Stone between 10k & Nats?

[captaincaed]

I have a pretty good setup so far (I think). Doing bevel set on gesshin 2k, then gesshin 4k, then ohishi 10k (seems nearly equal to naniwa 8k, slightly better polish). Then jumping to Nats.

So far I'm getting to hht3 consistently. Easy tree topping, (still some tugging), but not much above. I'm fairly sure the Nats are of good quality, so I'm looking at perhaps not setting up the next to last step. Microscope is telling me I'm getting to the apex (after my initial learning curve where I definitely wasn't).

Realize it could also be technique based, also working on lighter pressure finishing. But I'm open to the idea I'm not yet on point. Maybe a slightly softer honing fluid like glycerine or oil while I learn the ropes?

Anyway, thanks for any tips! Naniwa SS 12k is on my mind, but warping also concerns me. Good luck jumping up to Nats directly from snow white 8k? Maybe other?

 

[JPO]

I usually jump from 6 or 8k to my janat. I have a Naniwa 12, which I have not used for years.
In my opinion it works better as a pure finisher.
I wonder how many that recommend this stone still use it, if they have other options..

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

If you already have a quality jnat, I’m a big fan of a koma nagura. I don’t have it (yet), but an alternative for maybe less money, would be a botan-tenjyo-mejiro nagura set.

 

[captaincaed]

I do have one of those speckled komas. I didn't know any better at the time but read later they may not be the best?

In any case, was hoping to stick with synthetics for consistency up to the last step until I really know what I'm doing.

 

[Christian1212]

10k is the perfect jump off spot! Might be good to shave off the 10k and then see if your nat is improving the edge or not.

 

[captaincaed]

Cheers! The 10k was recommended by one local shop as their own finisher for customers razors. The other local honemeister lines the naniwa 12k as a final finisher.

I definitely can shave off the 10k (after either CrOx or plain leather stropping). Some of the natural provide improvement (one or two cotis in particular), some like the ToS seem to bring it down a hair.

Still chasing hht5. Feel like I'm making some part of the process more difficult than it needs to be.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

You should be able to make the jump easily from a 10K. I make the jump from a Snow White, mine leaves a near mirror finish and often from a vintage King 6k, (not the same as the new 6K King).

I would first try the jump with just diamond slurry 4-600, to see how aggressive and how your stone will polish by itself.

I like the Tsushima as a base nagura it is fast, (quickly removes any remaining stria) leaves a nice hazy, pebbly finish and straight edge. You can go straight to a Tomo or Diamond slurry to finish.

With Jnats do not be afraid to use a bit of pressure, try stropping on linen, I use firehose, between stones and nagura. Finish each nagura with light pressure and thin slurry.

The Snow White, retired my 12k years ago, the Snow White does not load up like the 12k does. If you use a 12k Super Stone you should lap the stone flat and clean for your final laps, black swarf can damage the edge. The finish from the 10 and 12 K should be very close and not be an issue jumping to the Jnat.

 

[Gamma]

More often than not, a lack of sharpness is from a lack of refinement in the early work, not the finish.
The bevel is the edge, most sharpness is developed long before the so-called 8k stage.
Polish on a bevel means nothing - pretty bevels don't equal great edges or excellent apex refinement.

I usually direct new users to learn how to hone bevels that can deliver a shave. Then refine.
That always solves the lack of sharpness thing.

 

[captaincaed]

@Gamma you’re recommending aiming for a shaving bevel off a 1-2k if I read that right? Sounds like a logical test.

 

[captaincaed]

I have two potential synthetic bevel setters, a 2k that’s designed for maximum toothy kitchen edges, and a king 1k. From what I’ve read they may not be great choices?

Hearing this step may be easier with a particular tool, seems like the Shapton pro 1.5k and choosers 1k are solid options?

 

[captaincaed]

Working up a different razor, on of great grandpa's. Here's the 400 grit bevel I'm starting with. Tree-tops and shaves after light pant/palm stropping. Not overly comfortable, but hey.

 

[Gamma]

@Gamma you’re recommending aiming for a shaving bevel off a 1-2k if I read that right?

When people email me with concerns about their edges not being sharp enough, it's usually from poorly executed ground work, bad lather, or poor shaving technique - or all 3. I don't put stock in HHT, tree topping, etc. I judge by shave quality.

What I always recommend to everyone, is starting at the beginning, proofing each stage.
A bevel set edge should manage a shave.
Each step forward should improve it.

The only test I subscribe to is the shave test. Bevel pix are nice but we don't shave with pix.

Gesshin stones would not be my first choice for honing razors. The 4000 is pretty toothy.
Honing to 10k and then using Crox is not shaving off the 10k, it's shaving off 30k.
If your edge was done right prior to the Crox, that edge should not be lacking in sharpness at all.
That's assuming the crox in question is a high quality .5 µm variety.

I prefer to jump to Jnats from 1.5k Shap Pro, maybe the Shap Pro 5k or Glass 6k.

Coticules - I usually go to right after bevel set with a dulicot progression.

Finishing razors on Coticules can take a while to figure out sometimes.

I have never had a TOS that I could consider to be a finisher for razors; purely midrange or used for cutlery.

 

[captaincaed]

Cheers, thanks for taking the time to help raise us new folks up, and for the reminder to focus on the basics.
I still find the images helpful, just the same idea as checking with a loupe. Another data point, but not the end all be all. Helps triangulate where I'm at.

Thanks also for the dead reckoning for the finisher options.

Off to go cut some wood in the shop, but I have a bevel that is shaving to return to. It's cleaning up stubble from my 3pm shave yesterday, so ... seems to shave.

 

[gbupp]

It probably depends on the Nats. As others have said, if you are jumping to a Coticule than another finisher I think your progression is fine if not overkill.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I don't consider a razor finisher good unless it can easily finish a razor off a DMT 8000 (3 micron... MUCH coarser than a 10k JIS synth). In my opinion, there is no finisher out there that's worth using with a razor that can't easily finish off a 10k JIS.

If you're not happy with the finish off a 10k JIS to nat... either you just need some more trial and error to figure it out, the nat is bad, or you're not really getting the 10k finish (maybe need better/more intermediate honing between beveling and the 10k).

Or maybe your stropping needs work.


All that said, I have no experience with the exact stones you're using. Except the king 1k... which I'd agree is a mediocre to poor razor hone. I couldn't even guess how much additional work a razor needs off a King 1k vs off my DMT 1200... Several times as much, anyway.

A Tam should degrade a 10k finish... They're not 10k. They seem to finish equivalent to a ballpark 4-6k JIS in my experience.

Coti's are a coinflip. Most will be less sharp (in some cases significantly so) but typically more comfy than a 10k synth; but the finest ones will keen up a 10k finish a touch.

What other nats are we talking?

And if you're comparing your nat finishes to a Chromox/paste finish, that could be all it is. Stone finishes don't feel like a paste finish and often guys switching/trying stone finishes for the first time believe they're inferior because they feel different and go right back to pastes.

I'll echo not to pay attention to HHT. HHT number is absolutely meaningless in a vacuum. It's not possible to standardize it enough to make it a meaningful test outside of one person with a single individuals hair, collected at a similar point in time, from the exact same part of their head, held at exactly the same point, at the exact same humidity, moved against the edge in the exact same pattern, at the exact same spot on the edge, etc, etc, etc.
Case in point... No edge in existence will pass my most used "HHT" to any of the silly numbers/descriptors people gave it without stropping first. I use it purely to test fully ready to shave edges. I know other guys who use it to tell when they can move from one stone to the next. Definitely not doing the same test there.

 

[gbupp]

I don't consider a razor finisher good unless it can easily finish a razor off a DMT 8000 (3 micron... MUCH coarser than a 10k JIS synth). In my opinion, there is no finisher out there that's worth using with a razor that can't easily finish off a 10k JIS.

If you're not happy with the finish off a 10k JIS to nat... either you just need some more trial and error to figure it out, the nat is bad, or you're not really getting the 10k finish (maybe need better/more intermediate honing between beveling and the 10k).

Or maybe your stropping needs work.


All that said, I have no experience with the exact stones you're using. Except the king 1k... which I'd agree is a mediocre to poor razor hone. I couldn't even guess how much additional work a razor needs off a King 1k vs off my DMT 1200... Several times as much, anyway.

A Tam should degrade a 10k finish... They're not 10k. They seem to finish equivalent to a ballpark 4-6k JIS in my experience.

Coti's are a coinflip. Most will be less sharp (in some cases significantly so) but typically more comfy than a 10k synth; but the finest ones will keen up a 10k finish a touch.

What other nats are we talking?

And if you're comparing your nat finishes to a Chromox/paste finish, that could be all it is. Stone finishes don't feel like a paste finish and often guys switching/trying stone finishes for the first time believe they're inferior because they feel different and go right back to pastes.

I'll echo not to pay attention to HHT. HHT number is absolutely meaningless in a vacuum. It's not possible to standardize it enough to make it a meaningful test outside of one person with a single individuals hair, collected at a similar point in time, from the exact same part of their head, held at exactly the same point, at the exact same humidity, moved against the edge in the exact same pattern, at the exact same spot on the edge, etc, etc, etc.
Case in point... No edge in existence will pass my most used "HHT" to any of the silly numbers/descriptors people gave it without stropping first. I use it purely to test fully ready to shave edges. I know other guys who use it to tell when they can move from one stone to the next. Definitely not doing the same test there.

King 1k I think gets a bad rap, it can easily do a pre-aggressive coticule step just fine as your bevel set. However, keeping the 1k King extremely flat is key to it being "not bad". There are certainly better stones out there now adays though.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

A Tam should degrade a 10k finish... They're not 10k. They seem to finish equivalent to a ballpark 4-6k JIS in my experience.

Some of them seem to be finer. The one I have will improve my Fuji 8k edge.

 

[SliceOfLife]

The only ones I've got that fine were the black... kinda woa ones. White tams I've not had any that fine... but small sample size... maybe 8-10.

 

[captaincaed]

I don't consider a razor finisher good unless it can easily finish a razor off a DMT 8000 (3 micron... MUCH coarser than a 10k JIS synth). In my opinion, there is no finisher out there that's worth using with a razor that can't easily finish off a 10k JIS.

If you're not happy with the finish off a 10k JIS to nat... either you just need some more trial and error to figure it out, the nat is bad, or you're not really getting the 10k finish (maybe need better/more intermediate honing between beveling and the 10k).

Or maybe your stropping needs work.


All that said, I have no experience with the exact stones you're using. Except the king 1k... which I'd agree is a mediocre to poor razor hone. I couldn't even guess how much additional work a razor needs off a King 1k vs off my DMT 1200... Several times as much, anyway.

A Tam should degrade a 10k finish... They're not 10k. They seem to finish equivalent to a ballpark 4-6k JIS in my experience.

Coti's are a coinflip. Most will be less sharp (in some cases significantly so) but typically more comfy than a 10k synth; but the finest ones will keen up a 10k finish a touch.

What other nats are we talking?

And if you're comparing your nat finishes to a Chromox/paste finish, that could be all it is. Stone finishes don't feel like a paste finish and often guys switching/trying stone finishes for the first time believe they're inferior because they feel different and go right back to pastes.

I'll echo not to pay attention to HHT. HHT number is absolutely meaningless in a vacuum. It's not possible to standardize it enough to make it a meaningful test outside of one person with a single individuals hair, collected at a similar point in time, from the exact same part of their head, held at exactly the same point, at the exact same humidity, moved against the edge in the exact same pattern, at the exact same spot on the edge, etc, etc, etc.
Case in point... No edge in existence will pass my most used "HHT" to any of the silly numbers/descriptors people gave it without stropping first. I use it purely to test fully ready to shave edges. I know other guys who use it to tell when they can move from one stone to the next. Definitely not doing the same test there.

Hey thanks for taking an interest. Sorry this reply is so late, I cannot seem to get notifications like I want.

Over the past 7 years, I’ve heavily favored stones that increase bite, since I’m almost exclusively sharpening for kitchen tasks - razors are a paradigm shift. I recently passed about 20 stones on to make some room for a small set to set up better for razors.

I cast about for a bevel setter, would up with a Shapton pro 1.5, which seems to get less ’sharp’ than the king 1k, according to my knife paradigm. But I also know it’s much harder, and ought to set a cleaner bevel. I have a naniwa hayabusa 4k arriving tonight, and I’m still searching for a better 8k, either a used snow white or naniwa fuji. I have the Ohishi 10k, which no one seems to use, so I’m not sure how much to ‘trust‘ it. I have a naniwa professional 5k, and the ohishi seems to degrade the polish from the 5k somewhat, although I have no clue if/how much that matters. The 5k is pretty special.

So, ideally, progression should be shapton 1.5k, hayabusa 4k, naniwa pro 5k, then one of those two 8k, once one turns up. That way I’ll get away from the Kings and Gesshins - all toothy, and a bit on the soft side.

I’m trying to focus on a hard, clean apex. So, trying to chase the burr as much as I can between stones, using plain cotton strop, plain split leather at grits 5k and below. If I feel like the apex may be burr-tastic or flimsy, will joint the edge and then do alternating, light, edge leading strokes until the edge retains as much sharpness as I can manage. Above 5k, stropping mostly on plain smooth leather.

I had used chromox on denim since it was recommended in the iwasaki guide, for chasing the last bit of burr. Only 2-3 light pulls on each side, weight of the razor.

I’m sticking with 1-2 razors to avoid adding too many variables. One full hollow, one more on the wedge end of the spectrum, unsure of the exact grind.

Naturals I’m trying are a couple cotis, a couple of jnats. I have the 4-nagura set, 2 tomo, but I’m mostly staying away from that for now. Enough variables there I think it pays to wait. If I try the Jnats, I’m trying the Alex Gilmore method, but I’m not sure mine are terribly fast or special, so they really can’t finish after a bevel set. Also have a mini thuri and a black shadow, so been messing with those as well.

Anyway, there’s the rambling setup. Back to practicing.

 

[captaincaed]

Well that was eye opening.
The shapton set the bevel nicely, didn’t feel very sharp, did shave hair. The transition to the Hayabusa was a surprise - it’s so fine for the grit rating, it took ages. I wondered if I was nuts, did 10 strokes on the gesshin 4k, my old standard, and all the 1.5k scratches were demolished. I went back to the hayabusa, and it still took ages to remove the gesshin 4k scratches, probably 15-20” working steadily with slurry. So they’re very different families of stones, totally different feedback.

Hopped up to the naniwa pro 5k, and it was whittling hairs. Felt very sharp for the grit. Hopped up to the ohishi 10k, and the edge felt a bit duller. The surface of the stone also feels grittier to the touch. Went back to the naniwa 5k, and took longer than I expected to get the “I’m ready” feedback I was looking for. But, it was back to just as sharp as it felt earlier. Don’t think it’s a coincidence.

Tools can make a difference. Not saying I’m a better honer, but dang that was a stark contrast. Lots to think about.