Setting the Bevel with the Burr Method

[Slash McCoy]

Noob question here. Planning to try the method with some old vintage razors. Ordered lapping film 5u, 3u, 1u and making balsa strops with .5, .25, and .1 diamond paste. What grit sandpaper should I use to set my bevel? Was thinking 1000. Once my bevel is set can I just jump to the 5u lapping film?

Bluesman gets the cigar. 600 works nice for general bevel setting as long as you up your game to about 1200 grit as the bevel comes in. Using the burr method, you can raise just part of the burr, flip and do the other side, then upshift to finer paper and bring the burr out on the entire edge with the finer stuff. Or raise the full burr with 600 and hone it off with the 1200. Whatever. You can indeed start with 1000 and this is a good start with a razor that really does look to have a decent bevel already. For that matter, you could start at 2000 grit if it really looks nice. Less steel wasted honing out deep coarse scratches that way. YMMV of course. Do it like you feel it.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I've read this thread many times. Yesterday I tried for the first time actually honing a blade. My "victim" was a new from Amazon "shave-ready" bizarrely ground Gold Dollar 1996.

I used a New Chosera 1K and Keith's method (see the video in this post, linked), but I quit with the 1K knowing it wasn't totally right yet. I'd done a million laps and gave up. Then I moved to my 3K stone. From there I finished on an 8K. For full details see my post yesterday, linked.

The proof was in the pudding. That is to say the pudding was a lot better than I feared it might be, but the shave was still lousy.

Yes, I broke the rule. I'm not yet a skilled shaver with the SR. Far from it. One of my problems is none of my razors seem sharp to me. Two are professionally honed GD razors (by Classic Edge and WSP). One is a ZY gifted to me by a generous member. Another problem is I'm not sure what s sharp SR is like; my abilities to evaluate are immature.

An obvious third problem in my general SR and honing extreme newbie state. I'm newer than an African nation which was renamed yesterday.

I have a nice enough B&L 5X loupe but no real good idea yet of how far to go with the 3K and 8K stones. However, that doesn't matter work a fig until the bevel is right so who cares.

Anyway, the point of all this is to say what a great thread this is. Combined with the little bit of experience I gained yesterday I get what's being discussed a lot more than I have on previous readings of the thread.

Rome wasn't built in a morning.

I'm going back to the 1K (not today because I want to watch college football) and will try the burr method. I will also try to hone in hand if I can hold the stones in the air that long. I suspect my edge is pretty close so maybe I won't have to do a million passes.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Acmemfg]

Just finished working on a GD 1996 last week. Started with a DMT 600 and then a Naniwa SS 1k. Indeed it can be tedious but it can be done with patience...and patience...and patience.
Then I moved to a 3k-12k progression. Great results

 

[Slash McCoy]

Jim, Don't quit on the bevel setter until the bevel is set, no matter what method you use to set it or test it. EVERYTHING depends on the bevel. You can polish the incomplete bevel for hours and it will still not be sharp. Set that bevel.

The GD and ZY razors can be made as sharp as humanly possible, but the bevel angle is somewhat obuse. Another word for blunt. Blunt like a perfectly machined edge on a cold chisel, or a cube, to stretch the analogy. Doens't mean they won't shave. Only that the shave can be perceptibly different with significant differences in bevel angle, even when honed by the same hand. So try a shave ready vintage razor, which will probably be considerably more acute. You might not think there is any real difference, or you might find it an epiphany. Subjective.

Just being a few shaves in is still a great advantage over having never even attempted a straight shave. You have already tried your hand at shaving, and at honing. You are already in the deep end of the pool. Now it is time to start swimming. You CAN do this. Everyone else who has really tried, has succeeded.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

View attachment 919461
Just finished working on a GD 1996 last week. Started with a DMT 600 and then a Naniwa SS 1k. Indeed it can be tedious but it can be done with patience...and patience...and patience.
Then I moved to a 3k-12k progression. Great results

That edge looks sharp in the photo. Nice!

It would be a good time for me to have a more coarse stone, but I don't.

Congratulations on a good job and great results. Inspirational it is.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[steveclarkus]

I've read this thread many times. Yesterday I tried for the first time actually honing a blade. My "victim" was a new from Amazon "shave-ready" bizarrely ground Gold Dollar 1996.

I used a New Chosera 1K and Keith's method (see the video in this post, linked), but I quit with the 1K knowing it wasn't totally right yet. I'd done a million laps and gave up. Then I moved to my 3K stone. From there I finished on an 8K. For full details see my post yesterday, linked.

View attachment 919457

The proof was in the pudding. That is to say the pudding was a lot better than I feared it might be, but the shave was still lousy.

Yes, I broke the rule. I'm not yet a skilled shaver with the SR. Far from it. One of my problems is none of my razors seem sharp to me. Two are professionally honed GD razors (by Classic Edge and WSP). One is a ZY gifted to me by a generous member. Another problem is I'm not sure what s sharp SR is like; my abilities to evaluate are immature.

An obvious third problem in my general SR and honing extreme newbie state. I'm newer than an African nation which was renamed yesterday.

I have a nice enough B&L 5X loupe but no real good idea yet of how far to go with the 3K and 8K stones. However, that doesn't matter work a fig until the bevel is right so who cares.

Anyway, the point of all this is to say what a great thread this is. Combined with the little bit of experience I gained yesterday I get what's being discussed a lot more than I have on previous readings of the thread.

Rome wasn't built in a morning.

View attachment 919458

I'm going back to the 1K (not today because I want to watch college football) and will try the burr method. I will also try to hone in hand if I can hold the stones in the air that long. I suspect my edge is pretty close so maybe I won't have to do a million passes.

Happy shaves,

Jim

Here is another way and effective:

 

[seattleshaver]

I think you are going to put a lot of spine wear using the above method using the 600. I've never had to use anything other than a 1k to set the bevel. The only time I've gone lower was just to start the removal process for a pit which I finished up with on the 1k.

Maybe sure the should on the GB isn't keeping your edge from actually having contact with the stone.

I've gotten a GB just as sharp as any other blade but for a newer person it might be easier to start with a decent but inexpensive vintage razor. Something not too narrower and not a wedge.

I don't try to raise a burr however.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Here is another way and effective:

le

I've watched another of his videos (or maybe this one) before and enjoyed it then, too. Interesting guy. Interesting honing. I like what he's doing as it looks, at least, quite simple. Of course, I know many things look very simple and easy when done by experienced experts.

Anyway, it's a video worth watching.

He finishes on a very nice looking, large jnat. Wonder what that baby cost? I was unable to find one just like it for sale, but similar looking jnats are expensive. Some are extremely expensive. Others are only expensive.

Thanks for telling me about this video. No doubt a guy could do worse than following his method. I could adapt the use of my stones to a modified version of what he's doing I think.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I think you are going to put a lot of spine wear using the above method using the 600. I've never had to use anything other than a 1k to set the bevel. The only time I've gone lower was just to start the removal process for a pit which I finished up with on the 1k.

Maybe sure the should on the GB isn't keeping your edge from actually having contact with the stone.

I've gotten a GB just as sharp as any other blade but for a newer person it might be easier to start with a decent but inexpensive vintage razor. Something not too narrower and not a wedge.

I don't try to raise a burr however.

I have a 1K but not a 600.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Big, recangular, high quality Jnats CAN be extremely expensive, sure. Some of the value is due to the particular mine it came from, or even the swirls of color in the stone, believe it or not. $300 will get you a great big Jnat that will hone as well as any Jnat you can get. You don't have to spend 4 figure prices to get the best Jnat edge possible. I have a fairly large stone that does fairly well and I think I paid $100 for it. Not my idea of the perfect rock, but if I was into Jnats I could make it work for me okayish. I have shaved off it, and an acknowledged Jnat expert has used it and pronounced it fit to use as a finisher. Expensive, not. Usable, even desireable, yup.

You can actually pay more for a handful of nice naguras (slurry stones) than for the base stone. The dirty little secret is you can use a pocket size DMT card to raise a base stone slurry and totally eliminate the need for all but a few of them. See, some slurry is raised from the base stone. Some is a product of the slurry stone. Sometimes it is a combination of the two. Sometimes the slurry is initially raised, but working the same slurry will break it down into a finer slurry. Jnat honing can be very complex that way. Or simple, however you want to look at it. To me, it is just an eternal struggle to equal a .1u diamond balsa edge. To others, it is nirvana and the eternal pursuit of it.

 

[seattleshaver]

I have a 1K but not a 600.

I was referring to the video. He started out with 600 I believe.

 

[Seveneighth]

If I am using natural stones I follow bevel 101, if I am using synthetics I use the burr method. But perversely, with bevel 101 I prefer to hone in hand, and with burr on bench. Therefore I am a bad student of both masters!!! LOL

That's just what works for me.

 

[HippieDave]

I tried setting a bevel with the burr method but could never "feel" a burr on the edge of the razor, however this put me in the right direction. This all takes time.
The stone I used to set my first bevel was from a Rolls Razor. I don't know what grit it is but I could tell it was cutting. I did 20 to 40 reps on one side of the blade then the same on the other side. Don't be afraid to use pressure (a lot) on the blade. I did this 3 or 4 times then did normal laps for 10 minutes (using a timer). I don't know how many times I repeated this but I was able to get the razor to shave arm hair along the whole edge. It takes time!
I then went to a Belgian Blue, set the timer for 30 minutes and started lapping. After 30 minutes of lapping on the stone I did 100 laps on a strop. Did this 2 or 3 more times and each time the edge improved but I still couldn't get it to "Tree Top". All this time the stones where on the table and I used both hands to lap, razor held in right hand, thumb of left hand to steady the blade, very little to no pressure.
I then tried a Blue Thuringian but held the stone in my left hand. This made a world of difference. I found that I could alien the stone to the flat of the blade instead of only aliening the blade to the flat of the stone. It allows me to use very little pressure which is what you need to get that "Tree Topping Edge". I also found that I was moving the stone under the blade as much as moving the blade over the stone. Far more control. Lap on stone for 30 minutes, strop 100 laps, repeat till Tree Topping is achieved.
Note: Belgian Coticule, Belgian Blue and Thuringian hones are said to be impossible to over hone a razor. Keep this in mind if you are using another type of honing stone.
As for shaving with a straight razor, I can only shave my right cheek and neck WTG (down).
But the difference between "shaving arm hair" and "Tree Topping" is unbelievable until you feel it.
However this all TAKES TIME! Once you start to see results keep trying, keep learning, it will start to go a little faster, then a little more faster, then you're there.
Good luck and hang in there.

 

[ouch]

Jim, Don't quit on the bevel setter until the bevel is set, no matter what method you use to set it or test it. EVERYTHING depends on the bevel. You can polish the incomplete bevel for hours and it will still not be sharp. Set that bevel.

This.

Learn it. Love it. Live it.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Jim, Don't quit on the bevel setter until the bevel is set, no matter what method you use to set it or test it. EVERYTHING depends on the bevel. You can polish the incomplete bevel for hours and it will still not be sharp. Set that bevel.

The GD and ZY razors can be made as sharp as humanly possible, but the bevel angle is somewhat obuse. Another word for blunt. Blunt like a perfectly machined edge on a cold chisel, or a cube, to stretch the analogy. Doens't mean they won't shave. Only that the shave can be perceptibly different with significant differences in bevel angle, even when honed by the same hand. So try a shave ready vintage razor, which will probably be considerably more acute. You might not think there is any real difference, or you might find it an epiphany. Subjective.

Just being a few shaves in is still a great advantage over having never even attempted a straight shave. You have already tried your hand at shaving, and at honing. You are already in the deep end of the pool. Now it is time to start swimming. You CAN do this. Everyone else who has really tried, has succeeded.

Slash, this is exactly what I needed to hear at this exact moment.

I think you are going to put a lot of spine wear using the above method using the 600. I've never had to use anything other than a 1k to set the bevel. The only time I've gone lower was just to start the removal process for a pit which I finished up with on the 1k.

Maybe sure the should on the GB isn't keeping your edge from actually having contact with the stone.

I've gotten a GB just as sharp as any other blade but for a newer person it might be easier to start with a decent but inexpensive vintage razor. Something not too narrower and not a wedge.

I don't try to raise a burr however.

Not to worry. I'd use a 600 (or maybe a 300) if I had one, but I don't. I have a 1000.

Thanks, gentlemen. I'm honing right now and took a break to check out something I needed to know, but these popped up. Slash's being perfectly timely.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I tried setting a bevel with the burr method but could never "feel" a burr on the edge of the razor, however this put me in the right direction. This all takes time.
The stone I used to set my first bevel was from a Rolls Razor. I don't know what grit it is but I could tell it was cutting. I did 20 to 40 reps on one side of the blade then the same on the other side. Don't be afraid to use pressure (a lot) on the blade. I did this 3 or 4 times then did normal laps for 10 minutes (using a timer). I don't know how many times I repeated this but I was able to get the razor to shave arm hair along the whole edge. It takes time!
I then went to a Belgian Blue, set the timer for 30 minutes and started lapping. After 30 minutes of lapping on the stone I did 100 laps on a strop. Did this 2 or 3 more times and each time the edge improved but I still couldn't get it to "Tree Top". All this time the stones where on the table and I used both hands to lap, razor held in right hand, thumb of left hand to steady the blade, very little to no pressure.
I then tried a Blue Thuringian but held the stone in my left hand. This made a world of difference. I found that I could alien the stone to the flat of the blade instead of only aliening the blade to the flat of the stone. It allows me to use very little pressure which is what you need to get that "Tree Topping Edge". I also found that I was moving the stone under the blade as much as moving the blade over the stone. Far more control. Lap on stone for 30 minutes, strop 100 laps, repeat till Tree Topping is achieved.
Note: Belgian Coticule, Belgian Blue and Thuringian hones are said to be impossible to over hone a razor. Keep this in mind if you are using another type of honing stone.
As for shaving with a straight razor, I can only shave my right cheek and neck WTG (down).
But the difference between "shaving arm hair" and "Tree Topping" is unbelievable until you feel it.
However this all TAKES TIME! Once you start to see results keep trying, keep learning, it will start to go a little faster, then a little more faster, then you're there.
Good luck and hang in there.

Great advice.

I'd be happy to have a natural stone to finish, but I'm very far from knowing which direction to go with 'em + mortified at what they cost + worried about how much I've already spent on honing stuff.

What a rabbit hole!

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Earcutter]

Funny, I learned the burr method decades ago when I got started with knives. It was a Godsend. It saved me hours of work because as stated already, without a solid bevel, everything else is useless. And because i didn’t have access to cheap diamond plates back then, honing took a while longer, so if I blew the bevel and had to restart, it was killer!

I’ve never felt the need to do it with my straights. I can feel if i’ve set the bevel on the stone now, but I can see how it would help a noob. Good post. I can’t stress enough though, if that wire isn’t running along the entire length of the blade, it’s all for not.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

This thread is really useful to a newbie honer like me. Thanks, gentlemen.

I honed my GD 1996 for the second time and shaved with it. Link to shave and honing report on my Damn Comfortable Shave thread.

Happy shaves to everyone,

Jim

 

[RumpleBearskin]

This thread is really useful to a newbie honer like me.

I'll second ... um ... third that. I was really struggling with my first several, attempts (i.e., 6 months) at honing. This thread made it click and my last attempt on the practice razor actually resulted in a great edge. Tonight I killed it, reset the bevel, and brought it up to tree topping @ 1/4" (Norton 1k, 4k, 8k, Naniwa 12k, .5u, .25u, .1u diamond pasted balsa).

That gave me the confidence to try my first "non-practice" razor. Still an eBay cheapie (Johan Engstrom Frameback), but one that I wanted to try to see if I wanted in my rotation. Went from flat dull to tree topping! Tomorrow (well, later this morning) will be the shave test (as well as a test of my skill with such a narrow tang).

So again, many, many thanks to all the knowledgeable, friendly, and helpful folks on this forum.

 

[Slash McCoy]

This thread is really useful to a newbie honer like me. Thanks, gentlemen.

I honed my GD 1996 for the second time and shaved with it. Link to shave and honing report on my Damn Comfortable Shave thread.

Happy shaves to everyone,

Jim

Now that you know how to set a bevel, you might want a coarser hone for razors that need a lot of steel stripped off in order to achieve the all important end to end bevel. Oh no, gotta spend more money!!!!! Not. if you have a spare acrylic or stone or glass block, take a piece of 320 grit sandpaper (try 1/3 sheet, creased and torn or cut lengthwise) and stick it to the plate with spray adhesive. If you are very careful to roll it down onto the plate perfectly flat with no bubbles or debris under it, you will have a VERY flat hone, with customized grit. Want coarser? Finer? Do it like you feel it. You will save yourself a lot of time, and a lot of wear on your bevel setter.

The trick to using very coarse media for honing is to stop BEFORE you have a completely set bevel, and move on to the 1k. As the 1k is honing out the deep scratch pattern left by the 320 or 200 or 400 or whatever, it is also bringing the bevel home. So you will not have removed excessive steel, only that which needed to come off anyway. The only difference is the first bit was removed quickly instead of slowly.

A diamond plate is also good for this. Even a cheapie can be useful as long as you don't stay on it too long. What is nice about sandpaper though, is you can change the paper (use acetone to remove glue residue) and have a fresh surface, and it is always flat.

Sounds like you are getting it. Congratulations!