Interesting - a guy on FB posted in hand photos of his new Karve SS.
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Karve Diem
- Thread starter East coast shaver
- Start date
Delivered by hand in the local area to where they are made as the person in question is about to go on deployment.
I love all the great info (thanks!) and nice people here at B&B, but threads like this puzzle me. Karve seems to be a one and a half man operation, and Rockwell not much bigger. But even with bigger, longer established companies, "pre-ordering" something that is still in the prototype stage is not the thing to do if you want smooth, fast, reliable service. Many of you guys no doubt have at least as much business experience as I, so you must already understand this.
Me, I'm not interested in "kickstarter" fundraisers. I'm not interested in being first in line to get the first version when they begin to trickle from the manufacturer. I'll wait until all the early adopters have theirs, the maker decides to come out with a "Version II" to address the defects in the first version, all the early adopters have that, and finally the maker goes to normal distribution channels and methods. If all that takes a couple of years, fine. If I end up paying more, fine, though sometimes I end up paying less. And if I end up unable to get it at all, so be it.
Life is far too short to spend any of it fuming at Karve or Rockwell.
Me, I'm not interested in "kickstarter" fundraisers. I'm not interested in being first in line to get the first version when they begin to trickle from the manufacturer. I'll wait until all the early adopters have theirs, the maker decides to come out with a "Version II" to address the defects in the first version, all the early adopters have that, and finally the maker goes to normal distribution channels and methods. If all that takes a couple of years, fine. If I end up paying more, fine, though sometimes I end up paying less. And if I end up unable to get it at all, so be it.
Life is far too short to spend any of it fuming at Karve or Rockwell.
No, poor form is preselling items that haven't been made yet and leading your customers to believe they're buying in-stock merchandise. That's what happened when I bought by brass Karve, so it doesn't look like they got their act together in the year since my order.
See bolded in the quote.
Have you seen a "Version II" of the brass Karve razor? To my knowledge there isn't one, because the manufacturer got it "right" before coming to market. The issue many are having is not with the product, but with the man, and his seeming inability to remedy past Customer Service issues with new releases.
This was not a preorder. This was a launch of product that was supposedly in stock for a certain amount.
Not to be a jerk, but I don’t think mozartman really understands the issue and is replying as to what he thinks is the issue rather than what is. It’s a long thread. I get it.
Chandu
I Waxed The Badger.
Exactly.
Karve was on my list of new stainless or brass DE's I'd consider purchasing. Now it may be back to just Timeless and Feather.
This does seem that may have been a buy in to fund production. If that was the case (not saying it is or isn't) but if it was it darn well should have been disclosed. As it is, lots of customers are getting restless and some walking away entirely.
If he hired a communication person, time to put them to work. Sounds like even if they weren't very good, it would be an improvement.
Didn't he say on IG that when he was getting ready to ship parts he noticed there was a problem with the passivation with the parts? I don't think it was a MFG'g hold up, it was that he had to find a different passivator last minute and didn't bother with notifying anyone!!
Hmm. I carefully read every word of this thread posted before my post. And I stand by every word of mine. When a manufacturer is still revising his manufacturing process, as Chris apparently is, according to his Instagram Q&A, as discussed in post #194 by DSR, in which he said he needed to change the passivation process, then for me he has not yet fully emerged from the prototype stage. And the "over-promis[ing]" and "under-deliver[ing]", that SaddleSC mentions in post #201, is a classic error committed by (usually) well-meaning but over-optimistic and sometimes unrealistic entrepreneurs who are trying to generate and maintain enthusiasm for a product that simply won't be ready as soon as they would hope and like. Because they are not intentionally lying or trying to defraud anyone, they often don't see the damage they are doing to their own credibility with a few careless words.
In my business (commercial law for over three decades) I deal with disputes that arise, sometimes with tens of millions of dollars at stake, based on problems exactly like the ones raised in this thread, but on a much larger scale. I see the same arguments, the same anger, over and over again. Now if you paid Karve money and didn't get it back, something that uptown admits in post #247 didn't happen to him, that is a different issue, one I have also seen many times over the years. In that case, my opinion would be different. But in a situation like this, one that I see over and over again in my work, the real problem is nearly always customers who jump too soon at a product where marketing and distribution channels, or even product development, are not complete and firmly established and proven. Customers usually make this mistake in the business world because they are drawn in by a promised ultra-low price or other too-good-to-be true promises. Here, I just see enthusiastic hobbyists who are frustrated at a delay in getting the latest shiny toy in their hands. So respectfully, if you think I don't understand the issue here, I think you are all wet.
All wet... with or without lather lol? Because one way burns, the other, not so much.
Again, you seem to neglect that Chris said he had razors ready. Not sort of ready. But ready for shipping. Is it an over zealous consumer that believes a CEO when he makes claims? That kind of stuff in your big world would have the SEC on your door. There are implied terms here. You should get that more than most. There is also the notion of reasonable. A month wait without word for something that was promised to be ready, is a breach of contract. Moreover, you keep assuming because he’s communicating on Instagram, that he’s communicating to his stakeholders. Grievous mistake.
Lawyers like you make the world for consumers ... trying.
Again, you seem to neglect that Chris said he had razors ready. Not sort of ready. But ready for shipping. Is it an over zealous consumer that believes a CEO when he makes claims? That kind of stuff in your big world would have the SEC on your door. There are implied terms here. You should get that more than most. There is also the notion of reasonable. A month wait without word for something that was promised to be ready, is a breach of contract. Moreover, you keep assuming because he’s communicating on Instagram, that he’s communicating to his stakeholders. Grievous mistake.
Lawyers like you make the world for consumers ... trying.
So . . . how's free agency going this NBA off-season?
All wet... with or without lather lol? Because one way burns, the other, not so much.
Again, you seem to neglect that Chris said he had razors ready. No, I saw that. Not sort of ready. But ready for shipping. Is it an over zealous consumer that believes a CEO when he makes claims? Depending on the context, yes. That kind of stuff in your big world would have the SEC on your door. Only if the claim involved securities, a very specific and specialized type of financial instrument. There are implied terms here. You should get that more than most. I do get that. There is also the notion of reasonable. A month wait without word for something that was promised to be ready, is a breach of contract. If he refunded your money, or you never paid any, even if there was a contract, and even if that contract was breached, both which I doubt, as it sounds like a mere contingency, where are the damages? Moreover, you keep assuming because he’s communicating on Instagram, that he’s communicating to his stakeholders. No, I don't assume that. And what do you mean by "stakeholders"? What stake can you have if you haven't made any payment? Grievous mistake.
Lawyers like you make the world for consumers ... trying. You're welcome. Where do I send you my bill?
I get what you are saying about damages. With so many substitute goods, I doubt any would be awarded. I’m with you on that. But at the end of the day, every customer who plopped down cash (about 100?) had an implied contract at worst, and expectation was wasn’t met. There’s no defending the situation. Just because the law isn’t going to deliver any kind of punitive damages, doesn’t make what he did any less shady, and it should not be defended. Particularly by an attorney (unless retained) in my opinion. It just promotes bad business practices.
“Stakeholders” refers to the multiple constituencies that are impacted by business entities, including owners/shareholders, customers, suppliers, employees, managers, creditors, government, and local communities. It’s not necessary to have made a payment to be a stakeholder.
It’s more of a business concept than a legal one, but I’m a little surprised you wouldn’t have come across it in your field of law.
Chandu
I Waxed The Badger.
You are not a customer if you haven't paid. The other roles have a stake ,they all can get hurt if the company goes under. I think the only role folks here have is likely that of a customer. If they haven't sent Karve money, they aren't a customer.
Look, I get it. No communication. Under delivery on timelines. Concern that what was promised was not what was provided. Same issues as with the brass. All of that is true. No question.
The issue for me really is, what did you all expect? He realized he had a problem with his product. Small operation and likely can’t fix as quickly as an Edwin Jagger could. He didn’t send out an inferior product. He fixed it. Could the communication have been better. Clearly. Should he have not posted stainless for sale on his site until he knew there were no issues? Yup.
But really, and again, what did you expect? For those of you who own a small business and are juggling manufacture, communications, payroll, finances, quality control and, oh yeah, a personal life and a family, you might understand how things can get away from you.
Just remember, we asked for this. For stainless. And we should have known there would be issues. Again, based on history, what did you expect?
What I do believe we all can expect, though, is an outstanding razor when it, finally, gets into our hands.
Oh, and for those of you wanting to cancel your order because it’s taking too long? Please hurry up and do so. I’m on the wait list and would appreciate it.
The issue for me really is, what did you all expect? He realized he had a problem with his product. Small operation and likely can’t fix as quickly as an Edwin Jagger could. He didn’t send out an inferior product. He fixed it. Could the communication have been better. Clearly. Should he have not posted stainless for sale on his site until he knew there were no issues? Yup.
But really, and again, what did you expect? For those of you who own a small business and are juggling manufacture, communications, payroll, finances, quality control and, oh yeah, a personal life and a family, you might understand how things can get away from you.
Just remember, we asked for this. For stainless. And we should have known there would be issues. Again, based on history, what did you expect?
What I do believe we all can expect, though, is an outstanding razor when it, finally, gets into our hands.
Oh, and for those of you wanting to cancel your order because it’s taking too long? Please hurry up and do so. I’m on the wait list and would appreciate it.
I am not interested in the stainless steel version of the CB razor, as I already have the brass one. I don't see the benefit of buying a razor which will shave similarly to and costs more than what I have.
I am afraid that what is described in the multiple pages of this thread, is a failure of communication which will hurt their business. IMHO they used Instagram because they wanted to communicate with prospective customers along with existing ones. They should have sent emails too, in an effort to reassure their customer base. I hope they learn from it and get things things sorted for the future.
I am afraid that what is described in the multiple pages of this thread, is a failure of communication which will hurt their business. IMHO they used Instagram because they wanted to communicate with prospective customers along with existing ones. They should have sent emails too, in an effort to reassure their customer base. I hope they learn from it and get things things sorted for the future.
Having watched his Instagram Q&A session, I understand most of the these points.
I certainly don’t think that he had a cunning plan to trick people into paying him money as some kind of GoFundMe scheme, as someone was wondering.
And I can understand why he’s struggling to catch up, being a very small business with three people on shop floor.
Two issues, though...
All this is very similar to what happened last year, with his brass razor, in general terms.
One would have hoped that he had learned from that, and therefore would avoid making all of the same mistakes. He repeatedly said he had learned some lessons, but that’s obviously not the case.
And what I can’t really understand at all is why his communication is so poor...?!
Which is, again, exactly what happened last year...
It would be so easy to put a note on his website or write an email to all customers, apologising and explaining the problem and how he’s working to fix it, and maybe giving some rough estimates on production and shipping times.
In fact several people have suggested that to him via email and on Instagram, and he himself said a couple of days after the failed release on June 26th that he was going to send a newsletter with updates. It’s now July 14th and still nothing.
I know he’s very busy trying to manufacture and ship razors, etc, etc, but it would take him about 30 minutes, and it would help reassure people and avoid bad publicity and probably some order cancellations as well.
I don’t get it....
