I'll take the subjects of using patests one topic at a time.
Honing up from bevel-set to finish on pastes is another subject.
The tactics involved in both disciplines borrow from one another but they also vary greatly.
Seems that the Dark Side has been mucking about on the world of Pastes.
So, I figured I'd just shine some light on the shadows.
Known fact - pastes work.
Known fact - pastes have been around since at least the mid 1800s. Crox came later though.
Known fact - men have been using pastes, Crox included, to happily/successfully finish or touch up razors for a long time. Known fact - not everyone likes using pastes for many reasons - some subjective, others objective.
As Craig pointed out, slurry on a stone is paste on a stone. There is a difference in a natural paste/slurry on a natural substrate (stone) as opposed to say - Crox on balsa.
But - in essence - they are in fact the same exact thing. The premise is the same, even if the material isn't.
So - if you're honing with slurry. You are honing with paste. Deal with it.
Me - I started out using/needing crox to build a woking edge. My off-the-stone edges weren't 'there' and they tugged.
Crox alleviated the tugging, by enhancing the sharp quotient.
But Crox is not, for me, the worlds best edge builder. But - it's cheap and it works. When starting out, dropping 300 on an Escher, 200 on a Jnat, or whatever - seemed a bit oppressive. A 5 buck bottle of Crox put me in the game, gave me a benchmark to beat, and so on. Sure - the edges weren't stupendously smooth like a baby's butt. But that was a lot better than the edge pulling whiskers out of my face by a long shot. It worked.
Me - I don't like Crox, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna say it doesn't work. I've met many men using Crox for decades and they love it - so it's my feeling that the part I don't like about Crox is probably a subjective one. Crox is not the only paste out there though.
My thoughts about pastes now, as opposed to long ago when I was still struggling with figuring stuff out.
I'd prefer to hone on a stone any day. I'd prefer that stone to be a natural one but I do like/own/use synthetic stones up to 8k.
To me - synth stones are just like synth pastes - a block form as opposed to powder, but still manmade.
I love my 1k C and Shapton 1.5k stones very much. Same for my Snow White and Fuji. In a purely objective sense, I see zero difference between finishing on pastes or a synth stone from an aesthetic point of view. It's all manmade goop.
The focus here is on finishing - so, finishing the edge on synth or natural...
I prefer natural hones - period.
Now - and this is an important fact that the anti-crox/paste Storm Troopers seem to miss completely.
And that is this. You just don't know who is going to like what. For all I or anyone else knows, there are going to be any number of people that like what we like or hate what we like. Just because I think stone a gives the best edge - that doesn't mean person b has to use stone a. In fact - they may hate stone a. Saying Crox is no good because I don't like using it is ridiculous. It's ok to not like it, it's not really ok to say it's no good since we know that others do like it and that they think it's good.
You also don't know who has what size budget to spend on stuff either. So, someone asking for budget-centric options might be well served with an inexpensive paste for final sharpening.
Bevels rounding, edges being destroyed, et.al. from pastes.
I do not see bevels rounding to an appreciable degree from using them on a linen hanger as a final finisher strep.
I've been through this in at least 2 other threads - sorry folks - it just does not happen.
Yes - you can round a bevel with an abrasive if you try to. I have done that when honing on them from bevel-set.
That doesn't mean 5 passes on a taught hanger is going to do that.
For what it's worth - honing on slurry (paste) on a stone will add convexity to a bevel but not to any degree where things become problematic. Saying pastes are damaging bevels when they're used as a finisher on a linen hanger is nonsense. While it can happen if you lean on the blade when the're a lot of slack in the webbing and do about hundred laps - the simple fact is that noone does that. It's comparable to saying cars are dangerous because people die in car accidents.
The bolded text above is key.
The old wives tale of damaging bevels from using paste on a hanging linen is bunk - while there is usually always going to be convexing of the bevel to some degree whenever you do just about anything to it - that conveying does not equate to damage, nor is it significantly different than what happens when using other mediums in other ways.
I tend to belive that stropping on leather adds to a slightly convex apex - but that measurement is so minuscule that it does not matter. This is not damage. You can call it damage but it's not damage in a conventional sense. As far as I'm concerned, this is best viewed as normal wear, just like the wear from shaving with that edge. Who says they damaged their razor with their face? No one.
Edge damage from pastes.
Well, you can damage an edge on a stone, or a strop. Can - does not mean will.
But - inherently, pastes do not destroy edges. Diamond paste leaves critically clean surgical type edges. Other pastes will usually show less of technically perfect edge though. Even so - they can 'look' markedly better than one off a stone.
Looks don't mean much though. Just sayin' - not seeing damage here. Toothy? Maybe sometimes, this can be ironed out with technique in most cases. Or using a finer abrasive afterwards. Or both.
Now - can you damage an edge on paste? Yes. Can does not mean will.
How? - first, you should be ignorant of how the paste is best used. This will guarantee honing/shaving failure. Next - use the wrong paste - buy some goop on Amazon that is sold for autobody workers... another guaranteed fail.
However - after becoming educated in the material, and it's application - things can start to look up.
But - take the best paste in the world and use it incorrectly - fail.
Once, I coated a poly strop with Crox - like it was a candy coated shell. No good. Bad edge. I blamed the Crox - there's proabably a post where I mention this here, maybe on another forum - don't remember but I made mention of the 'bad Crox' edge. That was years ago. I would not do that today.
Another time - I did about 50 laps on a heavily coated Croxed strop. No good, bad edge - was like a freakin' saw on my skin. Pink lather, sore face, etc. I complained about the Crox then too. Yet - I was doing 200 laps on diamond pastes and getting a pretty good result. Different abrasives, techniques, etc. I don't think that one should, in general, do a bizillion laps on pastes and expect a great return though.
I learned from my mistakes, and through the experiences of others; I know better now. Generally speaking - a light dusting of abrasive, taught strop, few passes. This works pretty well to produce a shaivng edge in most cases. Another thing is that some pastes work better for me after 5k than they do after 8k or 12k. that's another subject though.
Honeslty - I don't have Crox in the house now; we don't get along. I have better options on hand so I use them instead.
But - if I had was Crox, I'd make it work. And, I bet I could take an 8k edge and dial it up on the green stuff reasonably well for most people that haven't had their opinions swayed by the Dark Side.
Bees knees edge? Prob not for me but for someone else - it just might be so. For someone on a tight budget, possibly a great option. Do I prefer other options - duh, yeah. But not everyone is in the position of having the curse of choice and even if they do - that doesn't mean they'll like what I do.
Ive been honing for a good while now, I've been through many exploits and had many opinions - some of those opinions are still holding true today, and many have been superceded by ideas beased on better information. I have pastes and I used them sparingly - for me now, they're a fun, informative and eye opening detour.
Who knows - in 5 years I may feel differently about things and some of what I put down here will then be obsolete. I'll worrry about that when/if it happens. Until then, what I think is above. What I have yet to learn is ahead of me. While the stuck-in-the-mud crew wants to hold onto the regurgitated info they read somewhere as the only truth that can ever be, I try to deveop my interests, skill and opinions continually - as a result - me, my skills and knowlege continue to grow. .
Two quotes I live by (there are others, these two are usually on my mind pretty often though)...
Change is inevitable - it's the only constant thing in life.
Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.
Honing up from bevel-set to finish on pastes is another subject.
The tactics involved in both disciplines borrow from one another but they also vary greatly.
Seems that the Dark Side has been mucking about on the world of Pastes.
So, I figured I'd just shine some light on the shadows.
Known fact - pastes work.
Known fact - pastes have been around since at least the mid 1800s. Crox came later though.
Known fact - men have been using pastes, Crox included, to happily/successfully finish or touch up razors for a long time. Known fact - not everyone likes using pastes for many reasons - some subjective, others objective.
As Craig pointed out, slurry on a stone is paste on a stone. There is a difference in a natural paste/slurry on a natural substrate (stone) as opposed to say - Crox on balsa.
But - in essence - they are in fact the same exact thing. The premise is the same, even if the material isn't.
So - if you're honing with slurry. You are honing with paste. Deal with it.
Me - I started out using/needing crox to build a woking edge. My off-the-stone edges weren't 'there' and they tugged.
Crox alleviated the tugging, by enhancing the sharp quotient.
But Crox is not, for me, the worlds best edge builder. But - it's cheap and it works. When starting out, dropping 300 on an Escher, 200 on a Jnat, or whatever - seemed a bit oppressive. A 5 buck bottle of Crox put me in the game, gave me a benchmark to beat, and so on. Sure - the edges weren't stupendously smooth like a baby's butt. But that was a lot better than the edge pulling whiskers out of my face by a long shot. It worked.
Me - I don't like Crox, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna say it doesn't work. I've met many men using Crox for decades and they love it - so it's my feeling that the part I don't like about Crox is probably a subjective one. Crox is not the only paste out there though.
My thoughts about pastes now, as opposed to long ago when I was still struggling with figuring stuff out.
I'd prefer to hone on a stone any day. I'd prefer that stone to be a natural one but I do like/own/use synthetic stones up to 8k.
To me - synth stones are just like synth pastes - a block form as opposed to powder, but still manmade.
I love my 1k C and Shapton 1.5k stones very much. Same for my Snow White and Fuji. In a purely objective sense, I see zero difference between finishing on pastes or a synth stone from an aesthetic point of view. It's all manmade goop.
The focus here is on finishing - so, finishing the edge on synth or natural...
I prefer natural hones - period.
Now - and this is an important fact that the anti-crox/paste Storm Troopers seem to miss completely.
And that is this. You just don't know who is going to like what. For all I or anyone else knows, there are going to be any number of people that like what we like or hate what we like. Just because I think stone a gives the best edge - that doesn't mean person b has to use stone a. In fact - they may hate stone a. Saying Crox is no good because I don't like using it is ridiculous. It's ok to not like it, it's not really ok to say it's no good since we know that others do like it and that they think it's good.
You also don't know who has what size budget to spend on stuff either. So, someone asking for budget-centric options might be well served with an inexpensive paste for final sharpening.
Bevels rounding, edges being destroyed, et.al. from pastes.
I do not see bevels rounding to an appreciable degree from using them on a linen hanger as a final finisher strep.
I've been through this in at least 2 other threads - sorry folks - it just does not happen.
Yes - you can round a bevel with an abrasive if you try to. I have done that when honing on them from bevel-set.
That doesn't mean 5 passes on a taught hanger is going to do that.
For what it's worth - honing on slurry (paste) on a stone will add convexity to a bevel but not to any degree where things become problematic. Saying pastes are damaging bevels when they're used as a finisher on a linen hanger is nonsense. While it can happen if you lean on the blade when the're a lot of slack in the webbing and do about hundred laps - the simple fact is that noone does that. It's comparable to saying cars are dangerous because people die in car accidents.
The bolded text above is key.
The old wives tale of damaging bevels from using paste on a hanging linen is bunk - while there is usually always going to be convexing of the bevel to some degree whenever you do just about anything to it - that conveying does not equate to damage, nor is it significantly different than what happens when using other mediums in other ways.
I tend to belive that stropping on leather adds to a slightly convex apex - but that measurement is so minuscule that it does not matter. This is not damage. You can call it damage but it's not damage in a conventional sense. As far as I'm concerned, this is best viewed as normal wear, just like the wear from shaving with that edge. Who says they damaged their razor with their face? No one.
Edge damage from pastes.
Well, you can damage an edge on a stone, or a strop. Can - does not mean will.
But - inherently, pastes do not destroy edges. Diamond paste leaves critically clean surgical type edges. Other pastes will usually show less of technically perfect edge though. Even so - they can 'look' markedly better than one off a stone.
Looks don't mean much though. Just sayin' - not seeing damage here. Toothy? Maybe sometimes, this can be ironed out with technique in most cases. Or using a finer abrasive afterwards. Or both.
Now - can you damage an edge on paste? Yes. Can does not mean will.
How? - first, you should be ignorant of how the paste is best used. This will guarantee honing/shaving failure. Next - use the wrong paste - buy some goop on Amazon that is sold for autobody workers... another guaranteed fail.
However - after becoming educated in the material, and it's application - things can start to look up.
But - take the best paste in the world and use it incorrectly - fail.
Once, I coated a poly strop with Crox - like it was a candy coated shell. No good. Bad edge. I blamed the Crox - there's proabably a post where I mention this here, maybe on another forum - don't remember but I made mention of the 'bad Crox' edge. That was years ago. I would not do that today.
Another time - I did about 50 laps on a heavily coated Croxed strop. No good, bad edge - was like a freakin' saw on my skin. Pink lather, sore face, etc. I complained about the Crox then too. Yet - I was doing 200 laps on diamond pastes and getting a pretty good result. Different abrasives, techniques, etc. I don't think that one should, in general, do a bizillion laps on pastes and expect a great return though.
I learned from my mistakes, and through the experiences of others; I know better now. Generally speaking - a light dusting of abrasive, taught strop, few passes. This works pretty well to produce a shaivng edge in most cases. Another thing is that some pastes work better for me after 5k than they do after 8k or 12k. that's another subject though.
Honeslty - I don't have Crox in the house now; we don't get along. I have better options on hand so I use them instead.
But - if I had was Crox, I'd make it work. And, I bet I could take an 8k edge and dial it up on the green stuff reasonably well for most people that haven't had their opinions swayed by the Dark Side.
Bees knees edge? Prob not for me but for someone else - it just might be so. For someone on a tight budget, possibly a great option. Do I prefer other options - duh, yeah. But not everyone is in the position of having the curse of choice and even if they do - that doesn't mean they'll like what I do.
Ive been honing for a good while now, I've been through many exploits and had many opinions - some of those opinions are still holding true today, and many have been superceded by ideas beased on better information. I have pastes and I used them sparingly - for me now, they're a fun, informative and eye opening detour.
Who knows - in 5 years I may feel differently about things and some of what I put down here will then be obsolete. I'll worrry about that when/if it happens. Until then, what I think is above. What I have yet to learn is ahead of me. While the stuck-in-the-mud crew wants to hold onto the regurgitated info they read somewhere as the only truth that can ever be, I try to deveop my interests, skill and opinions continually - as a result - me, my skills and knowlege continue to grow. .
Two quotes I live by (there are others, these two are usually on my mind pretty often though)...
Change is inevitable - it's the only constant thing in life.
Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.
