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To tape or not to tape, that is the question.

This poor horse sure takes beating after beating. But once more into the fray.

The spine has a function. The spine is not decoration. The function is to determine the bevel angle. It is designed so that it wears more or less proportionally to the edge. A razor should last a couple hundred years. Even so, usually JUST HONING it will leave the bevel angle pretty much in the zone.

When you do heavy metal removal is when NOT taping the spine is MOST important. You are putting about ten years worth of wear on the edge all at once. "Protecting" the spine from "hone wear" is not a good idea here. Spine and edge are meant to wear together, in step.

A razor with a particularly acute bevel angle often benefits from taped honing, both short term (compound bevel) and long term (geometry correction). These are few and far between.

A razor with an extremely wide bevel surface can be tricky to hone because it takes so many good laps to remove any steel, and only one bad one to screw up the edge. And so a compound bevel achieved by adding a half dozen laps on the finisher with tape can often make the edge come to life like never before. This is mostly seen with wedges or near wedges, or half hollow or less hollow razors with generations of wear, that have seen the edge wear away until the bevel is up into the belly of the blade. Here a compound bevel can be helpful. It is best to keep the final microbevel very very small. A half dozen of the lightest laps usually will gitter done.

And speaking of wedges, yes most wedges are very thin at the spine and originally were honed with the spine elevated by about a fingernail thickness. A layer of 3M Super 88 to set a base bevel (it will probably be rather wide, possibly most of the width of the razor!!!) then an additional layer of 33 on top of that to run the progression, and finally another layer of 33 for 3 or 4 laps to form a microbevel is the way I do a full wedge, when I am stuck with doing one, which I dislike but sometimes have occasion to do. The edge comes out quite nice. Unfortunately, daily maintenance on diamond pasted balsa is out, with a tape honed razor, especially with so much tape. You don't want the tape gumming up the balsa. Here you might possibly paste a hanging strop but I abhor this practice myself and never do it. No reason you can't except that Slash says that sucks.

Some honers are switching to Kapton tape from vinyl, with good results.

MOST razors should NOT be honed with tape. If you don't know, don't use it. If the bevel is over 15deg, it is probably okay and can be honed without tape. Don't assume it is too acute. FIND OUT. KNOW it is, before just assuming.

Razors... are they tools, or jewelry? A work of art should probably not be honed at all. Build a nice case for it and put it on display if it is too pretty for the spine to touch a hone. Otherwise, it is a tool, and it is natural for tools to look as though they have been used. Don't fear the hone.

Okay so abusing the razor with taped honing will have small effect for the years you anticipate having and using it. What about the next 200 years of potential use? Learn to hone correctly, and teach your sons and grandsons to do it correctly, and pass those heirlooms on, because when you go to that great barbershop in the sky, they will indeed be heirlooms. Worthy of USE. If displayed proudly, they should look as though grampa just used them and has used them all his life. Just my dos centavos.


Thank you for re-iterating, it would seem quite a few times, your method. It completely makes sense when you say it and I will try to follow the guidelines as much as possible.
 
What makes them the best?
JR is unique in being able to restore the vintage razors to like new condition. No one is close. Johnloc scrubs too much, but he provides a good vintage in a $20-50 for most. His wider blades are more.

JR uses a wide progression of Shapton stones and his honer uses Japanese Natural Stones. His razors will be shave ready. JohnLoc's razors will also be ready to use. Both use tape.

I've looked at thousands of auctions and not one comes close to their quality in vintage offerings.

JR offers an unconditional guarantee. I am sure JohnLoc would as well.
 
Tape is a tool, use it if you need it. As Slash said, it's necessary for the spine to wear at the correct rate to maintain the sharpening angle, and using tape will change the angle, faster if the razor is very thin behind the edge than if it's rather thick. Well used razors may need tape to get an edge or to reduce an overly wide bevel, but that's due to wear, not the fact that tape is "better" than no tape.

If you want to "save" the spine, that's easy, don't hone the razor. Otherwise, it needs to wear to keep up with the edge, not matter what razor you have OTHER than very thick wedges or very thin ones not intended to be honed with the spine in contact with the hone.

I have a sneaking suspicion that "restored" razors are very often far more finished that they were when shipped from the factory.
 

kelbro

Alfred Spatchcock
It would appear I have opened a huge can of worms and thank you everyone for their input.

My 2 favourite customs will probably have 1 layer but everything else nothing.

Just to add to the mix I have one more question re. taping.

I have a custom Damascus that looks very nice but was an average build. The maker used 4 layers to set the bevel???

When looking at the edge at x60 it seems very brittle, lots of micro nicks and unevenness. I think this may be usual for Damascus due to the layering of the steel.

So, my question is what is a good angle for Damascus blades to give a good shave but to hold a decent edge?

Who made the Damascus. Some of the 'damascus' that I've seen were not the greatest quality steel.
 

steveclarkus

Goose Poop Connoisseur
Thanks for the info, as a novice, I hadn't done any chip removals. Also, my experience with blade width reduction is from vintage razors. I had no practical experience on length of time it took, but realized it is more conceptual thing for me, not a practical reality. I would have had to started young for it to be part of my reality. I'm pushing double nickels, so little chance of me getting a razor to such a state.

Some people would have had a 11/16(or smaller) when they manage to set the bevel :)
Double nickels? Clay, you are but a child.
:a13:
 

steveclarkus

Goose Poop Connoisseur
I do hope to live a long life, but I think I'd need a few more years to reduce a SR much. Or OCD at least in respect to honing. :)
I don’t believe you have to worry about honing one away. At my age, my worry is whether I’ll last long enough to finish honing one.
:wheelchair:
 
"Damascus" these days isn't carbon steel with differential carbide deposition like the "real" stuff from ages past, it's layered steel with different composition in the layers to provide optical contrast. I got my head snatched off on a knife forum for suggesting that the "micro-serration" that results from different response to sharpening and wear could be found on a certain brand of inexpensive mass market knives if that's what you want, no need to spend big money on a knife that cannot be sharpened to a stable, clean apex.

I would not expect a "Damascus" razor to get or hold a really good edge, the two steels, whatever they are in your particular case, will sharpen differently and wear differently along with the fact they will also heat treat differently.... A serrated edge is probably inevitable and I cannot imagine will ever give you a good shave.

Stick with solid steel for razors, at least the whole edge will be the same material. Best if drop forged, too, but that pretty much eliminates custom razors.

And I am well aware I may not live long enough to get a razor honed up properly -- I've had a couple close calls in the last decade (one serious auto accident and a bout of viral congestive heart failure). You never know when your number will be up!
 
One thing I think that wasnt mentioned is most new guys not all IME have a tendency to lean on the spine wearing it more than the edge. And most experienced guys not all have a tendency to torque slightly towards the edge. So the tape thing may not be so bad! LOL. FYI I dont use tape on any of my personal razors. But thats my choice. IT DOESNT REALLY MATTER unless your honing every day. One degree or 2 over 50 years of honing is not going to do jack IMO. And that is probably all its going to be after a lifetime.
 
I agree -- bevel setting is probably a one time event for personal use, after that it's just maintaining the edge unless it get damaged.

I'm not a fan of the idea of "killing" the edge on glass and re-grinding a bevel every time you want to touch up a razor. Unless the apex has been damaged by contact with something hard, you should not need to re-establish it, just remove a tiny bit of metal and polish it back up. Bang the razor on the sink or tap, yeah, you will need to restore the apex, but going back to a coarse hone every week is just wasting metal.

A barber shaving a dozen people a day probably needs to hone more often, and the old barber hones do indeed take off quite a bit of metal even used with lather. They aren't all that fine after all, and I suspect the edge isn't the greatest off of them either. A barber can indeed hone a razor to death, but I don't expect one to wear out in personal use.
 
Now we can be sticklers and measure the different torque towards the edge as opposed to leaning on the spine and the resulting angle difference! It will at some point be different. But its a moot point IMO and doesnt really matter. A heel leading stroke at an extreme angle also profile the edge differently. If you dont believe me try it. You will find that after honing the razor to finish this way that doing straight laps you will get a tiny micro bevel. All the more useless tidbits of irrelevant information!
 
If you will be honing a razor so much that you’ll get significant spine wear I suggest you invest in a grinder.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
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I'm in the process of trying to establish a bevel and hone this razor. It is a near wedge (and not a true wedge). It has a very small smile. The spine is certainly not thin. I do not understand how to determine the angle and haven't tried to do so.

I began by putting two layers of tape on the razor following the advice of Keith @Gamma. I'm honing with a Chosera 1K and flattened it again right before using it even though it was already "flat."

I'm using the Burr Method of Bevel Setting, which is how I've begun with every one of my sharp razors (not that I've done all that many, but I've done enough to appreciate the BMoBS and to know I can do it right).

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I'm getting nowhere.

I've been able to get a burr on both sides. However...

One side has required many more strokes, perhaps 700 or so (I lost count but that's close).

The other side has required about 450 strokes and I've raised a burr twice as I've flipped sides after 200 strokes.

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I'm using the the Swooping X-Stroke For smiling edges.

As I said, I am getting a burr (although not like I usually do) but the razor is not sharp. It doesn't seem sharp at all. The thumbnail test shows it to be dull.

The razor wasn't sharp to begin with, but it was sharper than it is now.

I don't know what to do. That is I don't know what I should do. I know what I'm going to do.

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I'm going to remove the tape and start over.

This has not been fun, but I hope it ends up being a learning experience.

I hope, too, I end up with a good bevel and a sharp near wedge razor.

Happy shaves,

Jim

P.S. I have set the bevel on a couple of Gold Dollars with thick spines.
 
You most likely have remnants of a bur or wire edge. Removing the tape will not get you closer. You need to remove the bur. If you have any pasted strop this will hasten it's removal. As well as moving up the progression.
 
As @buca3152 said, you most likely are dealing with the remains of a foil edge from creating your “burr”. I’m not a fan at all of the method, but to each his own.
I have had to deal with this myself and all I did was drag the edge very lightly across the edge of the stone and then with very light laps finish the bevel set off. It is aggressive but it will clean the crap off your edge and you will be surprised just how few laps are actually required to bring the edge back.
 
You can also lay the razor on the stone and gently pull it sideways half an inch or so on each side a few times. This will usually separate the burr from the edge and allow you to very gently hone a proper bevel.

At this point you should be using very light pressure, if you push too much you will abrade the edge behind the apex and keep rolling up a burr. If that burr tears off rather than be abraded off, you damage the apex and are back to dull. Happens all the time sharpening, that's why I recommend the smallest burr detectable and only when necessary, it's far better to not have one than to have to remove one.

I don't know what steel is used for that razor, nor how hard it is, but some steels can be quite hard to de-burr on a 1k stone.

If you started with tape, you will either have to reset the bevel without it or do the whole progression with it, otherwise you are just going to be polishing behind the edge and never reaching it.
 
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