Stropping & the Edge-On-Up Industrial Edge Tester

[FlScott]

I tested a cheap razor last night. I didn't want to chance getting a chip in good razor based on Slice of Life's experiences. I ran the test 6 times and inspected the blade with a 30X jewelry loupe after each test. I did not experience any chips. I was trying to be real steady and I pinched the toe of the blade to add stability while in the fulcrum.

I used the fulcrum and the black media holder along with the disposable clips for the testing. This set-up is quite a bit lower than the aluminum test media holder. I did get two different results using the same razor, so I have to figure that out. I suspect the different results could be the result of the angle.

I'll get more testing down this weekend.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I'm reading this and the other thread and rereading the information sent to me by Edge On Up in response to my inquiry.

As far as I can tell (and maybe I'm missing something) only one gentleman, Slice of Life, has had "chips." Is that correct?

I'm not sure how many people on our two threads have used the instrument? I've not yet used mine at all. I'm anxious to use it and want to add my experiences to the group database. I'm also afraid to use it for fear of damaging an edge I like shaving with and don't want to have to fix.

If I understand Slice of Life's problem as his problem is understood by Edge On Up they're saying
his problem is a weak edge, and not the instrument, the media, or his technique using the instrument.

Of course they could be wrong.

I certainly don't mean to insult Slice of Life's honing or edges, and know zero about his abilities or edges, and also trust that he's reporting everything accurately to the degree any of us can.

All that leaves me confused and uncertain as to how to progress.

That's not to say I'm not planning on jumping in the water. Maybe not the deep in first.

I really don't want to deal with damage to good edges! I also suspect down the road we're going to have this well figured out. Part of the problem is we're trailblazers of a sort here. I tend to think Edge On Up is being truthful when they report what they told me, but I'm not quite sure how to assess my edges for the issues they mention nor how to avoid damage (which might happen only if my edges are actually weak?). But, how could my edges be weak, or those of Slice of Life?

Image how bad that job would be when you're frustrated with this hobby. Sometimes thinking like that helps me. It's just an edge. I have stones.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[SliceOfLife]

I've done maybe 30-40 tests at this point. Without using the fulcrum (Hold at toe and tang and push downward) included media is fine, fishing line is fine, anything softer than steel is fine.

Using the fulcrum... basically everything (Down to thread and dense packing foam) chips a razor with a <15* grind angle.

The one 16* grind angle razor I've tried was alright with the fulcrum.

I posted what I theorize is the problem in the other thread on this topic, but basically... razors aren't meant to saw, the fulcrum forces them to saw. This makes the microscopic teeth of very thin ground razors(which lack the support of a thicker grind angled tool) collapse parallel to the edge and fold over on when they snag on the media.

The easiest fix is abrasive stropping... known for rounding the bevel off... should solve the problem fast, so if you finish on pastes, you're probably good to go.

The extremely heavy stropping should also clean off these teeth in the way that happens with repeated (normal) stropping and use, the very gradual rounding of the edge that is why touch up hones exist. I suspect I simply am not willing to strop as heavy as is necessary.

Just push cut without using the fulcrum (the manual actually suggests this as an option, but I had only read the quick start guide). So far no chips on as far down as an 11 degree razor with this method.


And our edges are weak... relative to their primary market (knives). Razors are weak. Hair is really easy to cut. Where he's wrong is he's assuming the problem is a wire edge. It's not. Unfortunately I only sent him a picture of the largest chip, which covers the entire fov of the scope, so he can't see the undamaged areas of the edge, which are clearly not folded. I think he just assumed I was using a push cut, and that's what causes this sort of damage with a push cut. He hasn't responded since I mentioned that I thought the fulcrum was the issue (to be fair, that was late last night).

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I've done maybe 30-40 tests at this point. Without using the fulcrum (Hold at toe and tang and push downward) included media is fine, fishing line is fine, anything softer than steel is fine.

Using the fulcrum... basically everything (Down to thread and dense packing foam) chips a razor with a <15* grind angle.

The one 16* grind angle razor I've tried was alright with the fulcrum.

I posted what I theorize is the problem in the other thread on this topic, but basically... razors aren't meant to saw, the fulcrum forces them to saw. This makes the microscopic teeth of very thin ground razors(which lack the support of a thicker grind angled tool) collapse parallel to the edge and fold over on when they snag on the media.

The easiest fix is abrasive stropping... known for rounding the bevel off... should solve the problem fast, so if you finish on pastes, you're probably good to go.

The extremely heavy stropping should also clean off these teeth in the way that happens with repeated (normal) stropping and use, the very gradual rounding of the edge that is why touch up hones exist. I suspect I simply am not willing to strop as heavy as is necessary.

Just push cut without using the fulcrum (the manual actually suggests this as an option, but I had only read the quick start guide). So far no chips on as far down as an 11 degree razor with this method.


And our edges are weak... relative to their primary market (knives). Razors are weak. Hair is really easy to cut. Where he's wrong is he's assuming the problem is a wire edge. It's not. Unfortunately I only sent him a picture of the largest chip, which covers the entire fov of the scope, so he can't see the undamaged areas of the edge, which are clearly not folded. I think he just assumed I was using a push cut, and that's what causes this sort of damage with a push cut. He hasn't responded since I mentioned that I thought the fulcrum was the issue (to be fair, that was late last night).

I hope you send all your photos and explanations and guesses (and those of others maybe). The pros are there to help us, right?

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[SliceOfLife]

Yeah I’m trying to keep them updated. I wish I wasn’t so damn busy this week, but I’ll get some time to sort it all out soon.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Ok, so I tested 27 total razors:

8 can't cut the media without damage (these are the first 8 I started testing this device with, naturally... I've thoroughly confirmed this behavior with these 8 razors)
3 take a lot of pressure to cut the media but I'm unsure of their edge quality (haven't touched them in awhile, will rehone and retest these)
5 cut the media fine with a push cut, but struggle or are damaged by using the fulcrum (going to rehone and retest these as well)
11 cut the media fine using the fulcrum.

 

[bluesman 7]

@SliceOfLife are you stropping before the test? One of the videos showed the dramatic effect that slight oxidation had on edge sharpness, a DE blade in the air over night vs one straight out of the jacket.

Thanks for including bevel angles in all of your tests, one of the things that I'm very interested in.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Latest test was straight from the hones to the strops to the test.

Previously (excepting the 7 day set and the Herder that were giving me all this trouble, which were fresh honed and stropped every time as I was planning on using the 7 days to compare hones and stropping techniques, and the Herder was SUPPOSED to be my shaving razor that day, but was grabbed instead to confirm what I was seeing on the 7 days set (chipping from test)) I would just grab the razor (most of what I keep around is honed... there were a couple errors because of that presumption though, as I found out). Oxidation isn't really the culprit though, some razors I had sitting for 2yrs+ passed easily... stropping definitely IMPROVED results... by a lot, but wasnt the difference between a pass and fail. Generally I think the erroneous failures were due to razors I thought I had honed actually turning out to have been eBay specials that came with stones after I stopped buying and restoring razors.

I've updated the results in the other thread.

One razor in middle group was discovered to have the temper blown in the bottom half of blade (so top half was sharp, bottom dull). It got ditched. Added another razor to replace it.

End result was 12 nopass
Only 1 blade that was damaged during a fulcrum cut but not during push
and 15 that handled both cuts once edge was prepared properly.


So basically half of my "user" razors can be used with this tester... but I do tend to accumulate very thin ground razors. Shaving with a 19* angle razor feels like shaving with a butterknife to me. My razors avg just over 14* angle and a "fatty" in my collection is 16-17*.

The Nopass vary from 13* to 16* (A "Manganese Steel" with very soft steel).
Not really exceptional, though the 7 day set is towards the lower end of my collection for angle... @ ~13*.

 

[dundak]

Nice thread but way too far down the rabbit hole for me. It seems instruments like these have you chase numbers and results that may have no correlation to the quality of your shave. It’s cool to follow but it think the time involved could be used elsewhere to improve your shaves and honing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Testing the Herder (Very hard steel ~20* angle) off a Jnat.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean when you say a razor is a "pass."

I'm not being at all critical, just confused. It's a frequent state for me.

I've yet to use my device (will in a few minutes) but I'm interested in several things.

• The angle at which the razor is sharpened (yours, not mine as I don't measure that).
• Whether the edge is damaged (by the instrument or bad technique or whatever).
• What method is used (fulcrum or hand held vertical push).
• Speed on the push (if that's relevant I'm not sure yet).
• Force as measured by the device.
• Which razor is which (the razor's name, description, etc).
• Anything known about the way the razor was honed and stropped, etc.
• Everyone's thoughts on everything involved.

I'm also sure this testing is likely to reveal that some of the eBay razors some of us have purchased (or boot sale razors or antique store razors, etc.) are junk. That's a good thing (except for our pocketbooks).

To begin with I suspect all of us will be fumbling about some as compared with how we use the instrument as we become familiar with it. We're also developing standard communication methods so we are talking the same language, but this is B&B and one never knows. I've yet to know what anyone other than me is talking about when they say a DE razor is aggressive, and find I have to define the term every time I use it to be sure there's a shot I'm understood (an aggressive razor is prone to biting me as opposed to an efficient razor prone to cutting whiskers well).

In other words I'm probably way behind you and displaying my ignorance, but I don't quite understand what you've posted.

I'm fixing to get started (dive into the shallow end). My objectives today are to become a bit familiar with the device and its use and to not ruin any edges. Honing out chips is not fun for anyone particularly on a razor already shave ready. I've honed at least one razor to my satisfaction and banged into its edge a chip touching the sink on its first shave; you know how much I enjoyed that.

Anyway...I'm grabbing some razor blades and a couple or so straight razors.

I grabbed your link on the other thread. I don't know where I'll post my results or if I will until I know a little something.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[mrlandpirate]

this thread is very interesting but a bit hard to follow with you guys jumping back and forth to the old thread . now that you are starting to test could you just use this thread for continuity please
thank you and keep up the great work

 

[SliceOfLife]

A lot to respond to. It’s going to have to wait till I get home. I don’t want to try to address all your questions from my phone. But I’ll try to get it done before I leave for my in-laws this afternoon

 

[SliceOfLife]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean when you say a razor is a "pass."

I mean it is able to be tested on this thing without damage to the razor.

I've yet to use my device (will in a few minutes) but I'm interested in several things.

• The angle at which the razor is sharpened (yours, not mine as I don't measure that).
• Whether the edge is damaged (by the instrument or bad technique or whatever).
• What method is used (fulcrum or hand held vertical push).
• Speed on the push (if that's relevant I'm not sure yet).
• Force as measured by the device.
• Which razor is which (the razor's name, description, etc).
• Anything known about the way the razor was honed and stropped, etc.
• Everyone's thoughts on everything involved.

I don't freehand razors, so the angles I mention are the grind angle... the angle of the bevel if razor is honed flat on the stones. This is 1/2 of the width of the spine measured at a point of honewear on the spine divided by the distance from that point of honewear to the edge, inverse sine of that and multiply by 2.

Pass/Fail is what I'm using to signify if the edge is damaged by the media/tester

Not decided yet if I'm going to use the fulcrum or a push for future testing... planning to avoid using razors that can't survive the fulcrum use though, just for extra insurance against chipping anything moving forward.

Speed so far has been as slowly as I'm able to maintain a smooth motion, and that seems like what I'll probably continue.

Force will be given in grams

Yep, I'll try and give the razors name/identity when referencing specific results

Unless I specifically mention otherwise, every razor will be stropped as if I were going to shave with it (roughly 16-30 linen followed by 20-50 leather, depending on the razor and strop)

I'm also sure this testing is likely to reveal that some of the eBay razors some of us have purchased (or boot sale razors or antique store razors, etc.) are junk. That's a good thing (except for our pocketbooks).

Totally junked ebay vintage razors aren't that common. I've bought several hundred, maybe over a thousand eBay razors... including several lots. Discounting ones that were obviously destroyed from the pictures (big chips, obvious cracks, extreme rust and horrible honewear) I've seen maybe ten that had hidden cracks that made the blade useless, and only a half dozen or so where the temper was actually destroyed. I don't buy shiny/restored razors often though, and that's where I suspect 99% of razors lose their temper... someone buffing them shiny and wearing them too thin or overheating them. If you're buying a razor that shines like it's NOS but seems unlikely that it actually is... and it's not from a restorer who knows what he's doing, you're probably going to encounter a lot more junk razors than I do.

It's important to keep in mind, that because this thing chips razors does NOT mean the razor is junk. This device is harder on a razor than any shaver ever should be , I've found a number of my razors that I've used for YEARS, that shave GREAT will chip on this thing, especially if I put an extremely fine edge on them. Yes this thing can sort out your sturdier razors, but that's not necessarily important to a shave. I now know that my black-scaled Spike is much harder steel than my 3-pin off-white spike with the loose scales. Doesn't mean the black one will shave better... just that it's better at cutting some very pricey and sturdy fishing line... and consequently more useful for testing with this machine.

Your summary...

Yes, that's the really tricky thing. A lot of terms and meanings are personally developed and often different for each of us... and so overlapping our results with this device won't be easy, but I'm sure there will be some opportunities to do so and save each other some work in the long run. Good luck with it.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

this thread is very interesting but a bit hard to follow with you guys jumping back and forth to the old thread . now that you are starting to test could you just use this thread for continuity please
thank you and keep up the great work
View attachment 979823

Yes. I think that a good idea. I will post my Edge On Up stuff here unless it directly pertains to the heavy stropping theme of the other thread.



I've used my Edge On Up instrument for the first time today. There was no damage done to my edges (as checked with my favorite little microscope). That's very good!

Every blade was held in both hands. I did not use the fulcrum. I did not use the test clips, but only the aluminum media holder (which was easy to get the hang of).

Data on Purchased Blades

To begin with I tested a new in the wrapper (but not straight from a plastic wrapped tuck) Gillette 7 O'Clock. Result 46. About what I expected.

Next, the same sort of Polsilver SI. Result 68. That's a surprise to me, but it was only one test, right.

Finally, my third DE, the same sort of Feather. Results of two tests 41 and 39. Surprise.

I turned to a Proline in my Feather SS barber razor. This blade has been shaved with at least a few times and seemed quite sharp when I last used it months ago. Result 68. Surprise.

Straight Razor Data

The first SR tested was a GD 1966 which was last honed on my Double Convex Ark. I didn't think it was honed well and expected little. Result 143. I then stropped the blade; result 198. I doubt I tested the same part of the blade both times. Not a surprise.

Next up, my Kukri. This is the razor I've shaved with for over a month, off a coticule and then off the Zulu Grey for finishing. Refreshed on the Zulu Grey several shaves back. Stropped yesterday after shaving; results along the edge 60/71/47/72. The blade was stropped on horsehide; results 81/65. I have no idea that I tested the same places before and after the horsehide.

Obviously this was surprising to me...

However, it's an edge that feels good to me, and is in the league with my favorite DE blade the Polsilver SI. In sharpness according to this testing, and in comfort according to me.

My Double Duck Shorty followed. This edge is off the coticule using my patented Oil Honing Method. Recently shaved with it seemed to me to be quite sharp. Results 145/90/114. After horsehide; results 88/64/71. Again, not the same places tested before and after horsehide.

Again, surprising to me...

A Devo followed. It was honed by a member on Shapton 30K and has seemed very sharp when I've used it. Result 61/292/81. After horsehide; results 52/100/75.

That's a damn good question.

I've been saying my straight razor shaves are very comfortable and certainly acceptably close and smooth but not as close and smooth and long lasting as my safety razor shaves. Maybe this testing explains why?

Just saying...



The only conclusions I can draw from the data are these.

• I'm not very good yet at honing, but I'm not terrible either.
• I don't know what a truly sharp straight razor is.

I already knew I wasn't a seasoned honer and had a lot more to learn, so all I have to do is continue climbing the learning curve of honing.

Besides that, and perhaps of more importance, is the fact that my straight razor shaves are already pretty satisfactory. So, in a way, this data doesn't matter except as an objective measure of what remains to be learned and done.

I'm going to have to ponder exactly how to proceed from here. Perhaps I'll pick another razor to work with in the same way I've been working with my Kukri. Perhaps I'll stick with the Kukri.

I know I can use the Edge On Up instrument to inform my progress from here. That's very good!

I can think of other edges I probably should have checked today - my probably not sharp at all Genco off the Double Convex Ark, some of my razors off the flat Norton Translucent, maybe anther edge off the coticule - but I've done what I set out to do today.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I mean it is able to be tested on this thing without damage to the razor.

I don't freehand razors, so the angles I mention are the grind angle... the angle of the bevel if razor is honed flat on the stones. This is 1/2 of the width of the spine measured at a point of honewear on the spine divided by the distance from that point of honewear to the edge, inverse sine of that and multiply by 2.

Pass/Fail is what I'm using to signify if the edge is damaged by the media/tester

Not decided yet if I'm going to use the fulcrum or a push for future testing... planning to avoid using razors that can't survive the fulcrum use though, just for extra insurance against chipping anything moving forward.

Speed so far has been as slowly as I'm able to maintain a smooth motion, and that seems like what I'll probably continue.

Force will be given in grams

Yep, I'll try and give the razors name/identity when referencing specific results

Unless I specifically mention otherwise, every razor will be stropped as if I were going to shave with it (roughly 16-30 linen followed by 20-50 leather, depending on the razor and strop)



Totally junked ebay vintage razors aren't that common. I've bought several hundred, maybe over a thousand eBay razors... including several lots. Discounting ones that were obviously destroyed from the pictures (big chips, obvious cracks, extreme rust and horrible honewear) I've seen maybe ten that had hidden cracks that made the blade useless, and only a half dozen or so where the temper was actually destroyed. I don't buy shiny/restored razors often though, and that's where I suspect 99% of razors lose their temper... someone buffing them shiny and wearing them too thin or overheating them. If you're buying a razor that shines like it's NOS but seems unlikely that it actually is... and it's not from a restorer who knows what he's doing, you're probably going to encounter a lot more junk razors than I do.

It's important to keep in mind, that because this thing chips razors does NOT mean the razor is junk. This device is harder on a razor than any shaver ever should be , I've found a number of my razors that I've used for YEARS, that shave GREAT will chip on this thing, especially if I put an extremely fine edge on them. Yes this thing can sort out your sturdier razors, but that's not necessarily important to a shave. I now know that my black-scaled Spike is much harder steel than my 3-pin off-white spike with the loose scales. Doesn't mean the black one will shave better... just that it's better at cutting some very pricey and sturdy fishing line... and consequently more useful for testing with this machine.

Yes, that's the really tricky thing. A lot of terms and meanings are personally developed and often different for each of us... and so overlapping our results with this device won't be easy, but I'm sure there will be some opportunities to do so and save each other some work in the long run. Good luck with it.

I apologize for not being clear. I was not asking you to answer any question other than what pass meant.

However, your great reply has answered a number of questions I didn't even know I had and clarified matters I'd not realized needed clarifying. Thanks so much for it.

Yes, we'll figure this out.

That's a whole lot of eBay razors you've purchased. I thought I was bad and I'm only in the low teens. Holy smokes!

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[SliceOfLife]

Nice data. When you list multiple results together is that moving from toe to heel or heel to toe? Either way it looks like the middle of your dovo is lagging. Is your strop 3” wide? If you have a 2” strop, using it with a slightly crossing pattern hits the middle of a razor better for me than straight up and down a 3”.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Nice data. When you list multiple results together is that moving from toe to heel or heel to toe?

I'd like to say I know, but I wasn't that systematic today. That's how it should be done, either toe to heel or vice versa, and specified.

Either way it looks like the middle of your razors are lagging.

Maybe, but I'm not sure.

Is your strop 3” wide? If you have a 2” strop, using it with a slightly crossing pattern hits the middle of a razor better for me than straight up and down a 3”.

I have two non-pasted strops, but the hanging horsehide strop (the one I've been using recently, exclusively) is quite wide, almost 3.5 inches.



It's a great strop. Not a hint of anything amiss and certainly no cupping.

I will improve with the device now that my feet are wet.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[SliceOfLife]

five of the fulcrum pass (on Apache) razors have failed on finer edges. Down to 9-10 of 27 that pass on fulcrum with 5-6 confirmed on the following stones and measures:

~20* Herder off Karasu Jnat = 39g
~13.25* Spike off extra fine Coticule = 23g
~15* Clauss off Thuringian = 31g
~14.5* Spike off PDSO = 27g
~16* Bedenia off Vintage Kamisori Jnat = 27g


Upon scoping these razors, some are getting chipped even when it doesn't make it fail the test. The Bedenia passed 27, then 33, then 17 then over 100... scoped it, and it's got 3 microchips from the tests.


So far, everything from the 15 of the previous pass group has been able to pass a push cut, and push cut scores tend to be noticeably lower (I'm putting up fulcrum numbers).

 

[SliceOfLife]

~19* Hodgeson Razor off 13000 grit JIS synthetic (0.74micron) =38g
~19* Catt Cut Co off Hard Arkansas = 36g

Fulcrum is falling out of favor on these finer finishes again. Will definitely be doing push cut from now on.
Down to FOUR razors that pass @ >18* angles, THREE which pass @ <18* angles and ONE <18* which cut easily but HAD MICROCHIPPING upon inspection after the test on Thuringian+ finishes. The rest all have edge fail immediately on touching the media using the fulcrum with a Thuri+ finish.


Total... seven razors that survive this tester using the fulcrum... 4 of which are so heavy ground, I consider them mediocre shavers at best... THREE actual survivors I'd shave with regularly... and I didn't scope them yet... I expect there's MOST LIKELY microchips I'm unaware of on them.


Ok, I scoped the three sub 18* razors, and two of them have microchips.

Only ONE of the sub 18* razors survived this test using the fulcrum undamaged.
FOUR passed with very good scores and didn't immediately appear damaged (required a 400x scope or multiple tests @ same location to discover)
ELEVEN passed on a less refined (but still shaving ready) edge


All my razors 17.5* up seem fine... but that's a small sample size (4)

This SEVERELY limits the usefulness as a test @ high levels of refinement for razors using the fulcrum. Hopefully testing without the fulcrum confirms that it allows more refinement with less edge damage. Also planning to switch back to Fishing Line vs this media once I do some more comparison testing.



Ok, testing one razor with fulcrum + media = 36, 33, 28
Without fulcrum = 17, 8, 12
Fishing line without fulcrum = 16, 23, 19

 

[SliceOfLife]

Now I've got to grind the chips out of like 20 razors and then I can get back to testing.


I’m thinking that my best option will be to take three or four of my junker razors and saw them off until they’re all roughly the same angle at around 17 1/2 to 18°. That should hold up to the testing without worries of chipping, and most of the comparisons I’d want to do should translate roughly to finer ground razors Without having to risk damage and repeated repairs to the razors that I actually shave with.