US automaker bailout poll

[Baloosh]

I think this is probably true in isolation, but I'm not sure if that's the wisest course right now in the current situation. We're on the edge of a huge recession, unemployment is high, and the credit market is crippled. Somebody needs to take a step back and figure out how a big 3 bankruptcy works into a much bigger picture.

It would go a long way towards straightening the currently unsustainable trend of the big 3 automakers. Those who survive it (if any) will better exponentially better positioned to deliver a market-competitive product that both a) sells and b) is profitable.

But make no mistake -- it's going to be tough, and it's going to hurt a LOT of people and a LOT of families. However, that's going to happen regardless of whether or not the big 3 gets $25 billion. The American car companies of old are history. *If* they can survive it will be a drastically different landscape of employee/employer relationships, vendor relationships, Unions, workers salaries, etc.

 

[AsylumGuido]

The auto industry isn't asking for a bailout. They are asking for a loan. Having GM, or any of the other big three go under would absolutely cripple our economy. Thousands of suppliers alone depend upon these manufacturers to stay afloat. It wouldn't be a trickle down effect if they went under, it would be a downpour.

 

[Baloosh]

The auto industry isn't asking for a bailout. They are asking for a loan. Having GM, or any of the other big three go under would absolutely cripple our economy. Thousands of suppliers alone depend upon these manufacturers to stay afloat. It wouldn't be a trickle down effect if they went under, it would be a downpour.

They're claiming they'll be forced to shutdown if they don't get the money. That's called a bailout.

If it were a request for more capital to expand business, introduce new technologies or research, etc... it would be called a loan.

Regardless of whether or not it has to be paid back at some point, the CEOs are claiming they absolutely require some influx of capital in order to stay open. By any logical definition, that's a bailout.

The "trickle down" opinion is not one held by everyone. If satellite companies have not already taken into account, planned for and adjusted to the possibility of losing a customer as big as these 3, then those satellite companies need to take a long, hard look at their Executive Management personnel as well.

 

[AsylumGuido]

maybe becuase the "domestic" automakers actually manufacture in mexico, while you have foriegn automakers manufacturing on US soil,

We have a GM plant here in Shreveport, Louisiana. My brother-in-law works there. There are also several other support plants here which manufacture parts. The closing of this plant would be disastrous to our local economy. We are not talking about corporate giants here. We are talking about the livelihood of millions of regular people.

 

[Baloosh]

We have a GM plant here in Shreveport, Louisiana. My brother-in-law works there. There are also several other support plants here which manufacture parts. The closing of this plant would be disastrous to our local economy. We are not talking about corporate giants here. We are talking about the livelihood of millions of regular people.

Hate to tell you this, but the majority of those people are already doomed, even if they big 3 gets this bailout. They simply cannot continue down their current path, regarding alternative fuel cars, agreements with labor/unions, etc... and remain a viable and competitive player. That much has been proven already.

No matter what happens, a lot of workers, both blue collar and white collar, are going to lose their jobs in the months ahead.

 

[frank85]

They need to restructure the way they do business...
In yesterday's press conference someone suggested they sell off all their corporate jets

I vote on Limited assistance with requirements for improvement in the areas of technology and fuel efficiency...

NO BONUSES

 

[Sue]

Let them BK just like the airlines have had to and then restructure. Then they either get their act together and emerge a leaner company or sink.

Being an airline family, I am sure I am biased. Paycuts and tightened benefits hurt, have had that myself and other members of my family.

Similar to auto worker loss of jobs, the airlines also have many related jobs, parts, food services, freight forwarders & fixed-base operators to name but only a few. I really don't want to pay 'again' in higher tax. I'm ok with an interest bearing loan.

This isn't the only industry affected by mismanagement, wasteful spending, inferior quality etc., etc..... It's not the average workers fault unless they knowingly contributed to poor quality. The government can't fix everything and shouldn't be expected to.

Sue

 

[AsylumGuido]

They're claiming they'll be forced to shutdown if they don't get the money. That's called a bailout.

If it were a request for more capital to expand business, introduce new technologies or research, etc... it would be called a loan.

Regardless of whether or not it has to be paid back at some point, the CEOs are claiming they absolutely require some influx of capital in order to stay open. By any logical definition, that's a bailout.

The "trickle down" opinion is not one held by everyone. If satellite companies have not already taken into account, planned for and adjusted to the possibility of losing a customer as big as these 3, then those satellite companies need to take a long, hard look at their Executive Management personnel as well.

Many companies, including many here in my city, are solely in business to manufacture parts for GM vehicles. The local plant just announced they will be shutting down production for the first two weeks of 2009. These suppliers were forced to do the same. Now what about all the service industry workers who provide any number of services to these out of work workers. They lose business as well.

Trickle down is not an opinion, it is a hard, real fact.

 

[ogopogo]

Bailout or a loan with conditions. First thing, get rid of all those monstrosities like the Hummer and Expedition.

 

[SRock]

I don't care about the CEO's but I do care about the workers. If government help can save jobs, please let them help. These CEO's can take care of themselves, the workers can't.

It's important to the American Economy that the big three survive. However, let the CEO's and in some cases CFO's flounder.

I do think the government should save the workers. What about making the workers the owners? Divide the company equally amongst all employees. Let the corporate types run the show but give the little guy power to vote and impact his business!

 

[AsylumGuido]

Bailout or a loan with conditions. First thing, get rid of all those monstrosities like the Hummer and Expedition.

I agree. That is what they build here in Shreveport. But, without the capital to completely retool operations the plant can't survive. The $700 billion support bill has already been passed. The auto industry isn't asking for an additional $25 billion, they are asking for a $25 billion dollar loan out of the already appropriated $700 billion which could then be used to shift production from the Hummers and such to a more economical alternative.

The general public simply doesn't have a full understanding of the issues involved. There are so many misconceptions out there. I also disagree with bailing anybody out, but I see no issue with loans to assist in change.

 

[AsylumGuido]

It's important to the American Economy that the big three survive. However, let the CEO's and in some cases CFO's flounder.

I do think the government should save the workers. What about making the workers the owners? Divide the company equally amongst all employees. Let the corporate types run the show but give the little guy power to vote and impact his business!

Dead on right with that post, Slagle!

 

[northpaw]

But, without the capital to completely retool operations the plant can't survive...
I also disagree with bailing anybody out, but I see no issue with loans to assist in change.

I keep hearing "retool" thrown around. Anybody know what exactly they have in mind?
Are these merely their stated good intentions or actual stipulations of the bailout?

 

[professorchaos]

Let 'em sink. A bailout prolongs the inevitable. What is the worst that can happen? Union guys get paid a wage similar to Toyota workers? Poor dears. With all the infrastructure required to make cars in place, new management could come in and breath new life into the American automobile industry.

 

[AsylumGuido]

I keep hearing "retool" thrown around. Anybody know what exactly they have in mind?
Are these merely their stated good intentions or actual stipulations of the bailout?

These plants are uniquely tooled to build specific vehicles. While in most ways any given auto plant is much like any other, much of the production is based on very specifically engineered machinery designed for specific purposes. I'm sure GM realizes that the Hummer isn't the best choice of vehicle for this plant to build in today's economy, but it will take a major overhaul for the production line to enable production of an entirely different type of vehicle. Changing the operation from a utility vehicle to a pickup truck is not as drastic as moving from a Hummer to a compact car.

 

[SCWilson]

My grandfather had a utility vehicle once. He said it was the best one ever. It could cary a good load, get you where you needed to go, was inexpensive to operate, and it was "Green" (not his word).




It was a mule.

 

[Jac]

Boo State Capitalism.

Yay Free Market!

If my hard earned (stolen) money goes to bail out an automobile manufacturer, I'll be expecting a car with my tax return.

 

[Baloosh]

Many companies, including many here in my city, are solely in business to manufacture parts for GM vehicles. The local plant just announced they will be shutting down production for the first two weeks of 2009. These suppliers were forced to do the same. Now what about all the service industry workers who provide any number of services to these out of work workers. They lose business as well.

Trickle down is not an opinion, it is a hard, real fact.

What you are calling trickle down can also be called the free market righting itself. If the ancillary companies cannot adjust and fill the market needs without the big 3 (there are other auto companies, even in the USA) then they too are destined for failure, no matter how much money is thrown at them. The suppliers will supply parts to the growth of the Toyota/Honda/etc. that is inevitable, should the big 3 shut down. Same with the service workers.

I agree. That is what they build here in Shreveport. But, without the capital to completely retool operations the plant can't survive. The $700 billion support bill has already been passed. The auto industry isn't asking for an additional $25 billion, they are asking for a $25 billion dollar loan out of the already appropriated $700 billion which could then be used to shift production from the Hummers and such to a more economical alternative.

The general public simply doesn't have a full understanding of the issues involved. There are so many misconceptions out there. I also disagree with bailing anybody out, but I see no issue with loans to assist in change.

They're actually asking for permission to use the $25B already given to them for something other than what it was originally approved for -- research and development into hybrid/alternative technologies. They want to take money from the future to prop up a dying (some say dead) business model.

As tough as it is to hear, that plant in Shreveport is one that needs to be shut down if it cannot be re-tooled without taxpayer bailouts. That factory is one of the reasons why the big 3 are where they are today.

These plants are uniquely tooled to build specific vehicles. While in most ways any given auto plant is much like any other, much of the production is based on very specifically engineered machinery designed for specific purposes. I'm sure GM realizes that the Hummer isn't the best choice of vehicle for this plant to build in today's economy, but it will take a major overhaul for the production line to enable production of an entirely different type of vehicle. Changing the operation from a utility vehicle to a pickup truck is not as drastic as moving from a Hummer to a compact car.

Then they need to get private investors to fund their re-tooling costs, not public assistance. If they cannot find such investors, that means nobody has faith in their business model or plan, and that says a LOT about their future as a viable corporation.

I understand completely what you're saying, and empathize 100% with you. However, what's being proposed is simply "throwing good money after bad," as one of my professors used to say.

 

[Ramaniac]

Leave the free market alone. Otherwise is socialism. No money to anybody.

 

[Rorschuck]

Is their image (e.g. image of the US automakers) that bad?

Short answer: yes.