I need help!

[Macfrommichigan]

My comment was, of course, tongue in cheek.

As we all know, the more you pay, the more its worth.

Gawd, I'm so old, remember when ten cents would buy a cup of joe.

 

[SliceOfLife]

You can still get free coffee from time to time if you live in the right neighborhood or make the right friends.


That said, there's definitely a difference between bad wine and good wine... but bad wine isn't always cheap and good wine isn't always expensive.

Shaving brushes I suspect are a LOT less complex than wine though.

There is basically one source for all badger hair (with an exception or two that we can ignore). That goes to a handful of cleaning/sorting and to a handful of (pretty much identical) chinese assemblers and a small number of outside houses/manufacturers (and at least one of the new artisans if it's true that Black Eagle is hand tying knots now). Now you lay that complexity together and add handle variety and it's pretty complicated... but the amount of compounds in wine and the fact that they are controlled indirectly through terroir and aging, and directly through process and mixing makes it immeasurably more complex.

My concern with all these new manufacturers that sprung up and are the bees knees now is that I saw this all before eight or so years ago... but at 10% of what these guys are charging. The cheap manufacturers had the EXACT same evolution. They appear by social media posts of the first people to get them... who were almost all given special pricing in exchange for promoting or "reviewing" their brush. A few guys buy them and aren't inclined to argue with the rolling ball of fanboying, which likely flavors their opinion towards the positive (of a decent to good brush... making it the miraculous "unobtainium" that we see people offering over retail for). The difference was @ $10-40 direct from china they couldn't afford to limit the supply, so the frothing at the mouth effect of consumerism didn't take effect to create a secondary market the way some of these new makers have... which drives peoples perception up further. It's really a masterful use of crowd mentality and consumer culture. Like I said before, I'm sure there's some marketing majors among these new brush manufacturers. And while I'm sure most if not all are making good brushes, and there may be some that are actually something special. But from the looks of it, most of these guys just got a hold of someone making the same brushes Frank Shaving et al sell, and figured out how to explain that they wanted denser, mostly two-band knots. Then they got some handles copied off of popular designs from other manufacturers, maybe changed a touch, thought up a cool name, and went to work promoting.

I'm genuinely curious. How many tie their own knots? I've heard BE... any others? The sites I've looked at certainly don't promote it... which I'd expect if they were selling anything but knots direct from the standard Chinese manufacturers. So the rest are selling Chinese made knots. Not that that's a bad thing necessarily, but it does kind of limit what the brush should be worth, as it means it can be replicated... cheaply. From what I recall, Chinese Badger knots cost $2-10. Figure the manufacturers think they're suckers and really stick it to them for the extra density? $35. In a handle that's maybe $10 to make. And people are selling this product as "unobtainium" and asking almost a grand for it? If you don't see a problem with the psychology of that, you're as crazy as that guy.


At least with some Vintage Plisson, you're getting a hair that you probably can't get elsewhere. It's legitimately difficult or impossible to replace what this guy's selling. With a little effort, you could probably replace almost any brush from the new manufacturers for a fraction of what THEY sold it for... much less the going aftermarket prices. It just takes tracking down the company that makes their knots. Not to say I don't think $700 for a vintage Plisson is outrageous. It's nuts. But paying $300 (much less $900) for a Wiborg is far more nuts. It's like getting shocked that a 300 yr old Mahogany dresser is selling at an antique store for $700 and ignoring the new Ikea dresser with the $50 sticker scratched out and a $900 pricetag on it sitting next to it.


And this coming from a guy who isn't much of a fan of Plisson and would probably take most of the new manufacturers brushes over a Plisson. Vintage Plisson HMW doesn't have a ton of value to me... but it does (and should) have value to the people who want it. It's not available elsewhere. Brushes like Wiborg look much better to me... but I can get a thousand brushes just like them elsewhere, and cheaper.

 

[Matt O]

This is a very very rare, and extremely beautiful brush.

If someone makes 500 an hour, that’s an hour and a half of work. If someone makes 250 a day, that’s three work days of living!

I love that quote!

Vr

Matt

 

[Pat Puma]

There's a Wiborg that's been on ebay for a while listed at $900, and this Plisson looks like it is in MUCH better shape. I think my limit is about $250, but so far I don't think I've paid more than $225 for anything shaving related, and that includes a Wolfman.

 

[pdieten]

Well, I've enjoyed $50 wine quite a bit more than $20 wine (but I think my abilities max out around that level), my razor is a Wolfman (although I purchased it back when it was $200 Canadian) and, of course, a $1 cup of coffee in today's crazy market would be indistinguishable from crank case sludge.

Come on. I'm happy to drink McDonald's $1 coffee. It's good.

I'm also happy to use a $40 English made best badger brush that's not as good as a $750 brush. I don't live in a world where $750 is pocket money. If the seller finds his buyer, good for him, but there's no sense to me playing in that league.

 

[Matt O]

Come on. I'm happy to drink McDonald's $1 coffee. It's good.

I'm also happy to use a $40 English made best badger brush that's not as good as a $750 brush. I don't live in a world where $750 is pocket money. If the seller finds his buyer, good for him, but there's no sense to me playing in that league.

 

[Twelvefret]

While I have no need of anything, I would never parade myself about by remarking that I am rich. What egotistical nonsense. “A man is rich in proportion to the number of things which he can afford to let alone.” Henry David Thoreau

 

[pbrmhl]

You can still get free coffee from time to time if you live in the right neighborhood or make the right friends.


That said, there's definitely a difference between bad wine and good wine... but bad wine isn't always cheap and good wine isn't always expensive.

Shaving brushes I suspect are a LOT less complex than wine though.

There is basically one source for all badger hair (with an exception or two that we can ignore). That goes to a handful of cleaning/sorting and to a handful of (pretty much identical) chinese assemblers and a small number of outside houses/manufacturers (and at least one of the new artisans if it's true that Black Eagle is hand tying knots now). Now you lay that complexity together and add handle variety and it's pretty complicated... but the amount of compounds in wine and the fact that they are controlled indirectly through terroir and aging, and directly through process and mixing makes it immeasurably more complex.

My concern with all these new manufacturers that sprung up and are the bees knees now is that I saw this all before eight or so years ago... but at 10% of what these guys are charging. The cheap manufacturers had the EXACT same evolution. They appear by social media posts of the first people to get them... who were almost all given special pricing in exchange for promoting or "reviewing" their brush. A few guys buy them and aren't inclined to argue with the rolling ball of fanboying, which likely flavors their opinion towards the positive (of a decent to good brush... making it the miraculous "unobtainium" that we see people offering over retail for). The difference was @ $10-40 direct from china they couldn't afford to limit the supply, so the frothing at the mouth effect of consumerism didn't take effect to create a secondary market the way some of these new makers have... which drives peoples perception up further. It's really a masterful use of crowd mentality and consumer culture. Like I said before, I'm sure there's some marketing majors among these new brush manufacturers. And while I'm sure most if not all are making good brushes, and there may be some that are actually something special. But from the looks of it, most of these guys just got a hold of someone making the same brushes Frank Shaving et al sell, and figured out how to explain that they wanted denser, mostly two-band knots. Then they got some handles copied off of popular designs from other manufacturers, maybe changed a touch, thought up a cool name, and went to work promoting.

I'm genuinely curious. How many tie their own knots? I've heard BE... any others? The sites I've looked at certainly don't promote it... which I'd expect if they were selling anything but knots direct from the standard Chinese manufacturers. So the rest are selling Chinese made knots. Not that that's a bad thing necessarily, but it does kind of limit what the brush should be worth, as it means it can be replicated... cheaply. From what I recall, Chinese Badger knots cost $2-10. Figure the manufacturers think they're suckers and really stick it to them for the extra density? $35. In a handle that's maybe $10 to make. And people are selling this product as "unobtainium" and asking almost a grand for it? If you don't see a problem with the psychology of that, you're as crazy as that guy.


At least with some Vintage Plisson, you're getting a hair that you probably can't get elsewhere. It's legitimately difficult or impossible to replace what this guy's selling. With a little effort, you could probably replace almost any brush from the new manufacturers for a fraction of what THEY sold it for... much less the going aftermarket prices. It just takes tracking down the company that makes their knots. Not to say I don't think $700 for a vintage Plisson is outrageous. It's nuts. But paying $300 (much less $900) for a Wiborg is far more nuts. It's like getting shocked that a 300 yr old Mahogany dresser is selling at an antique store for $700 and ignoring the new Ikea dresser with the $50 sticker scratched out and a $900 pricetag on it sitting next to it.


And this coming from a guy who isn't much of a fan of Plisson and would probably take most of the new manufacturers brushes over a Plisson. Vintage Plisson HMW doesn't have a ton of value to me... but it does (and should) have value to the people who want it. It's not available elsewhere. Brushes like Wiborg look much better to me... but I can get a thousand brushes just like them elsewhere, and cheaper.

I could be wrong, but I recall reading that Declaration and Morris & Forndran tie their knots. I’m curious about this question, also.

 

[SliceOfLife]

M&f does. Owner used to work for Rooney iirc. Good to know about declaration. Thanks.

 

[mawashi]

While I have no need of anything, I would never parade myself about by remarking that I am rich. What egotistical nonsense. “A man is rich in proportion to the number of things which he can afford to let alone.” Henry David Thoreau

I'll proudly state that I'm not rich, I'm simple man with fairly simple needs. A $20 Yaqi brush is more than I'll ever need. A 2 band badger Yaqi lol.

I love those guys to death.

Happy shaves,

Mawashi

 

[DEATHMgck]

But it's too late... I can't escape:

I saw this ad in another forum: "This is a Plisson size 20 brush from the late 1970s, with the Plexi handle and the very best High Mountain White hair in a 28mm/68mm knot. It has good backbone and flowthrough and pillow-soft, snow-white hair tips. Extremely rare, especially in this wonderful condition, showing minimal signs of use. $750 shipped CONUS."

I know we don't talk prices... but if this habit can lead to paying $750 for a brush I need to get out now!!!

I just .....cant.

I enjoy this hobby to use the items i buy, not go into debt. Really hope if someone buys it its worth it to them