happen on the return. I think because on the return, my hand is pulled in tight to my body and I naturally keep the razor up and therefore the toe is down and in contact with the stone.

I think it's partly due to the size of the stone. It's eight inches long and I have to remember to keep my hand up at the far end of it.

Hope it works out well for you. How large is it?

 

[kelbro]

I still need the visual feedback. I have a bad habit, when coming down to the bottom right corner, of letting the toe rise up. When I see the toe rise above the undercut I know I've been lazy and let my hand drop down. The toe is getting no attention.

The problem doesn't happen on the return. I think because on the return, my hand is pulled in tight to my body and I naturally keep the razor up and therefore the toe is down and in contact with the stone.

I think it's partly due to the size of the stone. It's eight inches long and I have to remember to keep my hand up at the far end of it.

Try moving the stone around to different orientations on the table. The biggest change for me was when I combined that with different table heights. It can really make a difference in the quality of your strokes.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I think Jarrod has or had more than one white translucent convex.

The one I've got coming is the Norton. It's vintage but modern. I think it's the same stone I already have but convexed. It is 8x3.

I don't see on the convex stone much of the kind of undercut I'm used to seeing on flat stones. I almost don't look for it anymore.

I know very little about honing on the convex stone. Mostly just what I've picked up from you and Jarrod and doing some round trips on the stone. If I understand it right the entirety of the blade is touching the stone on every lap, but only one part of the edge at any one time touches the stone. Is that right?

If it is I think there would be only undercut where the blade is touching, but the patterns I see on the stone (the fluid patterns) seem all over the place to me. Whatever that means?

The edge becomes sharp for sure so something's right. Mostly I'm going by some sort of deeply Zen thing.

Spoiler: Which means...

Which pretty much means I have no idea what I'm doing but it seems to be working.

It'll be interesting to see what the white translucent convex feels like and how it works.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[kohalajohn]

Yeah Jim, you have it right.

Only one part touches the convex stone as you go.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Yeah Jim, you have it right.

Only one part touches the convex stone as you go.

Thanks.

Do you believe then that the undercut fluid patterns would therefore be far less useful with the convex stone than with a flat stone?

I'm only trying to understand what I see and how to use all the feedback to my best advantage. Also, to make the point that I'm not worried about losing the visual feedback of the white Ballistol/water mixture when I move to using the white translucent convex stone.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[kohalajohn]

Yeah, Jim, it seems counterintuitive that we still have undercut on a convex stone. We shouldn't, right?

But we do. I think it's because the curve is so gradual. The stone is the top of a sphere twenty feet in diameter. It's almost flat.

That, combined with the fact that hollow ground razors are flexible, means that about a quarter inch of the edge is in contact.

And that's what I see when I talk about undercut. Just a quarter inch.

When a flat razor is on a flat stone, we see undercut along the whole length of the edge, from heel to toe. But on a convex stone it's different. I only see a quarter inch of white ballistol being pushed up as undercut.

When I start the x stroke, I am heel leading and am starting to go up the hill. So the undercut is at the heel. As I move from the top left, up across the hill and then down and across to the bottom right, I see the little quarter inch of undercut move along the length of the edge, toward the toe.

I like that feedback, as I see the convexity doing its business. I know my touch is correct as I see the undercut move.

And at the very end of the x stroke I see the bit of undercut at the toe. Or sometimes I don't. Because I wasn't paying attention and dropped my wrist at the end, meaning the toe is lifted up in the air, not even touching the stone.

With a convex stone the tells are different. On a flat stone you start off with no undercut because your razors isn't sharp yet. Then eventually you get undercut. All at once and all along the whole length. And you know from that, that your razor is now sharp. It's scooching under the fluid.

A flat stone also gives you the tell of suction, or stiction. When everything is very flat and your razor becomes very sharp, the entire length of the edge can create enough of a vacuum that you feel it. I don't get stiction on my convex. So I don't have that tell.

I hear other folk report stiction on their convex. Maybe they have more flexible razors or maybe their hands are more sensitive to a subtle tell than I am.

So yeah, we get undercut on a convex. But it looks different and it tells you different things.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Yeah, Jim, it seems counterintuitive that we still have undercut on a convex stone. We shouldn't, right?

But we do. I think it's because the curve is so gradual. The stone is the top of a sphere twenty feet in diameter. It's almost flat.

That, combined with the fact that hollow ground razors are flexible, means that about a quarter inch of the edge is in contact.

And that's what I see when I talk about undercut. Just a quarter inch.

When a flat razor is on a flat stone, we see undercut along the whole length of the edge, from heel to toe. But on a convex stone it's different. I only see a quarter inch of white ballistol being pushed up as undercut.

When I start the x stroke, I am heel leading and am starting to go up the hill. So the undercut is at the heel. As I move from the top left, up across the hill and then down and across to the bottom right, I see the little quarter inch of undercut move along the length of the edge, toward the toe.

I like that feedback, as I see the convexity doing its business. I know my touch is correct as I see the undercut move.

And at the very end of the x stroke I see the bit of undercut at the toe. Or sometimes I don't. Because I wasn't paying attention and dropped my wrist at the end, meaning the toe is lifted up in the air, not even touching the stone.

With a convex stone the tells are different. On a flat stone you start off with no undercut because your razors isn't sharp yet. Then eventually you get undercut. All at once and all along the whole length. And you know from that, that your razor is now sharp. It's scooching under the fluid.

A flat stone also gives you the tell of suction, or stiction. When everything is very flat and your razor becomes very sharp, the entire length of the edge can create enough of a vacuum that you feel it. I don't get stiction on my convex. So I don't have that tell.

I hear other folk report stiction on their convex. Maybe they have more flexible razors or maybe their hands are more sensitive to a subtle tell than I am.

So yeah, we get undercut on a convex. But it looks different and it tells you different things.

Yes, that makes sense. Three is a little bit of true undercut.

I'm one who sometimes notices "some" stiction with the convex stone. It's not much.

 

[kohalajohn]

Jim, when your convex white translucent arrives, let me know if you can sense any stiction on it. Jarrod's being careful to keep his sagitta the same, but it's a different stone from the black translucent you and I have. I'm curious about the ways in which it will differ.

Jarrod says the "feel" on a white is different, but I don't know what that means.

And I think you have a flat hard ark. Do you get noticeably more stiction feel on that? I'd think you would....

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Jim, when your convex white translucent arrives, let me know if you can sense any stiction on it. Jarrod's being careful to keep his sagitta the same, but it's a different stone from the black translucent you and I have. I'm curious about the ways in which it will differ.

Jarrod says the "feel" on a white is different, but I don't know what that means.

And I think you have a flat hard ark. Do you get noticeably more stiction feel on that? I'd think you would....

I have two flat Arkansas 8x3 stones.

• One's a Dan's Hard Black. That's their hardest, most dense Ark. I bought it from Sharpening Supplies but Dan mined it.
• The other is a Hard Translucent Arkansas by Norton. It's white. Norton says it is their finest stone.

I've not used either of these recently, but I remember well enough using them. I liked my Dan's stone just fine, but mostly used the Norton stone once I had it. Why? It simply felt better to me. I'm not able to describe exactly how it feels different from the black stone, but it does. It also looks pretty.

Is the edge off the Norton Translucent stone better than the edge off Dan's Hard Black? Not that I was ever able to appreciate.

Yes, there's much more stiction on my flat stones including flat Arks.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

So Jim, it's a convex white translucent? If it's the one I think it is, it's as hard as a black translucent, but Jarrod thinks the feel or feedback of a white is a bit more noticeable.

I was thinking about buying that one, if I was going to get a second one. Totally don't need it, but it's cool.

Let me know how the ballistol undercut looks on it. I thought that it would not show up as well on a white as on a black.

But I am very interested in the feel. If the feel gives good feedback maybe you don't need the visual feedback as much.

I still need the visual feedback. I have a bad habit, when coming down to the bottom right corner, of letting the toe rise up. When I see the toe rise above the undercut I know I've been lazy and let my hand drop down. The toe is getting no attention.

The problem doesn't happen on the return. I think because on the return, my hand is pulled in tight to my body and I naturally keep the razor up and therefore the toe is down and in contact with the stone.

I think it's partly due to the size of the stone. It's eight inches long and I have to remember to keep my hand up at the far end of it.

Hope it works out well for you. How large is it?

I've used it only once, but really liked the feel. Using Ballistol/water mixed I had zero problems distinguishing the lubricant from the stone. The fluid is a different shade of white from the stone. It's not even a bit difficult for me to see undercut and such.

Not that everyone's eyes are the same.

 

[kohalajohn]

Jim, I was just talking with a forum member who, when he travels, brings along extra gold dollars to gift to his wet shaving friends.

A nice idea, but you have to be prepared to deal with their questions about maintenance. And good god, what do you say to that huge question?

I think you just give the newbie the whipped dog starter kit. the poor man's strop and the pasted balsa. If they get into straights, and they may not, then you send them to Jarrod to get a black convex ark.

Most people say let the beginner have a nani12. Super easy and reliable and good. And yes that's true, but you also have to buy an atoma 400 to lap the nani. And that's another eighty bucks.

You can give them an old diamond balsa, but then they eventually have to lap it. And a plate when it gets thin. And they have to buy new grit. And eventually new balsa. And glue and solvent to attach and remove the balsa from the backing plate.

A convex black ark you never need to lap. Jarrod, by convexing it, has built in a lifetime supply of anti concaving.

And the ark keeps supplying its own "grit" and for a lifetime, again for free.

And you don't need to get a backing plate.

It seems a convex black ark is the thing for a newbie. You give them a finished razor, so they never have to deal with bevel setting or mid range. They may spend the rest of their lives never needing anything below a convex black ark.

I think the internet and the convex black arks will make straight razor shaving more popular. And most shavers will just want to shave, not be into honing. black arks allow that.

I'm thinking about when my son gets of shaving age. He should get a convex black ark.

Jarrod, Tony Millar and doc226 are the three wise men that will take care of him.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Jim, I was just talking with a forum member who, when he travels, brings along extra gold dollars to gift to his wet shaving friends.

A nice idea, but you have to be prepared to deal with their questions about maintenance. And good god, what do you say to that huge question?

I think you just give the newbie the whipped dog starter kit. the poor man's strop and the pasted balsa. If they get into straights, and they may not, then you send them to Jarrod to get a black convex ark.

Most people say let the beginner have a nani12. Super easy and reliable and good. And yes that's true, but you also have to buy an atoma 400 to lap the nani. And that's another eighty bucks.

You can give them an old diamond balsa, but then they eventually have to lap it. And a plate when it gets thin. And they have to buy new grit. And eventually new balsa. And glue and solvent to attach and remove the balsa from the backing plate.

A convex black ark you never need to lap. Jarrod, by convexing it, has built in a lifetime supply of anti concaving.

And the ark keeps supplying its own "grit" and for a lifetime, again for free.

And you don't need to get a backing plate.

It seems a convex black ark is the thing for a newbie. You give them a finished razor, so they never have to deal with bevel setting or mid range. They may spend the rest of their lives never needing anything below a convex black ark.

I think the internet and the convex black arks will make straight razor shaving more popular. And most shavers will just want to shave, not be into honing. black arks allow that.

I'm thinking about when my son gets of shaving age. He should get a convex black ark.

Jarrod, Tony Millar and doc226 are the three wise men that will take care of him.

Great view of things.

I'd probably suggest a DCA as the one stone solution, but the soft side is so inexpensive that it doesn't all that much matter as an add on especially compared with buying a bunch of synthetics (or jnats). I find the soft side quite useful myself.

I'm glad to have the stones I have, but most of mine are not used at all now. All I use are the convexed Arks and the Chosera 1K (occasionally the SS 3K, too, but it's not really necessary). When I get my Shapton 320 (tomorrow?) I'll use that but only on restoration projects.

So, yes, I absolutely agree. A gentlemen new to the SR world could go a long way with just a black or white convex translucent Ark and an already truly shave ready razor and a strop.

Another thing about the convex Ark: I initially saw it as a very hard stone to use, hard to learn, etc. I was wrong. I made it hard to use by over thinking it, etc. It is actually almost foolproof (and teaching someone how to avoid the almost part of that caveat would be easy enough).

My grandson who occasionally talks about becoming a barber (and probably won't) doesn't shave because shaving has been a horrible experience for him. He's settled on a nice beard. He tends to be very well groomed. Anyway, he occasionally mentions that if he did shave it would be with a straight razor. I'd absolutely buy him a DCA were he diving into the deep end. Plus, I'd give him a nice and shave ready razor. He'd have to buy his own strop, but Slash mentioned one for sale on eBay at $8 or so which he says is pretty good.

It's going to be very interesting to teach your son what he needs to know to SR shave.

Back in college I knew two brothers who shaved with straights. They'd learned from their grandfather. They got more or less infinite points in the fraternity house communal shaving den (which was literally a shaving den in the mornings as all it had was a bunch of sinks and mirrors), points for being cool and manly and daring and old fashioned in the coolest and most hip way imaginable. Partly it was the razor of course, but it was also the deep grandfather connection.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[kohalajohn]

Yup, cba is easy to use. I have overcome my only issue, which was user error, allowing the toe end to rise at the outreach end. Now I keep a finger of my left hand on the toe, which keeps the whole edge properly on the stone. I can watch the ballistol quarter inch undercut move left to right, right to left, as I go.

I'd say to a newcomer, buy a new, plain dovo razor, an eighty dollar cba, a simpsons chubby no 1, a tub of proraso red, a sacrificial practice strop from whipped dog and then a good tony millar strop. And Pinaud's Club.

then every four years just buy a new tub of proraso ($10) and a new Pinaud's ($10) forever. Average five dollars a year as your shaving costs.

And stay away from Badger and Blade, at all costs.

 

[Basil]

And stay away from Badger and Blade, at all costs.

Haha so true! I was gone from the forum for maybe 4 years? Bought maybe a soap or two the whole time I was away. Come back here and it’s like wait I need that, oh that looks cool lol.


Also that list you wrote up is pretty much spot on for what to get as a newbie. Maybe a boar brush instead just to save some cash but other than that you’re golden.

 

[Somerled]

And stay away from Badger and Blade, at all costs.

Good advice . At least my wallet thinks so.

I've posted on Jim's thread about a hard black ark that I convexed myself a couple of weeks ago.
I have an 8x3x1 stone that I bought from Executive Shaving here in Scotland, it was my first natural stone.
Up until now, I've never used it all that much.

I've honed a few of my razors on it and most of them have improved their edges, to a greater or lesser degree. Last razor I tried was a wonky Sheffield, that, in the past has given me a hard time trying to get a good edge. Came up real nice off the convex Ark, most impressive, and as you say, it's easy to use.

Got some ballistol coming, so hopefully I'll be able to see the undercut better than with the sewing machine oil I'm using at the moment.
What sort of proportions of water to ballistol do you gents use?

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

What sort of proportions of water to ballistol do you gents use?

I've tried many B/w mixtures. Currently my mix is 1 to 2. Twice as much water. I've used 1 to 4, and 1 to 5, and straight Ballistol.

When using 1 to 2 a spray bottle of water is at hand so I can dilute as I feel like it. So sometimes I might be using 1 to 6, or 1 to 8.

I've read the "officially approved" mixture is maybe 1 part Ballistol to 4 parts water, but I don't see that it matters very much.

How much fluid to use? I don't think that matters much either. You'll pretty quickly find a mixture and an amount which seems right for you, but that might vary depending on all sorts of things. How things feel to you will be one of the variables.

After each honing session I wash the stone's surface with soap and warm water.

Am I doing it right? I have no idea.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[kohalajohn]

Yup, cba is easy to use. I have overcome my only issue, which was user error, allowing the toe end to rise at the outreach end. Now I keep a finger of my left hand on the toe, which keeps the whole edge properly on the stone. I can watch the ballistol quarter inch undercut move left to right, right to left, as I go.

I'd say to a newcomer, buy a new, plain dovo razor, an eighty dollar cba, a simpsons chubby no 1, a tub of proraso red, a sacrificial practice strop from whipped dog and then a good tony millar strop. And Pinaud's Club.

then every four years just buy a new tub of proraso ($10) and a new Pinaud's ($10) forever. Average five dollars a year as your shaving costs.

And stay away from Badger and Blade, at all costs.

I should add, the only reason I say go big money on the brush, is that if the lad doesn't go straights, he'll certainly go DE. Either way he'll be using a brush for the rest of his life and he'll end up buying a good one eventually. Cheaper to just buy his last brush first and just cry once.

 

[kohalajohn]

How much fluid to use? I don't think that matters much either. You'll pretty quickly find a mixture and an amount which seems right for you, but that might vary depending on all sorts of things. How things feel to you will be one of the variables.

Am I doing it right? I have no idea.


Jim[/QUOTE]

Jim, you're doing it right.

I don't measure. I just put in more water than ballistol.

And to Somerled, may I say:

In theory, more ballistol means more thickness which means the edge rides high over a pillow of thick oil , barely touching the sharp tops of the noviculite particles as it passes overhead, which means slower grinding which means longer time needed, which is what you want if you are already sharp and you're willing to spend time to slowly get to even more sharp, an even finer and more sophisticated edge.

More watery means it cuts faster. The edge drops down to make serious contact with the stone.

But the differences here are minimal. We're still talking arks. Very slow honing on a super dense slippery marble - like surface. Black translucents are finishers, slow, very fine finishers, no matter how you do your oil. We like them a lot. Most of us like diamond balsa for the same reasons.

One part ballistol to a few parts water is fine.

Somerled, tell us, how did you convex your ark? Or remind me of your link. Attempting such a process has brought strong men to tears.

Also. I use a chef's sauce applicator to shoot the watered down ballistol on the stone. Pic attached.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Nice.



I need to come across one of these.



My Ballistol mixture is in a small empty Cremo Moisturizer bottle because that's what I had handy. It works fine, but a larger bottle similar to yours would be better I think.

I bought the aerosol spray Ballistol first and then the liquid Ballistol. Both work. The liquid is much easier to use in a quantified mixture. With the spray mixing accurately is impossible unless you let the bubbles all go away which isn't worth the time it takes. However, both work. Also, I use the Ballistol spray directly on the stone to add thickness and also to hone with straight Ballistol.

You're right on the straight Ballistol being slower and all that you said, but I really pay no attention to stuff like that. With Ballistol and water on the Ark I think mostly it's just not important enough to care about.

I've also done some honing on the DCA under running water at the sink, as a final finishing step. However, I've abandoned that step. I'm not sure it adds anything.

Rule of thumb: If the razor isn't as sharp as you want it to be off the convex finishing stone, do another hundred or so round trips. If it's still not sharp enough, do another hundred or so round trips. Etc. Not forever of course, as it could be your razor is lousy or your bevel isn't set perfectly.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Somerled]

One part ballistol to a few parts water is fine.

Somerled, tell us, how did you convex your ark? Or remind me of your link. Attempting such a process has brought strong men to tears.

Thanks for the advice on ballistol, I'd guessed it would be a preference thing. Just wanted a rough idea what to start with.

As to how I convexed my ark. Your right, it's not something to be taken lightly.

I started with a slightly bowed, large wooden board and attached a sheet of 60 grit sandpaper to the apex of the bow.

Spent some time sanding it like you see above, then rotating the stone 90 degrees and sanding some more.
You can see the tram lines on the sandpaper from doing this.
After a while I convinced myself that the curve on the board was too much. Instead of being a 20 foot sphere it was going to be more like 5 feet. At that point I stopped using the board and did the rest by hand, using a sanding block with the same paper.
Constantly checking using a straight edge and holding it up to the light. Eventually after about 4 hours, from starting, I'd had enough and decided to give it a test.

Used an old beater razor and sewing machine oil.

Worked better then I expected.

I know it's probably not as accurate as one of Jarrod's. But it seems to work and it definately has a slight ridge running up the middle of the stone. The razor will not lie flat on the stone anywhere.
In one of Jarrod's videos, he does say that not all of the convex stones he makes will be exactly the same, and that the honer will get a feel for the shape through use.

I'm looking forward to trying it with ballistol, because it might help me to see the contour of the stone better and exactly where the blade makes contact.

I'm happy with it. Not sure I would consider doing another though.