THEHTGAM/PPF/PH0ENIX/D0UGLAS/H0DGES/FRANCES Thread

[play]

Thank you for posting this. I like threads involving various measurements of razors and blades.

Does anyone else go through such a process with another razor?

So many razors require blade alignment manually. Merkur 45, Fatip, some of cheap Chinese razors and most of Ikon razors are among them. Some razors align blade perfectly automatically every time; such razors are Wunderbar, 1938 Tech and Dorco PL602.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

. . . here's the blade exposure for the Rockwell 6S, Gillette Slim, and Gillette Aristocrat Junior . . . there's not much detail...but alignment is spot-on for all three razors. In each case, the blade snaps and locks into place...then you screw it closed.

One of the reasons I sold an ATT razor was for alignment.

Thanks for the picture, poikkeus, and your notes on the blade reveal asymmetry issue. It's a shame that there was such a blade alignment issue with the ATT razor you got. The ATT sounds like a really good razor. Do you think that the razor that you got was defective due to manufacturing or design?

It does appear in your photos that the blade reveal/exposure is even along the edges shown on one side of the razor heads, but are the blade reveals/exposures identical on both sides of the razor heads? Can blade reveal/exposure become biased by loading the razor at an angle or something? If not, then that is great for the Rockwell 6S, Gillette Slim, and Gillette Aristocrat Junior!

 

[Feather-man]

For razors of the two pin style and that do not self-align the blades, I place the blade on the top cap and squeeze both ends of the blade to make it buckle away from the top cap. This forces the blade cutouts tight against the pins of the top cap. While still squeezing I screw on the handle letting my fingers get pushed out of the way as the top cap is tightened. For me this most frequently results in a well aligned blade, assuming the pins have a precise fit with the bottom plate.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Thank you for posting this. I like threads involving various measurements of razors and blades.

So many razors require blade alignment manually. Merkur 45, Fatip, some of cheap Chinese razors and most of Ikon razors are among them. Some razors align blade perfectly automatically every time; such razors are Wunderbar, 1938 Tech and Dorco PL602.

Thanks, play. I like measurements, too. I'm going to deliver more. Thanks for verifying that blade alignment issues are out there for a lot of razors, while some razors perfectly align blades. Most razors don't perfectly align blades automatically, right? That's the impression that I got as a newbie researching wet shaving.

You listed the Dorco PL602 as one of the razors that automatically loads blades perfectly and I can personally attest to that, too. It's blade alignment is awesome, and because of that, I didn't have to take pictures of both sides of the razor. It's molded plastic symmetry and blade symmetry is making the analysis easier. I haven't done the analysis of blade parameters yet, since I'm finishing that up with the PAA DOC, but I'll get there for the Dorco PL602, along with other photos and measurements for that razor.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

For razors of the two pin style and that do not self-align the blades, I place the blade on the top cap and squeeze both ends of the blade to make it buckle away from the top cap. This forces the blade cutouts tight against the pins of the top cap. While still squeezing I screw on the handle letting my fingers get pushed out of the way as the top cap is tightened. For me this most frequently results in a well aligned blade, assuming the pins have a precise fit with the bottom plate.

Thanks for the tip, Feather-man. I tried that with the PAA DOC, but I couldn't do it, and I think that it's because there are skinny rectangular pins only about 3 mm high off of the top cap instead of longer thicker pins:

Maybe I'm not doing it right. I don't know. Please let me know what you think about that. At the very least, others might find your blade-alignment tip very useful with other razors.

 

[Feather-man]

Thanks for the tip, Feather-man. I tried that with the PAA DOC, but I couldn't do it, and I think that it's because there are skinny rectangular pins only about 3 mm high off of the top cap instead of longer thicker pins:

Maybe I'm not doing it right. I don't know. Please let me know what you think about that. At the very least, others might find your blade-alignment tip very useful with other razors.

Someone else at B&B mentioned the alignment trick. For this razor I mistakenly believed the pins were the round type, have not tried with this type of top cap.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Someone else at B&B mentioned the alignment trick. For this razor I mistakenly believed the pins were the round type, have not tried with this type of top cap.

That's cool, Feather-man. Thanks for the passing along the tip. It might help in the future. Also, I didn't mean to give you credit for someone else's trick, by the way. You weren't doing that. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[poikkeus]

Thanks for the picture, poikkeus, and your notes on the blade reveal asymmetry issue. It's a shame that there was such a blade alignment issue with the ATT razor you got. The ATT sounds like a really good razor. Do you think that the razor that you got was defective due to manufacturing or design?

It does appear in your photos that the blade reveal/exposure is even along the edges shown on one side of the razor heads, but are the blade reveals/exposures identical on both sides of the razor heads? Can blade reveal/exposure become biased by loading the razor at an angle or something? If not, then that is great for the Rockwell 6S, Gillette Slim, and Gillette Aristocrat Junior!

The ATT is a well-crafted razor, but the alignment problem stems from the design. A shaver just has to get into the habit of making sure the pins drop in every time. Most guys don't have any problem with it. Feather-man did an excellent job describing the ATT blade-loading process in post #15.

With every Gillette DE I've tried from 1930 to 1970, it's impossible to load the blade at an angle. The same thing applies to the Rockwell 6S. But you can get faultless alignment on your razor by doing this:

1. Disassemble the razor. All three parts should be in front of you.
2. Push the blade into the top of the cap so the two vertical bars are seated and locked in place. The blade should be slightly flexed.
3. The blade is seated. Now, close the razor, and screw the handle on.

Feel free to include a few pics of the razor with blade installed. I can't get enough pics of this gorgeous razor.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

The ATT is a well-crafted razor, but the alignment problem stems from the design. A shaver just has to get into the habit of making sure the pins drop in every time. . . .With every Gillette DE I've tried from 1930 to 1970, it's impossible to load the blade at an angle. The same thing applies to the Rockwell 6S.

The fact that your vintage 1930 to 1970 Gillette razors perfectly load blades makes me a bit disappointed now with knowing that my relatively new PAA DOC razor has wiggle room when loading a blade. Oh well.

It's interesting what you said about the ATT and the Rockwell 6S. Design matters and the Rockwell 6S has no blade loading issue. That's cool. I tried the tip that Feather-man passed along in post #15, but I couldn't get it to work with the shallow, skinny, rectangular posts on the PAA DOC's top cap.

If you didn't catch the photo album that I previously shared for the PAA DOC, here is the B&B URL:

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...Double-Open-Comb-(PAA-DOC)-Satin-Safety-Razor

The PAA DOC is a cool razor, and it has some really good attributes, even if I can't get a really close shave with it. Just let me know if there are any pictures that you'd like to see that I didn't post and I'll get back to you.

 

[Ad Astra]

Loving it. Minutia matters!


AA

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Loving it. Minutia matters!

I'm going to finish up with the PAA DOC with an updated photo analysis of the blade angle, exposure, guard span, etc. I should post about that in the near future.

 

[-EdG]

It was a limited release. They released it New Years Eve (2015) and it was limited to stock on hand, which disappeared quickly. Not sure if they'll do it annually, but you can get a heads up if you follow his social media or I believe he hosts a shaving group as well on Google.

 

[Basher]

I have the blonde gal as well. Had to go back to my PAA purchase history and figure it out, but you (and I) have the oriental variant as it turns out. (Doesn't state that on my tub) If fuzzy memory is correct, I believe the redhead was a gourmand variant.

Cannot offer any comparison feedback between the two though.

Thanks for the reply guys, especially for confirming that I have the Oriental version, EdG.

Looks like I need to pester Doug and get another run released, or just keep my eyes peeled for it. Doh!

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Back on July 8th, I wrote my first post ever on wet shaving. It was about the Phoenix Artisan Accoutrements (PAA) Double Open Comb (DOC) satin safety razor, my first DE safety razor, which I started using on June 12th. I made mass and length measurements and analyzed a close-up photograph down a blade edge to back out the blade parameters of blade angle, exposure, span, gap, and reveal:

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...-Reveal-of-PAA-(Phoenix)-DOC-Measured-w-Photo

On July 18th, I shared some good photos that I took of the PAA DOC:

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...Double-Open-Comb-(PAA-DOC)-Satin-Safety-Razor

Then, on July 22nd, I posted my photo analysis on how blade parameters change with the PAA DOC when a Wilkinson Sword blade is loaded all the way to one side or the other of the razor head for minimum or maximum blade reveal, given the "blade play" that is present with the PAA DOC:

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...nd-Maximum-Blade-Reveal-for-PAA-(Phoenix)-DOC

Today, I would like to share my updated, and probably final, photo analysis of the PAA DOC with symmetric blade reveal. The measurements made here supersede those made in my first photo analysis, since my analysis methods have improved significantly. I now take better focused (less fuzzy) pictures, and the pictures that I take are more accurately aligned down the blade edge. Further, my measurement method has greatly improved since considering both sides of the razor head. Previously, I only analyzed one side of the razor head, but due to slight geometric differences with the razor and slight blade reveal differences even when doing my best to symmetrically load a blade, dimensions are actually different on both sides of the razor head. I now realize the importance of analyzing both sides and averaging the results for the best representation of dimensions for a given razor-blade combination. Also, measuring both sides and averaging the results helps produce a reliable handle angle, which can seemingly differ from one side to the other just due to the natural imperfection in propping up the razor.

Here is my updated photo analysis of the PAA DOC with a Wilkinson Sword blade, such that the blade was loaded to the best of my ability by eye and manual adjustments to yield symmetric blade reveal. Close-up photos down the blade edges on both sides of the razor head were analyzed, and results were subsequently averaged and rounded:

http://imgur.com/a/9vl8W

	Average	Side 1	Side 2
Blade Angle (deg)	24.4	24.4	24.4
Handle Angle (deg)	36.1	36.0	36.2
Blade Exposure (mm)	-0.21	-0.22769	-0.20024
Guard Span (mm)	1.94	2.04923	1.82273
Cap Span (mm)	1.96	2.10769	1.80506
Blade Gap (mm)	0.47	0.51385	0.42403
Blade Reveal (mm)	1.28	1.29538	1.26914

As exhibited by the calculated blade reveals, I did manage to symmetrically load the blade about as well as can be expected by eyeballing it. The cap span difference between the two sides can mostly be explained, I think, by my selection of where the shave plane meets the top cap, since I did think that the shave plane met the top cap farther up on Side 1. However, when it comes to the difference in the guard span, there is no doubt that the vast majority of the difference is real. Side 1 definitely has a longer guard span than Side 2. The two sides are not equal. I've always noticed a difference, that one side was longer than the other, and now I know that the difference is about 0.23 mm, neglecting the small difference in blade reveal. The blade gaps between the two sides are also different, and this, too, appears to be real, not a result of measuring error. Blade gap does not really matter, though, with how a razor feels and performs, but it does reflect on the level of precision in the manufacturing of the razor.

I'm really happy with how blade angle was identically measured between two completely different pictures and analyses, and how little differences were measured for handle angle and blade exposure, all of which help corroborate the high fidelity of my photo analysis method.

The blade angle of 24.4 deg is pretty low compared to a nominal blade angle of 30 deg, and the shallow blade angle helps explain why the PAA DOC is a more mild razor, but at the same time, is not as efficient as it could have been, since shallow blade angles cut hair less effectively. The handle angle has now been confidently calculated as 36.1 deg, which is in the ballpark of handle angles that people usually associate with the PAA DOC, the handle angle being typically stated as more than 30 deg and closer to 35 deg or 40 deg.

Finally, the blade exposure of the PAA DOC is accurately represented as -0.21 mm, at least with a Wilkinson Sword blade, which has a precise 22.0 mm blade width, as best as I have measured and verified on the Internet. The very large negative blade exposure of -0.21 mm helps make the PAA DOC a very mild razor in that respect, but the large guard span of 1.94 mm makes the PAA DOC an aggressive razor is that respect, and, with a shallow blade angle of 24.4 deg, the combined effect is a razor that feels mild overall and possibly not as efficient as one would desire. This is my impression of the PAA DOC, even when loaded with a KAI or Feather blade, but my hair is seemingly tougher than normal. I have gotten what I consider some decent shaves with the PAA DOC, but a BBS shave is seemingly impossible with this razor for me, even when applying undesirable pressure in an ATG pass with buffing. I can't even get close to a decent shave with the PAA DOC unless I do an ATG pass with some pressure, which is poor technique.

I think that this post concludes my photo analysis of the PAA DOC. I hope that you have found my analysis to be educational, informative, and interesting. Keep an eye out for more analyses in the future. Next up is the Dorco PL602!

 

[BSAGuy]

Wow. Amazing detail.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Wow. Amazing detail.

Thanks, BSAGuy. I was aiming for enough detail without making the writing too long or complicated. I hope that I accomplished that goal. The table might scare off some, but I included it mainly for the record to justify some of the writing, which is what matters.

To me---and I hope that you agree---measurements of blade angle, exposure, span, etc., help us understand and communicate to others why razors feel and perform as they do. Optimal values of parameters certainly vary from guy to guy, but who knows what they are? Almost no one actually takes measurements and includes them in discussions for each guy to figure out what is best for him. Imagine if the values of blade angle, exposure, and guard span were available for all razors out there and you knew what values were personally good for you. That would dramatically change the razor acquisition process!

Now that I look at blade angle, exposure, span, etc., I understand why the PAA DOC feels and performs as it does and why a KAI blade works better with the razor for me. The blade width of the KAI blade is the largest that I've tried, so a KAI blade in the PAA DOC has made the least negative blade exposure and smallest guard span for any blade that I've tried, and coupled with the KAI blade's sharpness, the KAI blade feels and works the best to cut my tough hair by making the PAA DOC a little less mild, more aggressiveness. If this were a different razor, possibly one having neutral or positive blade exposure, the KAI blade might feel too aggressive. It would depend on the combination of values for blade angle, exposure, span, etc.

I might have just gone into too much detail. Uh oh.

 

[kingfisher]

Is this the only razor that has a negative blade exposure? I have absolutely no idea, but I have seen similar photos of vintage Gillette razors and they ALL have a positive blade exposure. Every single one of them. Which makes sense, because we are attempting to remove stubble, and the blade is the business end of the razor, right?

My interpretation of a negative blade exposure would be that you're not going to get a shave at all unless you add pressure, thus bringing your stubble in contact with the recessed blade. No wonder so many people say the DOC is too mild.

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Is this the only razor that has a negative blade exposure? I have absolutely no idea, but I have seen similar photos of vintage Gillette razors and they ALL have a positive blade exposure. Every single one of them. Which makes sense, because we are attempting to remove stubble, and the blade is the business end of the razor, right?

My interpretation of a negative blade exposure would be that you're not going to get a shave at all unless you add pressure, thus bringing your stubble in contact with the recessed blade. No wonder so many people say the DOC is too mild.

The PAA DOC is definitely not the only razor with negative blade exposure. The Merkur 33C (Classic), for example, has a negative blade exposure. Also, the Feather AS-D2 has a negative blade exposure and a large guard span. The large guard span, as with the PAA DOC, gives enough room for the skin to get in there and make contact with the blade edge that has a negative blade exposure. The interesting thing is that large negative blade exposure can be viewed as "mild" while large guard span can be viewed as "aggressive". It is their values and the ratio of these values that helps define the overall "feel" of the razor-blade combination. The exposure-span ratio for the PAA DOC is around -0.1, which should be considered "mild", I think, but this ratio doesn't tell the whole story since the large guard span makes you more likely to feel the blade and snag on skin. To reduce drag ATG above the lip with the PAA DOC, even with a very sharp blade, I've learned to increase the handle angle and kind of "ride the cap" with added pressure before dropping to a more normal handle angle to take care of the shortened stubble. I believe that the large guard span of the PAA DOC potentially allows more skin to bunch up in front of the blade edge.

You are right that added pressure might be needed to shave with a recessed blade, depending on whether the spans are large enough to accommodate for the negative blade exposure. From my limited experience, I think that added pressure can only get you so far. With the PAA DOC, added pressure helps get a closer shave, but I can add a lot of pressure and still not get BBS in some areas. The blade angle factors into efficiency, too. I don't know what the blade angle is of the Merkur 33C or Feather AS-D2, but the blade angle of the PAA DOC is 24.4 deg, which is quite shallow and makes the PAA DOC less efficient than it could have been, which some people might see as a function, not a bug. I have not yet experienced what it is like for a razor to "cut like butter" or what it is like to use no extra pressure and just use WTG and XTG passes to efficiently cut stubble. The best that I've been able to do is get decent shaves with XTG and ATG passes, including buffing and added pressure, and still end up with visible and touchable hair remaining, particularly on the chin.

 

[rockclimber]

Excellent write up! Keep going, I hope to see tons of razors reviewed like this!

 

[ShavingByTheNumbers]

Excellent write up! Keep going, I hope to see tons of razors reviewed like this!

Thanks, rockclimber! I will definitely keep going with photo analysis. (By the way, I really like your soap-making thread! Keep that up, too!) The Dorco PL602 is next, which is an inexpensive plastic razor and doesn't really compare to metal razors, in my opinion, but I'll post pictures and measurements and comment about my bad experience with it. Some guys like the razor because it works for them, so my measurements might come in handy. I'd love to see tons of razors reviewed with photo analysis, too, but not by me! I need help! It is my hope that others will get involved with analyzing the razors that they own, especially the classic and stainless steel razors. No one person can be expected to buy and analyze all of the razors out there, you know? It should be a team effort with more and more guys becoming more and more used to seeing measurements to the point of expecting them and comparing them between razors to figure out what works for them and for particular blades. In that process, we should all get away from blade gap, which is virtually useless, and focus on blade angle, blade exposure, guard span, etc. Since I need to move on from the PAA DOC and get a razor that's more suited for me, I've already ordered a classic to analyze and shave with . . . The EJ DE89! Actually, I ordered the EJ DE89 head on what is called the EJ Kelvin, specially made for Amazon and currently priced a little over $29, having the EJ DE89 head on a handle that is similar to the Merkur 34C handle. I figured that the EJ DE89 was a good step for my own experience and for documenting its dimensions to share with the wet shaving community since the EJ DE89 is a modern-day classic.