...Amused by the conflation of "efficiency" and price

[Esox]

I believe with the miraculous ability to predict how a razor would work without ever using it would be very helpful to P&G As I stated earlier I believe your opinion should be stated as should mine and anyone else who would like but they are opinions not fact and to make a statement as if it is fact is abysmal. The only fact is that is how it is for my shave on my face.

Thats why I always try to say "for me" or "in my experience" or words to that effect. I dont tend to make across the board comparisons, but like everyone else, I'm human and humans are fallible.

If you're up to it however, you might Google "Chris Kirchen AMA", the designer and maker of the Karve razor. He and I think alike when it comes to razor design and the elimination of blade flex and "cyclic loading" as a byproduct stemming from a lack of baseplate support.

I just found this and assume its what you were referring too;

"The geometry came from a bunch of research to familiarize myself with how razors are configured and then creating analogies between how a blade is configured and real world applications. The one I'm most proud of (because I saw an immediate improvement), was to support the blade as much as possible as a way of eliminating chatter). All razors support the blade on the top side with the top cap, but chatter comes from cyclical loading...force, no force, force, no force, etc. The unloading comes from loading the blade during cutting, but then something gives (such as the whisker that is being cut) and the blade unloads for a split second. The top cap can only help with the loading, so the baseplate has to work together with it."

He and I are on the same page.

If I worked for Gillette they'd go broke because there would only be one razor. It was made over 100 years ago and it is still, in my less than humble opinion , the best razor Gillette ever made. Yes, I've used one, or three!

Blade gap in the WR1 head makes a world of difference. He makes a wide range of them. I really doubt the SC performs as well as all of them.

At one time he offered the clients choice of blade gap, blade angle and blade exposure. If one knew exactly what they wanted, he'd make it for them. He still might, I have no idea.

Blade gap makes a razor more effective, no question. Given similar blade gaps though I would expect them to shave much the same. Wolfman and Timeless are the most rigid modern high end razor designs. A Timeless was on my list at one point, but then I discovered I dont get along with blade gap and the less the blade gap, the more comfortable my shave. Thats the main reason why I prefer my Grande over my SC. If I got along with blade gap I likely would have bought a Timeless, but it still wouldnt outperform my MMOC. At the same time I dont personally see the point in spending $200+CAD on an ATT SE1 just because its stainless and, arguably, nicer looking.

I own $500 Dunhill cigarette lighters and I wear a Tag watch. I appreciate nice things, but in a razor I just cant make the leap.

 

[Shavemd]

Great watch @Esox it will last several lifetimes, and I saw Chris's thoughts on the design of a razor. I liked what he had to say and have tried the D,E and F plate. I loved the look and the value of the razor, but for me, in the end I found other razors gave me a smoother, more efficient shave

 

[Esox]

Great watch @Esox it will last several lifetimes, and I saw Chris's thoughts on the design of a razor. I liked what he had to say and have tried the D,E and F plate. I loved the look and the value of the razor, but for me, in the end I found other razors gave me a smoother, more efficient shave

So I was told. I went in and asked for a watch I'd never have to replace. I expected him to hand me a Rolex, but he showed me a Tag. 25 years later its still perfect and has never failed under extreme conditions.

Karve Shaving is a company to watch, he'll keep refining his designs. It will be interesting to see where he goes with them. They also arent expensive, relatively speaking.

 

[loot]

At one time he offered the clients choice of blade gap, blade angle and blade exposure. If one knew exactly what they wanted, he'd make it for them. He still might, I have no idea.

Blade gap makes a razor more effective, no question. Given similar blade gaps though I would expect them to shave much the same. Wolfman and Timeless are the most rigid modern high end razor designs. A Timeless was on my list at one point, but then I discovered I dont get along with blade gap and the less the blade gap, the more comfortable my shave. Thats the main reason why I prefer my Grande over my SC. If I got along with blade gap I likely would have bought a Timeless, but it still wouldnt outperform my MMOC. At the same time I dont personally see the point in spending $200+CAD on an ATT SE1 just because its stainless and, arguably, nicer looking.

I own $500 Dunhill cigarette lighters and I wear a Tag watch. I appreciate nice things, but in a razor I just cant make the leap.

So because you can't make that leap, those that can and more importantly the artisans of those products are somehow wrong? So you spend lots of effort and time spewing other people opinions as facts about products you've only seen pictures of? C'mon brother, not very Ambassador-ly. is it? Just read your last sentence a couple of times. Pretty condescending. The vitriol James DuFour brings out of people is astounding.

You can have the last word, sir. I'm done with you.

 

[Esox]

So because you can't make that leap, those that can and more importantly the artisans of those products are somehow wrong? So you spend lots of effort and time spewing other people opinions as facts about products you've only seen pictures of? C'mon brother, not very Ambassador-ly. is it? Just read your last sentence a couple of times. Pretty condescending. The vitriol James DuFour brings out of people is astounding.

You can have the last word, sir. I'm done with you.

I dont recall ever saying to anyone that they were wrong. I give my opinion, like it or not, its mine. You have yours and I dont chastize you it. You're berating me my own personal preference? That was my last sentence. Thanks for making it easy though.

 

[mozartman]

So because you can't make that leap, those that can and more importantly the artisans of those products are somehow wrong? So you spend lots of effort and time spewing other people opinions as facts about products you've only seen pictures of? C'mon brother, not very Ambassador-ly. is it? Just read your last sentence a couple of times. Pretty condescending. The vitriol James DuFour brings out of people is astounding.

You can have the last word, sir. I'm done with you.

?? I don't think he said anyone was wrong. For my part, when I got into this hobby, I already knew that DE razors were still being made, at least in India and China. I was astounded and delighted to learn about the high-end and even the middle-end segments of the market. What fun. However, beautifully-made, gleaming $300-$400 artisan razors probably aren't for me either, as knowing me I would be hard pressed not to scratch them up or lose them altogether. Also, it isn't quite like a watch, which is jewelry and a fashion item worn openly in the world at large. (I usually wear a Montblanc watch, and I have Montblanc and Dunhill pens but seldom use them as I would lose them too.) Also, I can get great shaves with far less expensive razors, so although of course it's possible some of these high-end razors would be even better shavers, they seem to be a solution for a problem I don't have.

It's painfully obvious all of that applies only to me, just as what @Esox said applies only to him. I enjoy reading all of your opinions, and I'm clever enough to be able to learn from them while knowing we are all different and only my own personal experience can be conclusive for me. I suspect you're clever enough to be able to do that too.

 

[jmudrick]

Thats the main reason why I prefer my Grande over my SC. If I got along with blade gap I likely would have bought a Timeless, but it still wouldnt outperform my MMOC. At the same time I dont personally see the point in spending $200+CAD on an ATT SE1 just because its stainless and, arguably, nicer looking.

I don't think it's nicer looking, even arguably

 

[rabidus]

I would put a postwar Tech up against any high end razor. I've used many high end razors.

My $20 El Jefe blem will give me the same quality BBS results as my $185 ATT SE1. What makes the SE1 better for me is it's craftsmanship, not the shave results.

My postwar Tech shaved better than the ATT M1, R1, and H1 and they were sold. The postwar Tech is a better design, more rigid.

Expensive razors are not better shavers than inexpensive razors.

 

[loot]

?? I don't think he said anyone was wrong. For my part, when I got into this hobby, I already knew that DE razors were still being made, at least in India and China. I was astounded and delighted to learn about the high-end and even the middle-end segments of the market. What fun. However, beautifully-made, gleaming $300-$400 artisan razors probably aren't for me either, as knowing me I would be hard pressed not to scratch them up or lose them altogether. Also, it isn't quite like a watch, which is jewelry and a fashion item worn openly in the world at large. (I usually wear a Montblanc watch, and I have Montblanc and Dunhill pens but seldom use them as I would lose them too.) Also, I can get great shaves with far less expensive razors, so although of course it's possible some of these high-end razors would be even better shavers, they seem to be a solution for a problem I don't have.

It's painfully obvious all of that applies only to me, just as what @Esox said applies only to him. I enjoy reading all of your opinions, and I'm clever enough to be able to learn from them while knowing we are all different and only my own personal experience can be conclusive for me. I suspect you're clever enough to be able to do that too.

?? I don't think he said anyone was wrong. For my part, when I got into this hobby, I already knew that DE razors were still being made, at least in India and China. I was astounded and delighted to learn about the high-end and even the middle-end segments of the market. What fun. However, beautifully-made, gleaming $300-$400 artisan razors probably aren't for me either, as knowing me I would be hard pressed not to scratch them up or lose them altogether. Also, it isn't quite like a watch, which is jewelry and a fashion item worn openly in the world at large. (I usually wear a Montblanc watch, and I have Montblanc and Dunhill pens but seldom use them as I would lose them too.) Also, I can get great shaves with far less expensive razors, so although of course it's possible some of these high-end razors would be even better shavers, they seem to be a solution for a problem I don't have.

It's painfully obvious all of that applies only to me, just as what @Esox said applies only to him. I enjoy reading all of your opinions, and I'm clever enough to be able to learn from them while knowing we are all different and only my own personal experience can be conclusive for me. I suspect you're clever enough to be able to do that too.

Of course I am. However, his statement was one of fact. SC is good as a Wolfman. Insinuating i'm wrong to think otherwise. The sad part is he's never held Wolfman, let alone used one. Somehow though, with pictures, and a friend's input, the SC shaves as good as a Wolfman. OK. Whatever. Just seems like a terrible disservice. I'm sure I'm wrong tho.



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[loot]

I would put a postwar Tech up against any high end razor. I've used many high end razors.

My $20 El Jefe blem will give me the same quality BBS results as my $185 ATT SE1. What makes the SE1 better for me is it's craftsmanship, not the shave results.

My postwar Tech shaved better than the ATT M1, R1, and H1 and they were sold. The postwar Tech is a better design, more rigid.

Expensive razors are not better shavers than inexpensive razors.

Some expensive razors are indeed better than some cheap ones. I do agree tho that expense doesn't automatically make it a better shaver.


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[rabidus]

Some expensive razors are indeed better than some cheap ones.


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Better how?

A $10 Razorock DE1 will deliver a fine BBS shave if you know how to use it. How can that be topped by a more expensive razor?

There are razors that will get you to BBS more efficiently than the DE1, but that doesn't make it better, just more efficient.

What's makes an expensive razor better than an inexpensive one for you?

One of the problems I see with people is they jump around from razor to razor and keep the ones that suit their technique, never taking the time to adapt to the ones they cast off. Any razor can be excellent with good technique.

 

[Shavemd]

@rabidus for you maybe that is the case, for me, more money does not necessarily buy a better shave, however my best shaving razor is not inexpensive. I enjoy shaving with many types of razors but if I could only keep one it would be one of my titanium razors you may differ in your opinion but the shave I receive from titanium is more enjoyable.You have your opinion and I have mine but I wouldn’t go as far as you to reverse your statement and say expensive razors are better shavers than inexpensive ones. My point of this whole discussion is certain members believe they can make a global statement and if someone disagrees they must be wrong I disagree that an SC shaves as well as my Wolfman does that make my opinion vs Esox wrong, NO it’s just my opinion and I have both razors to compare

 

[Shavemd]

Better how?

A $10 Razorock DE1 will deliver a fine BBS shave if you know how to use it. How can that be topped by a more expensive razor?

There are razors that will get you to BBS more efficiently than the DE1, but that doesn't make it better, just more efficient.

What's makes an expensive razor better than an inexpensive one for you?

One of the problems I see with people is they jump around from razor to razor and keep the ones that suit their technique, never taking the time to adapt to the ones they cast off. Any razor can be excellent with good technique.

Once again, I don’t believe my technique is faulty and I have plenty of experience. Just because you prefer inexpensive razors does not mean that @loot or myself need to agree with you. You may be experienced I don’t know I have never watched you shave, nor have you seen me, so why attack our technique just because our opinion differs from you.

 

[nemo]

For a long time I questioned the efficiency of the R41, vocally around the forum, without having used one. I didnt need to use one to understand why it would be less efficient than a Fatip. Once I did use one, my experience showed me that I was in fact completely correct and my Grande is easily 2-3x's as efficient as my R41. That is however, me shaving my face, not you shaving yours.

I remember several threads and photos depicting your personal R41 as damaged, warped, crooked, misaligned or something of that nature. Is this the razor you are basing these efficiency comparisons on? Not sure if that's a valid test if made with the razor I saw in your photographs with one high corner and a low spot.

I got a wonky Fatip back about 8 years ago with a twisted cap. Certainly can't use it in any head to head tests, never!

 

[rabidus]

Once again, I don’t believe my technique is faulty and I have plenty of experience. Just because you prefer inexpensive razors does not mean that @loot or myself need to agree with you. You may be experienced I don’t know I have never watched you shave, nor have you seen me, so why attack our technique just because our opinion differs from you.

I'm not sure how I attacked you exactly, I didn't quote you!

I asked a question, what makes an expensive razor better than an inexpensive one. My grail is a $185 ATT SE1, but it doesn't shave better than my $20 El Jefe blem, both will get me BBS no problem. It's my grail for other reasons.

So a more "enjoyable" expensive razor will get you better results than an inexpensive razor?

What are the razors being judged on?

 

[Shavemd]

If all I wanted was a close shave I could use a cart. Shaving is about relaxation and enjoyment of the moment each night. So for me it is the journey I take and not just the destination.

 

[rabidus]

If all I wanted was a close shave I could use a cart.

That would still be expensive!

Shaving is about relaxation and enjoyment of the moment each night. So for me it is the journey I take and not just the destination.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that! But I believe this thread was about price for performance. I could be wrong though.

My SE1 give a complete package, like Thor with his hammer. It's terribly balanced and feels good in my hand, and is well crafted, with a Schick Proline it's perfect, but the SE1 doesn't out perform inexpensive razors as far as results and comfort. The El Jefe gives the same results and comfort.

I've never used a Wolfman, but the SC is an outstanding razor, even with the different caps it was sold with. I had 8 SC's at one time(for science) and there was 5 different cap that preformed different, all smooth for me, different levels of efficiency. It's hard to compare the SC without knowing which cap it has. The caps came from other razors Gillette sold at the time.

 

[Parallax]

What I find interesting is that what's best, even in my solitary universe, changes over time. A razor that was once the cat's meow for me, the Merker 39C, is now of almost no interest. My grail razor for numerous years now sits in a drawer because i don't want to even look at it.

I agree that price and shave satisfaction are not proportional and may not correlate at all. The satisfaction that comes from a high-end razor more relates to the satisfaction of holding and possessing something of great beauty. For me that only goes so far -- which is why I'm not jumping in with a bunch of fancy razors. My nicest so far are my two ATTs. They are good performers but by no means necessarily better than those with less weight and build quality.

My personal favorite is the Ikon Tech and, for me, nothing else touches it. A few comes close but it still stands alone. Until recently, a new iTech could be found for $65 plus tax and shipping. Now that they're hard to find the prices are escalating. But it's not the price that made it a great razor for many of us. It's actually the other way around. The scarcity that arose when they went out of production combined with continuing demand drives the price up. Recently saw one go for $270 including shipping.

Though I love my ATTs, at some point I'll probably sell one (maybe both). Because there are lots of cheap razors that satisfy me just as much. I love the ingot-like quality of the ATT. It's wonderful to hold and the H1 / H2 heads give a great shave. But then I also get a great shave with my $7 Yaqi Beast.

 

[AimlessWanderer]

I've not tried any of the high end products, hardware or software, mainly because I've not needed to. For many years I've been getting great shaves with the less expensive options. I still have the razor I started with, and 25 years later the retail price for that is £5.

The most I've paid for a razor is £30, and the most I've paid for a soap is £7. Would a £150 razor and £25 soap give me a better shave? Well, no. It can't give me better results, as there's already no stubble remaining if I chase perfection, but I may or may not enjoy it more. However, I have no inclination to find out.

As Esox pointed out earlier, I was someone for whom his beloved Fatip didn't work out. I was gifted it by someone else who also didn't get along with it. While Mike is vocal about his beliefs, and gets very vociferous about what attributes give him the best shaves, he does accept that others don't always see things his way. Him and I have a little banter about it, but we have very different philosophies and preferences, yet both end up getting the shaves we each want.

While I'll never pay the prices of the premium goods, and remain a staunch believer that great shaves can come from lower cost items, I'm not quite enough of a reverse snob to tell people they'd be wasting money on the luxury goods. We must all follow our own desires and aspirations, and if people put more value in the big ticket purchases than I do, then I wish them every success and happiness.

I'll continue to splash around in the shallow end of the pool though. I get everything I want from a shave for minimal expenditure, and am in no way left wanting. Plenty of people decry the razors and soaps I use, but my face and wallet like them. I have no need for prestige, just a great shave whenever I want it, and I don't need to open my wallet very wide for that.

 

[Hannah's Dad]

As with any productive debate, the participants should ‘define terms’ before asserting a position. I’ve read this post closely, and I’m not certain that anyone has defined the essential terms. Terms like ‘efficient’, ‘better’, ‘smoothness’, ‘quality’, ‘expensive’ et cetera are easily influenced by one’s personal experience and, perhaps, one’s own bias (recency bias, cost bias, they own stock in Fatip, etc.).

Until terms are clearly defined, this thread will just continue to be an exercise in question-begging.