Since the first Mastro Livi razor I purchased, I have been very interested in the way Mastro Livi hones razors. He sets the bevel using a 3k Japanese wetstone, then lapping back and forth using a Belgium coticule under running water, no slurry. Then lapping on a Ark translucent to polish the edge. Like many razor manufacturers, he discourages slurry because he feel the particles degrade the edge. The final steps are on his loom strop first the chrox on fine linen then the amazing leather. I tried this recently on an old Genco and got amazing results. Not as good as Mastro Livi, but he has 55 years experience on me. I also going to try this method using a JNat instead of the coticle. Anyone else tried this and what are your results.
HONING THE MASTRO LIVI WAY
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This is fascinating. I have come across a couple of guys that run a similar synth - - >coti - - >ark progression
I have come across synth- - > coti-->yellow Lake as well.
Did you find that you kept some mellowness from the coticule despite it not being the final stone?
I have come across synth- - > coti-->yellow Lake as well.
Did you find that you kept some mellowness from the coticule despite it not being the final stone?
The way he hones has to produce quite a convex edge. He seems to be using quite a bit of pressure at each stage with very thinly ground blades before moving onto a heavily croxed strop. Lately in every video he does he seems to have just used the 3000 stone and the strop.
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- #4
I asked Mastro Livi the question about pressure and his reply was it only looks like a lot of pressure. Actually it is blade weight only. He uses the full progression not the 3000 and strop. His older videos were much better at showing this. As for the mellowness, I find the edge very much like the coticule but a maybe a touch sharper. Keep in mind the use of the loom strop does bring up the edge a little bit above just the coticule but I find the shave more comfortable.
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
I've been thinking about this very topic. This thread is timely. Thanks.
Keeping the coticule's mellowness and also getting the edge just a bit sharper would be a great and wonderful thing.
I have the basic tools, too (not the super fancy strop).
Happy shaves,
Jim
Keeping the coticule's mellowness and also getting the edge just a bit sharper would be a great and wonderful thing.
I have the basic tools, too (not the super fancy strop).
Happy shaves,
Jim
Thanks for sharing. I am always interested in methods that are clear and simple to understand.
It’s funny you brought this up. I have used this exact method quite a lot.
Basically I use the 3k Naniwa to set the edge, then the coticule with water then crox on my Livi loom plus leather .
It does work and the shave is very good and so simple. I find Livi crox compared to other brands actually sharpens the edge much quicker and the polish is very good .
Has for a pure coticule edge there is a difference. The coticule edge is more mellow by far . The Livi method is sharp smooth and close shave but not as mellow as a coticule .
I will be trying Livi method again as I do think with some practise it can get better
Basically I use the 3k Naniwa to set the edge, then the coticule with water then crox on my Livi loom plus leather .
It does work and the shave is very good and so simple. I find Livi crox compared to other brands actually sharpens the edge much quicker and the polish is very good .
Has for a pure coticule edge there is a difference. The coticule edge is more mellow by far . The Livi method is sharp smooth and close shave but not as mellow as a coticule .
I will be trying Livi method again as I do think with some practise it can get better
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I've honed 5 razors, one in particular really has given me problems. No more. I hone on the coticule until I feel resistance, then see if the blade is cutting arm hair. If yes, I move on to my Zulu Grey and do 50-100 back and forth laps. I notice off the coticule the edge feels rounded instead of sticking like on JNats or water stones. I then go to my leather paddle strop with Crox paste (Mastro Livi's) and do 10 one way laps each side. This brings up a sharper to the feel edge. Finish with 60 laps on the leather side of my Livi paddle strop. Shave observation, cuts hair very easy, no irritation. One thing is very obvious, it cuts much closer. I usually have to shave every day. With this I can go 2 days.
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
Where does one purchase the Livi items you've mentioned?
I have a Zulu Grey but haven't used it yet. They're not much in favor around here right now, so I'm glad to see some Zulu Love.
Happy shaves,
Jim
Wow, you’ve accumulated some nice stones Jim.
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- #11
mastrolivirazors.com. Buying the stones is the easy part, learning the right way to use them not so easy. A lot of trial and errors, watching videos and reading the different forums. I really like to see the men who actually make the razors because they really understand the steel, forging and grinding process hone the razors. Some are amazing, others you need to work on the edge when you get the razors.
The thing I noticed is for sure very close clean shave and all though not as mellow as dilucot edge it’s closer shave and no irritation. I no Mastro Livi has said many times we don’t need so many hones and I also no he goes from 3k straight to crox loom strop skipping coticule that’s not to say he doesn’t use coticule.
As for pressure it does look like he slaps the razor down but he is using weight of blade
As for pressure it does look like he slaps the razor down but he is using weight of blade
Check out his Livi school videos it covers everything you need to no
Honestly, that's just a typical old school honing regimen. Old timers in the USA used to use the 4k Norton for bevel setting day in and day out. In Europe, I think jumping from mid-range stones to pastes was a very common move also. Setting bevels on full hollows with a 3k-5k stone was normal. Using 1k stones came into fashion much later on and traditionalists squawked about them being 'too coarse'. Crox was a omnipresent staple; I had a shaving kit from the late 1800s that had 1 carborundum hone, a stick of crox, and a tub of FeOx with two linen strops for the pastes. Coticules were used without slurry for a very long time. Finishing on Arks was also a very old-school method. Way I see it, that progression isn't something I'd attribute to any one single person.
In my own experience, when used correctly on a razor quality stone; slurry doesn't damage edges, it refines them futher than the stone by itself is able to. But if you're going to use Crox afterwards, it almost doesn't matter what you do before the Crox. I actually prefer a 5k to Crox edge to almost any other possible combination that includes synths and Crox.
Crox is to edges sorta like what MSG is to food. Some like it, some don't. As they say, horses for courses.
In my own experience, when used correctly on a razor quality stone; slurry doesn't damage edges, it refines them futher than the stone by itself is able to. But if you're going to use Crox afterwards, it almost doesn't matter what you do before the Crox. I actually prefer a 5k to Crox edge to almost any other possible combination that includes synths and Crox.
Crox is to edges sorta like what MSG is to food. Some like it, some don't. As they say, horses for courses.
I met a real old barber in Australia and he had a little old mini museum in his shop there was a coticule which he called a soap stone and I am sure he had a double sided smal Norton with a black side and red . He told me he set the edge on the Norton and finished on the soap stone.
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
It's very hard for anyone even relatively new to honing and sharpening to evaluate what's being said and taught which makes your perspective and comment so very helpful. Thank you for it.
I'm noticing that every time I get an edge which is my sharpest edge yet it elevates and resets my standards for all other edges. I've been at the point for a while where all my edges are shave ready (more shave ready than most "shave ready" razors I've purchased), but only a couple that I've honed so far have been so sharp that I truly wouldn't want them to be sharper.
Of course, I want both sharp and mellow like everybody else. One of my two best edges is off the coticule (with oil). The other, off the Norton Translucent Ark + pasted strops.
Happy shaves,
Jim
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- #17
I really like the Mastro Livi way because it's easy and simple to get a very good edge. It's like using Naniwa stones, with a little practice you can get good edges. I just picked up a Black translucent convex Ark and I am getting extremely good edges. On most blades, I will 25-35 laps using mineral oil on the Ark and then just stropping. I am finding there is no need for the Crox. This new Ark really polishes the edge to a high degree and fast. Much faster then my Surgical Black Ark and Zulu Grey. Keep looking and you will find the acorn!
ACut, very glad to hear your good news about Jarrod's convex Ark. Waiting for mine to arrive.
Do you also have a soft bevel setter, or just the black finisher? I am very interested in the idea that the increased speed means you can go from bevel setting, all the way using just the finisher.
And are you using 100% mineral oil?
Do you also have a soft bevel setter, or just the black finisher? I am very interested in the idea that the increased speed means you can go from bevel setting, all the way using just the finisher.
And are you using 100% mineral oil?
As Gamma pointed out, a lot of techniques work if you have the skill to understand what is happening. The "correct" way that people hone came about as a means of helping people get a razor from dull to sharp with the least chance for their inexperience to cause them to make a mistake. There are also a lot of silly patterns that emerged to that end and often times actually did nothing or even increased the potential for mistakes (pyramid honing is one thing I'd cite as an example of this). The problem is this brought up a whole class of razor honers who think that what they were taught works because it is the ONLY way to get results. They don't understand what is actually happening and just learned a method, not a science or a skill. I posted a video years ago of a razor getting honed to shaving from a 1200grit bevel hone on a Surgical Black Arkansas with a HHT at the end... and got comments saying I was tricking people somehow because that was impossible. 
I really think investigating this technique and that technique isn't the way to go about it. Learning what you're doing and why is what is important, then methods disappear and it becomes a process that you can go about in a thousand different ways and always get good results because you'll understand not just what to do, but what you want to accomplish at any given stage of edge development and you'll have the knowledge of dozens, hundreds, thousands of ways to accomplish it. That is what knowing how to hone is.
I really think investigating this technique and that technique isn't the way to go about it. Learning what you're doing and why is what is important, then methods disappear and it becomes a process that you can go about in a thousand different ways and always get good results because you'll understand not just what to do, but what you want to accomplish at any given stage of edge development and you'll have the knowledge of dozens, hundreds, thousands of ways to accomplish it. That is what knowing how to hone is.
Yep, I've gotten a few coti's from barbers labeled as "soap stones" and seen a reference or two to them as such in old books too. I guess because they pull up a white "lather" when slurried the way soap stone does?
