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L&L Grooming - Optimization Results, Review, Photos, Details

5th Addition to Optimum Lather Table: L&L Grooming Comes in at #2! Stirling Still at #1!



(Picture shows unused jar with 4 oz. of soap)

Purchase Date: August 11, 2017

Ingredients: Stearic Acid, Water, Potassium Hydroxide, Avocado Oil, Vegetable Glycerin, Bison Tallow, Mango Seed Butter, Castor Oil, Fragrance, Sodium Hydroxide, Lanolin, Bentonite Clay, Hippophae Rhamnoides (Sea Buckthorn) Fruit Extract, Salix Alba L. (White Willow) Bark Extract, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed Extract, Phenoxyethanol, Caprylyl Glycol, Sorbic Acid [Note: "Fragrance" does not belong here because this soap is the unscented version]

Container: The jar and cap are made of translucent, nearly clear plastic and have smooth sides. The top of the cap is smooth with no lip and has a slick, water-resistant circular label on it. The cap does not have a foam liner. There is no label on the jar, so the soap can be easily seen. The height of the jar with the cap screwed on is about 1.59 in. and the height of the jar without the cap is about 1.50 in. The outer diameter of the jar is about 3.80 in. and the outer diameter of the cap is about 4.09 in. The inner diameter of the jar is about 3.66 in.

Color: Brownish

Scent: The scent is very faint and inoffensive since the soap is unscented

Hardness: This soap is soft and actually feels like a thick cream when scooped out of its jar and pressed into the bottom of a lather bowl

Loading and Building: Given the softness of this soap, it is easy to load more soap than desired or needed. When building lather with measured amounts of soap and water in a lathering bowl, the soap seems to largely disappear at first. This correlates with timer results which indicate that it takes more time than average to build lather with this soap.

Optimization Results with Exact Lathers: Thirty-five (35) daily shaves were conducted from September 16, 2017, to October 20, 2017, with total mass ranging from 8.5 g to 11.0 g and water-to-soap ratio ranging from 6 to 14. Testing this soap took much longer than expected. It didn't take long to figure out that the best mass was roughly around 9.0 g to 9.5 g, but the optimum water-to-soap ratio threw me off. Originally, I was zeroing in on a water-to-soap ratio of around 9.5 to 10, but the lather and shaves did not seem as good as with lower water-to-soap ratios, so I revisted the issue and found that even though the friction was more, I was able to get better shaves with lower water-to-soap ratios that provided more cushion and protection, less nicks and cuts, and better post-shave results. With more daily shaves, I eventually settled on an optimum water-to-soap ratio of 8.5 with a total mass of 9.5 g. The resulting lather has a pretty good or good sheen with some yogurt-like behavior and only a few small bubbles. Adhesion and application smoothness are pretty good or good, cushion is pretty good, and the post-shave is good. The key to finding the optimum was reconciling the tradeoff between slickness and protection. Slickness for the optimum lather is okay to good, mostly good, with friction near the end of passes, and slickness was found to be similar or slightly better with higher water-to-soap ratios. However, the higher the water-to-soap ratio, the more cuts I got. The lather noticeably loses its really nice character as more water is added, becoming a little slicker but less protective with less cushion and a post-shave that is not as good. I wish that the optimum lather had more slickness, but I couldn't justify it at the expense of better shaves.

Ranking Results: Next-day testing against Stirling's optimum lather confirmed that Stirling definitely performed better with respect to slickness, resulting in a better shave, even though the cushion and post-shave were not quite as good as with L&L Grooming. Next-day testing against Sudsy Soapery's optimum lather confirmed that L&L Grooming performed significantly better with respect to cushion, protection, and post-shave, but slickness was similar, except that slickness with Sudsy Soapery seemed to start a little better and decrease with blade buffing due to less residual slickness compared to L&L Grooming. Overall, previous and new optimization results indicated that L&L Grooming is better than Sudsy Soapery, but worse than Stirling, and the recent comparison shaves yielded the expected result. The shaves with Stirling and Sudsy Soapery matched well to previous results, but total masses were found to be too high and both soaps produced slickness that was not as much as expected by the language that I used. My standards have shifted. I will update the optimum lather table for those soaps in the near future.

Final Thoughts: I like L&L Grooming. In fact, when I first started using a scented version of L&L Grooming, before I started doing any of this lather optimization stuff, I really liked L&L Grooming, despite its cost, and originally thought that L&L Grooming might have become my favorite soap. After I started optimizing lather, though, I went through what I had left of that scented version of L&L Grooming and concluded that Stirling was better. This time around with the unscented version of L&L Grooming, I went through the optimization process and came to the same conclusion. Stirling performs a little better overall.

Optimum Lather Table


Performance RankingSoap/CreamSoap/Cream Mass (g)Water Mass (g)Total Mass (g)Water-to-Soap/Cream RatioSoap/Cream Price (USD)
1Stirling Soap Co. Naked & Smooth Shave Soap1.210.812.09.000.09
2L&L Grooming Unscented Shaving Soap1.08.59.58.500.16
3The Sudsy Soapery Sandalwood & Myrrh Shave Soap0.98.69.59.560.10
4Barrister & Mann Latha Unscented Shaving Soap1.08.09.08.000.09
5Lisa's Natural Herbal Creations Sandalwood Wet Shave Soap0.87.28.09.000.06
General Notes:
  • As documented on August 27, 2017, soap/cream and moderately hard water masses were directly measured in a smooth lathering bowl, using a 0.1 g resolution scale, and lather was built using a dry synthetic brush, so as to make exact lather
  • Based on slower three-pass shaves with blade buffing using a smooth chrome-plated DE safety razor and agreeable blades and blade exposures, water-to-soap/cream ratio was optimized to the nearest 0.5 value while total mass was simultaneously optimized as precisely as could be accomplished by varying soap/cream and water masses from day to day. Lather from inside the brush was used as much as possible in order to effectively eliminate the influence of the brush on total mass.
  • Rankings were aided by revisiting previously determined optimums and comparing optimum lathers in sequential shaves
  • Prices are current for the specific soaps and creams that were evaluated. Prices for similar offerings are used for scents that are no longer available.
  • The table is sortable such that clicking on a column heading sorts the rows according to that column's data, and clicking on the column heading again reverses the sorting order. Product names are links to optimization result threads.
Ranking Notes:
  1. Stirling Soap Co. Naked & Smooth Shave Soap: Lather takes time to build up, developing into a lighter lather with a smooth consistency and a nice sheen. Slickness is mostly very good, but there is typically some friction near the end of passes. Cushion is okay, but lather lightness prevents cushion from being good. Post-shave is pretty good, but on the dry side.
  2. L&L Grooming Unscented Shaving Soap: Lather takes time to build up, but it has some yogurt-like behavior and only a few small bubbles. Adhesion and application smoothness are pretty good or good. Slickness is okay to good, mostly good, with friction near the end of passes. Cushion is pretty good. Post-shave is good.
  3. The Sudsy Soapery Sandalwood & Myrrh Shave Soap: Lather is neither like yogurt nor creamy, but there are few large bubbles. Slickness is good to very good. Cushion is fine. Post-shave is relatively dry.
  4. Barrister & Mann Latha Unscented Shaving Soap: Lather is neither like yogurt nor creamy, but lather is uniform with respect to very small air cells. Lather does not have much adhesion to skin during application. Sheen is nice, but not brilliant. Slickness is mostly good with some very good moments, but there is some friction near the end of passes. Cushion is not much, although it is fine. Post-shave is kind of dry with some overall irritation.
  5. Lisa's Natural Herbal Creations Sandalwood Wet Shave Soap: Lather is airy with uniformly tiny air cells and few visible small air bubbles. Sheen is okay, but not good or brilliant. Adhesion to skin is pretty good. Application is smooth enough, but not very smooth. Slickness is okay overall, with some good moments and virtually no stick-slip, but there is friction at times and near the end of passes. Cushion is okay, but it is not much. Post-shave is fairly dry with some irritation that probably corresponds with the irritation felt during and after application for the third pass.
 
Wow. Amazing well documented review. Thanks.

You're welcome. Thanks for reading it. Next up are updates for Stirling and Sudsy Soapery to drop down the total masses and tweak the descriptions. Then, I'll get to optimizing MWF, if I can handle it. MWF is like the opposite of L&L Grooming in how it builds lather. L&L Grooming disappears while MWF explodes. :001_smile
 
Wow, that's some analysis!

Thanks! :001_smile After MWF, I'll probably get to B&M Cheshire and then L'Occitane. The optimum lather table will keep growing. As it stands now, it looks like the overall optimum water-to-soap ratio across different soaps is around 9. The overall optimum three-pass lather mass for me is around 9 g to 10 g, but that would definitely vary because of one's face and brush and application technique. Water-to-soap ratio could also vary according to individual preference, with one person favoring thicker lather and another guy favoring thinner lather. I favor thicker lather, but when optimizing, that bias basically goes out the window as I objectively compare shaving results. I've battled with my bias and now it's not an issue anymore.
 
It does depend what type of razor you’re using. I usually mix a thick creamy lather as well, but found with the Asylm RX it needs to be a bit thinner which I’m told is the same for using a straight razor.
 
That is some serious "by-the-numbers" analysis right there, thanks.

Without in depth analysis you do, your ranking (and description) of Sudsy and B&M are in exact order I'd place them too. You mentioning that L&L and Stirling both performed better, well, they have my attention now. :D
 
It does depend what type of razor you’re using. I usually mix a thick creamy lather as well, but found with the Asylm RX it needs to be a bit thinner which I’m told is the same for using a straight razor.

Absolutely. I started with the PAA DOC Satin, which I didn't realize at the time could handle thicker lather. When I switched to the EJ Kelvin, I got a rude awakening about lather hydration. One of the notes under the optimum lather table mentions how the results are based on "slower three-pass shaves with blade buffing using a smooth chrome-plated DE safety razor and agreeable blades and blade exposures". I don't know the blade exposure of the Asylm RX, but it might be high like with a straight razor, and the more blade exposure, the more one needs a slick lather. I've experienced that for myself just with the EJ Kelvin.
 
That is some serious "by-the-numbers" analysis right there, thanks.

Without in depth analysis you do, your ranking (and description) of Sudsy and B&M are in exact order I'd place them too. You mentioning that L&L and Stirling both performed better, well, they have my attention now. :D

You're welcome. Thanks for sharing your ranking thoughts. I'm glad that we have some agreement. It's amazing how different soaps are! If you haven't tried Stirling, I recommend it. It's a good soap, and even though my ranking results have nothing to do with price, I include price in the table and that makes Stirling one of the best values out there. I'm willing to pay more for better performance, though, and I'm sure that Stirling will someday be knocked down from #1 in my table. :001_smile
 
You're welcome. Thanks for sharing your ranking thoughts. I'm glad that we have some agreement. It's amazing how different soaps are! If you haven't tried Stirling, I recommend it. It's a good soap, and even though my ranking results have nothing to do with price, I include price in the table and that makes Stirling one of the best values out there. I'm willing to pay more for better performance, though, and I'm sure that Stirling will someday be knocked down from #1 in my table. :001_smile

I agree with you on the price, unless it's getting crazy high, that's where I get really demanding.

Stirling is on my list for sure, thanks for your recommendation, but first I have to finish one tub of what I currently have, I promised myself never to have more than 5 creams/soaps in my permanent rotation - kinda silly I suppose, but that's "the rule".

Over the past year or so, I've been trying really hard to strike the balance between soaps and creams, but I find that no matter how much I like the soap's performance, slight dryness of my face that follows when using them just isn't there with my favorite creams. I noticed that comment in your ranking notes for all of these soaps (and agree for two I'm familiar with).
 
I agree with you on the price, unless it's getting crazy high, that's where I get really demanding.

I agree. I don't know if I'll ever even try a "crazy high" priced soap or cream because the price turns me off to even try it. :001_smile

Stirling is on my list for sure, thanks for your recommendation, but first I have to finish one tub of what I currently have, I promised myself never to have more than 5 creams/soaps in my permanent rotation - kinda silly I suppose, but that's "the rule".

No problem. Glad to help. Your rule might be awful for some, but it works for you. Rules help us keep our disorder in check. I have a rule about not buying a new razor until I'm done evaluating the current one.

Over the past year or so, I've been trying really hard to strike the balance between soaps and creams, but I find that no matter how much I like the soap's performance, slight dryness of my face that follows when using them just isn't there with my favorite creams. I noticed that comment in your ranking notes for all of these soaps (and agree for two I'm familiar with).

That's interesting. You're right about the dryness that I'm noting. L&L Grooming has the best post-shave out of the soaps that I've tried. Your experience with creams versus soaps reminds me that I need to try a cream sometime. Maybe, like you, I'd find that creams provide better post-shaves.
 
I wanted to get some L&L Grooming, mostly in an effort to buy local since I live in Georgia. But the cost was simply too high. Your research confirms that I made the right decision.

They may produce a very fine soap, but when I can get Stirling much cheaper...
 
I wanted to get some L&L Grooming, mostly in an effort to buy local since I live in Georgia. But the cost was simply too high. Your research confirms that I made the right decision.

They may produce a very fine soap, but when I can get Stirling much cheaper...

I hear ya. I'm glad that I could help. :001_smile
 
Intriguing analysis. I might of missed this but I'd be interested to know how you are evaluating post shave in a systematic way?

Not totally different from my own (far) less scientific experience. I commented on this recently in a different thread but I have a lot of experience shaving with both L&L and Sudsy Soapery. I have 2 scents from both makers (edit: woops, 3 scents from L&L) and I consider them both to be in the top tier of the soaps that I have.

My experience has been that at its ideal lather, the shaving experience with L&L is better than with Sudsy. I find it to be super slick and protective. Sudsy is as well but not quite to the degree of L&L. Sudsy, however, I feel offers a more moisturizing post shave. L&L, I think, is better than average in terms of post shave but in my view this would be where the performance is weakest vs. other top tier soaps.

I do also have an old tub of Stirling and have also sampled more recent product as well. For me, I don't find it to be quite as good as L&L or Sudsy in really any respect. Once I am done trying Grooming Dept (landed at my house today), I will come back to Stirling and try to dial it in some more.

Very interesting analysis though - I really appreciate the hard work! I would also high suggest the Wholly Kaw Donkey Milk soaps if you are interested in adding another soap to your stable. That is currently my top soap overall.
 
Intriguing analysis. I might of missed this but I'd be interested to know how you are evaluating post shave in a systematic way?

Thanks for the feedback. You asked a good question. In the link in the first note under the table, I state, "After a reasonable amount of time has passed, the post-shave is evaluated." I never define a "reasonable amount of time". It's been a few to several minutes after the shave. To me, that's reasonable. Waiting too long---on the order of an hour?---makes the effect of the soap and shave diminish as the skin equilibrates to normal. The time that passes before post-shave evaluation is partly practical, too, because I want to type my notes for the shave shortly after the shave and get my post-shave evaluation in there as well.

Not totally different from my own (far) less scientific experience. I commented on this recently in a different thread but I have a lot of experience shaving with both L&L and Sudsy Soapery. I have 2 scents from both makers (edit: woops, 3 scents from L&L) and I consider them both to be in the top tier of the soaps that I have.

My experience has been that at its ideal lather, the shaving experience with L&L is better than with Sudsy. I find it to be super slick and protective. Sudsy is as well but not quite to the degree of L&L. Sudsy, however, I feel offers a more moisturizing post shave. L&L, I think, is better than average in terms of post shave but in my view this would be where the performance is weakest vs. other top tier soaps.

Our experiences are different, that's for sure. At least you found your overall best shave from L&L to be better than with Sudsy, which matches my findings. If I might offer a plausible explanation for part of your experience, I think that you are probably using more water with L&L than I am with the optimum lather that I found for the soap. If I add more water to my L&L optimum, then the slickness can beat Sudsy, I'm sure, but the post-shave deteriorates too much.

I do also have an old tub of Stirling and have also sampled more recent product as well. For me, I don't find it to be quite as good as L&L or Sudsy in really any respect. Once I am done trying Grooming Dept (landed at my house today), I will come back to Stirling and try to dial it in some more.

Now we really differ! :laugh: You know, I have a feeling that there might be an ingredient-sensitivity issue going on here. I looked back at the ingredients for the soaps and found that my top soaps are not made with coconut oil, but my bottom soaps are. I wasn't going for that. I had no idea that was happening, but that's a correlation that I recently noticed after having evaluated five soaps. It's a strong correlation, I think. Coconut oil is the second ingredient for Sudsy Soapery. I'm thinking that I'm more sensitive to coconut oil than you are.

Very interesting analysis though - I really appreciate the hard work! I would also high suggest the Wholly Kaw Donkey Milk soaps if you are interested in adding another soap to your stable. That is currently my top soap overall.

Thanks! You're welcome. Keep your eyes out for updates, and thanks for the recommendation of Wholly Kaw. I've heard about this soap and I believe that it's already in my potential purchase list. :001_smile
 
Our experiences are different, that's for sure. At least you found your overall best shave from L&L to be better than with Sudsy, which matches my findings. If I might offer a plausible explanation for part of your experience, I think that you are probably using more water with L&L than I am with the optimum lather that I found for the soap. If I add more water to my L&L optimum, then the slickness can beat Sudsy, I'm sure, but the post-shave deteriorates too much.

I actually don't think that is the case. Or... hmmm. How could I know? I'll say this. On a relative basis, I generally prefer the denser / thicker lather that I get from L&L before it starts thinning out from my collecting water following each passes rinse. Hopefully that makes sense. I do tend to load fairly heavy (45-60s) with a damp brush and I would agree that L&L is a fairly "thirsty" soap in the sense that stringyish soap you initially get when short on water isn't really a shavable lather. Anyway, kinda rambling here so I'll let it go.


Now we really differ! :laugh: You know, I have a feeling that there might be an ingredient-sensitivity issue going on here. I looked back at the ingredients for the soaps and found that my top soaps are not made with coconut oil, but my bottom soaps are. I wasn't going for that. I had no idea that was happening, but that's a correlation that I recently noticed after having evaluated five soaps. It's a strong correlation, I think. Coconut oil is the second ingredient for Sudsy Soapery. I'm thinking that I'm more sensitive to coconut oil than you are.

For the most part, I really don't have sensitive skin and I am not sensitive to coconut oil. The only sensitivity that I think I've run into is fairly minor and from B&M Lavanille.

Keep up the good work! Like I said before, I found your work to be a really insightful read.
 
@stook with Stirling you should be able to get lather that is on the thick side and that is one of the slickest around.

Stirling has a wide hydration band and you don't reach the really slick until the wetter end of that band. Unfortunately, I don't think a lot of people are getting the full awesome that is Stirling. But even under hydrated, it's still a fine soap.

If you own it, I would encourage you to do a test lather where your goal is not to shave but to watch the lather over different hydration points to really understand what it needs and where it's at it's best. You basically start dry and just keep slowly adding water and then check the lather l, then add water, etc. you are done once the lather starts breaking down on you. This is a great exercise to do with any soap, but it really pays off well for soaps with a wider hydration band.

I think Stirling's weakest point is post shave. It's good, just not great like many others.

It's strengths are slickness, choice and quality of scents, and lather quality (for me at least)
 
Thanks, yah, I think either you or David mentioned this to me in the pass around thread. I really need to dig up my review to see what I wrote at the time. I received an older tub of the Stirling Spice from a member that sold me my Slim almost a year ago when I was starting. It's basically lost it's scent and looks a bit funky so I was never quite sure about it. I use it mainly for brush testing and, crazy as this sounds, face lathering to clean up after yard work and such. I realize that sounds like a horrible waste. What can I say, it was a free PIF basically.

I'll slot it back in to the rotation to try to dial in the lather for shaving.
 
I actually don't think that is the case. Or... hmmm. How could I know? I'll say this. On a relative basis, I generally prefer the denser / thicker lather that I get from L&L before it starts thinning out from my collecting water following each passes rinse. Hopefully that makes sense. I do tend to load fairly heavy (45-60s) with a damp brush and I would agree that L&L is a fairly "thirsty" soap in the sense that stringyish soap you initially get when short on water isn't really a shavable lather. Anyway, kinda rambling here so I'll let it go.

Yeah, we really don't know. I was just conjecturing. What you said about your lather getting thinner as your shave progresses made perfect sense. I detailed how I make exact lather with measured soap and water masses in a bowl, use a dry synthetic brush to not add extra water, and "take extra time to wipe away excess water in order to minimize alterations to the lather when it is applied to my face" (B&B URL). After having been doing this for months with different soaps, I can say that my lather from pass to pass is virtually unchanged. So, any denser/thicker lather that I make remains dense/thick from start to finish. If extra water were to corrupt the lather proportions, then my evaluations would favor soaps with better hydration tolerances, or wider hydration bands as @tclobaugh put it. I try to note how lathers change with the water-to-soap ratio and mention anything notable with respect to hydration tolerance.

For the most part, I really don't have sensitive skin and I am not sensitive to coconut oil. The only sensitivity that I think I've run into is fairly minor and from B&M Lavanille.

I figured that you didn't have a coconut oil sensitivity. We probably differ there.

Keep up the good work! Like I said before, I found your work to be a really insightful read.

Thanks! Your feedback has been insightful, too. I'm going to keep going with this. I shave everyday, so I evaluate an exact lather every day. Slowly but surely, I get to really know how a soap behaves with quantitative numbers. It's all reproducible! It's totally different from how it used to be.
 
Thanks, yah, I think either you or David mentioned this to me in the pass around thread. I really need to dig up my review to see what I wrote at the time. I received an older tub of the Stirling Spice from a member that sold me my Slim almost a year ago when I was starting. It's basically lost it's scent and looks a bit funky so I was never quite sure about it. I use it mainly for brush testing and, crazy as this sounds, face lathering to clean up after yard work and such. I realize that sounds like a horrible waste. What can I say, it was a free PIF basically.

I'll slot it back in to the rotation to try to dial in the lather for shaving.

If a soap is getting used than it's not wasteful. And Stirling is one of the more reasonably priced soaps, so no one is crying over you using it "off label". Also - a lot of soaps will have their scent fade over a long period of time, so that's not too abnormal.

In the end - Stirling may not be a good for for you. YMMV is very real in the soap world due to preferences, and variations in water hardness, brush type, technique, etc.
 
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