Do we overemphasise stones? Paste vs stoned edge?

[Nik]

This might end up a bit long and rambling. I am hoping to be corrected on anything that I am wrong on, please chime in. As far as I can see, traditionally barbers and home shavers would have had one hone, a coticule, Thuringian, barbers hone or similar to refresh and with much time do more. A ding or chip would be taken to a cutler to be honed out, then it would be refinished on their own or their barber’s hone if the cutler didn’t hit the mark, very likely. I have very rarely seen vintage strops without some sort of ‘paste’ on the fabric side, be it chalk, lead….. somewhere in my reading, I’ve come across mention of chasing a paste edge, taking the razor to the stone when the apex becomes too rounded, but only honing away enough to remove 80-90% of the rounding. The idea being to never touch the apex with the stone, because the last thing one would want to do is have such a coarse apex…

nowadays we’re honing with 30,000 grit stones and it seems to be a point of pride to only use bare linen and leather…. I know many use diamond pastes etc, but I know nothing about it. I’ve used chromium oxide on leather or dovo black in the past, but I found it cheating, I want my straight coticule edges, there is something romantic or charming about the stone to me. I’ve just picked up a cheap strop to turn Green, to play with myself.

Not sure I’m asking a real question, just curious on other’s thoughts really, or just whiskey rambling.

 

[MG31]

I’ve never stropped with paste; I’ve always felt touching up on a stone was more “pure”. However, as of recently, I’ve been seeing a lot of members favoring a pasted edge. It’s got my curiosity, so I am now considering trying it out.

Looking forward to seeing what everyone’s feedback is!

 

[SliceOfLife]

Home shavers often used Barbers synth hones... which were mostly... quite bad. (Or they took razors in for sharpening... so anything that let a razor go longer between sharpening IE paste was useful) The Carborundum line of razor hones in particular span about 2000 to 5000 grit or so, in my opinion. Even the finest would be a rough shave. If I was using one of the 95%+ of barber synthetics that were marketed a century ago... I'd absolutely be using pastes. With a coticule or Thuri? Nope.

Stones like Frictionites, Panama, etc see spikes in price/consistently premium valuations because they are consistently fine enough that they can be decent shavers. Meanwhile lots of 10-20 random barber hones rot on eBay with $30-50 BIN's... because the overwhelming majority are junk.


And no, the majority of vintage strops aren't pasted. I've bought 50+ vintage strops and maybe 6 or 7 were pasted. All but 2 of those looked like it was recent paste... not vintage. Chalk was more common (10+), but that's not an abrasive and if I remember right was a recommendation in some barbers manual to keep the strop grippy or flexible or something (I think it worked in between the fibers and kind of spaced them/frayed them very minutely to make the strop more aggressive).


Pastes on a "flat" surface like balsa are a little distinct to stone edges but not nearly to the extent that hanging strop abrasive stropped edges are. In my first year or so, I quickly moved away from Chromox-on-linen edges because I didn't like the feel when side by side with a stone edge. Had I never felt a stone edge? Yeah Chromox would be fine. Now that there's 0.0000000001 micron or whatever diamonds on balsa... the edges are a lot closer to what I get off stones... but I still tend to prefer a stone edge... though I can definitely see why someone may like a paste edge as well or better. Whereas, If someone likes Chromox on hanging linen vs a stone edge... I kind of suspect they aren't a great honer or dont have a good hone.


If you like your chromox edges but something just feels off about them, give the "Method" finishing stage a try (0.1 micron diamond on lightly sanded/leveled balsa backed with acrylic if memory serves. @Slash McCoy can confirm/correct.) It is the ease/convenience of paste but gets a much closer to "stone" feel out of a razor.

 

[Christian1212]

I agree with sliceoflife

I think if you are in straight razor shaving to save money then paste is a great option. Could buy a lapping plate, 2 synthetic stones, then paste and strop and be good to go. Although I think going to DE shaving would be the best money wise to reduce learning curves and buying random stuff.

I think most people straight razor shaving today though are in it for hobby fun + chasing the best shave possible. I find those people going to the best stone they can find(although some do with paste/film as well).

 

[captaincaed]

Do folks who prefer stones shave straight from the stone? Bare leather/palm between stone and shave? Does linen or split leather enter at some point in the honing process to keep the burr managed?

 

[Herrenberg]

Do folks who prefer stones shave straight from the stone? Bare leather/palm between stone and shave? Does linen or split leather enter at some point in the honing process to keep the burr managed?

I have shaved straight from the stone exactly one time, when I forgot to strop. I won't be repeating that experience, I hope. Performance and comfort were both diminished.

My usual regimen is 10-20 laps on suede (just because it came with the strop and I hate to just ignore it), 50-60 laps on leather before the shave, and 15-20 laps on linen after the shave.

 

[lloydw]

I often strop after low grit stones - maybe 2 or 4k - I have a thicker shell strop for this. Then move on and only strop after finishing stone

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Not really sure what you are asking.

Years ago, I experimented with paste exhaustively and paste substrates for years.

You can get a shave-able edge from most 8 or 12k stones and Chrome Oxide on a hanging strop. Much keener edges with Diamonds and CBN. Here substrate really matters.

But once you get past .50um it is more about what your skin can handle. After years of testing, no paste can equal a good Ark or Jnat shaving edge for keenness and comfort for me, my original paste stropping goal.

The trick for paste, is stropping. For most new honers until you have mastered stropping, a smoking pasted edge will be elusive.

Stropping, on linen and leather is way, way under rated. Stropping on linen especially and leather can improve any edge off a stone and a must for maintenance. Stropping on linen and leather straightens and polishes the edge.

For most, stones are easier, quicker and offer more variety in edges than paste. New honers almost always focus on keenness, but, sharp is easy, Keen and Comfort is the trick and a way different animal.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Do folks who prefer stones shave straight from the stone? Bare leather/palm between stone and shave? Does linen or split leather enter at some point in the honing process to keep the burr managed?

You have to strop on leather after honing. It's torture otherwise. I do linen/leather, but you can do just leather if you really want.

I never strop between stones, but I doubt doing so would hurt anything.

 

[Wid]

Years ago I was using a .25 diamond spray on a SRD paddle strop with felt after a Naniwa SS 12K. As I recall it was a nice shave, very keen.

When I went to a La Veinette and an Arkansas edge I pretty much give up on the diamond. It's been years since I've tried any pastes at all but they can work and work well.

I always go with linen/leather after a stone.

 

[Chandu]

One thing to consider plain leather or linen can have abrasive in the form of slicates or other environmental things embedded so there is that to consider.

On thing to think about too is that a large grit will embed in a softer material this limiting it's effective size. Does anyone strop with coti dust on leather or canvas?

In my carving tool stropping I have learned that 400 or 600 grit SiC on leather cuts much finer than would be expected because it embeds in the leather of course it can't hurt that it's somewhat friable too.. But even fresh 400 or 600 is much finer on leather than a soft Arkansas and quickly brings up a near mirror edge.

 

[Frank Shaves]

My best guess is that many of those folks who used paste on leather would be amazed with the edges that many of us produce using diamond paste on balsa, Arks, Coticules and JNATs.

When I started, I tried diamond paste on balsa and bought a Naniwa 12k. I just enjoy rubbing steel on stones. I do not consider myself a rock hound, but I have also enjoyed trying different natural stones.

I would just try different things to see what you like.

If your goal is to minimize cost, buy yourself two Union Spike razors on eBay for $20 a piece, clean them up with wet/dry sandpaper, send them to Alfredo to be honed and maintain the edges with diamond paste on balsa. Over the course of a lifetime, you will save money.

 

[captaincaed]

Thanks all. Sometimes I read about a “fresh off the stones” edge. The knife world means that literally, but I’m learning there’s a silent “and bare leather at a minimum” that’s simply unpronounced in razor land.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Pastes can be very underwhelming, when used in the same tired old way.

A handful of us here pursued the dragon, and caught that rascal, finally, when it all came together. A pasted balsa edge can be extremely sharp, while still shaving comfortably. More comfortably by far, than a 12k Naniwa or a 1µ 3M 261x lapping film edge. A lot of people think they have tried pastes but they did not actually try, or try the right way. If you do it randomly, you get random results. Haphazard methods, haphazard results. Freestyle technique, freestyle results.

First, understand that the balsa must be properly prepared, or it simply will not deliver peak performance. Slap dash balsa prep = meh results. Second, it is a progression of three stages, not a single stage. Third, stopping at .5µ or .25µ will increase sharpness, but only at the expense of comfort. It is a sour spot where it is difficult to get a smooth and comfortable shave, and going over the hump, to .1µ diamond makes it feel great. Third, no, you can't get optimum results going straight from 12k or 1µ film to .1µ diamond paste on balsa. It won't work. 4th, the properly prepared balsa progression WILL NOT MAKE YOUR RAZOR SHARP. There are two things that it will do. One is to make your sharp razor a lot sharper and probably shave more comfortably, and the other is to maintain your very very sharp razor's edge indefinitely, without returning to stone or film. 5th, the approach that has been found to work best is very light pressure, lots of laps. If you are used to doing 6 to 10 laps on linen pasted with CrOx, you are going to have a tremendous mental block to overcome.

I am not gonna write a book here, nor stand still and be hammered with 150 questions that have already been answered. There is a very long thread that should be regarded as required reading, if you hope to make the balsa work for you. All questions on this have been asked and answered. The technique has evolved, and so you have to read all the way to the end. Some things do not change, and have not been mentioned in years, and so you have to start at the beginning, not just skim the last 10 pages. The system WORKS, when you follow it exactly. When you rely upon your own understanding and judgement, you will not get the results that we get. You might get good results. You probably won't get spectacular results and you will wonder how you got talked into buying $100 worth of balsa, acrylic, and paste, for not much improvement at all. Do it with zero substitutions and zero omissions or additions, and you will amaze yourself.

That's not to say that you will like it. Some guys just like messing about with rocks. That's okay, and I get that. Some guys don't like an edge sharp enough to cut skin if they get a little careless. Okay, cool. Lots of guys start as newbies with "The Method", and once they master it, they move on to different honing styles. That's fine. You might give it a try, and even after getting great results, want to move on to more challenging skill and tool sets. But if you follow The Method unquestioningly, with precision and dogmatic dedication, by your second razor you can well have an edge that outperforms many DE blades and matches even the best ones. You will always carry that knowledge with you, of how to do it and what results you can expect from it.

How To Use a Pasted Balsa Strop - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/how-to-use-a-pasted-balsa-strop.473580/.

 

[Tanuki]

I'm glad that there are several here reporting they use clean leather or clean linen&leather as the final step before shaving with a stone, synthetic, or pasted balsa edge.

I have on a few occasions gotten distracted and forgotten my clean hanging fabric/leather final stropping. I always notice the harsher feel immediately.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I'm glad that there are several here reporting they use clean leather or clean linen&leather as the final step before shaving with a stone, synthetic, or pasted balsa edge.

I have on a few occasions gotten distracted and forgotten my clean hanging fabric/leather final stropping. I always notice the harsher feel immediately.

i have tried not stropping. it can be done, yeah, but with 50 of your best on clean hanging leather, it is SO much better! I even tried stropping on unpasted balsa, and meh. The plain leather hanging strop is just as much a part of shaving, as your brush is.

 

[SilverSteel]

I think there is one more factor to be considered. While I think that paste can produce a sharper edge than even the best stones I also believe, that shaving comfortable with such a sharp blade requires special attention, because any small error in adjusting the angle or the pressure, any small miss in following the contours of your face etc will very easily result in an irritation or cut. Many stones however (natural stones in particular) can produce a forgiving yet still plenty sharp edge that requires less concentration, allow to move the blade more freely which makes it easier to follow the contours of my face. For me this results in a cleaner shave with less irritation and it is overall a more enjoyable experience than always have to be laser focused and in fear of the bite from a ultra sharp edge.

I do believe however that a big part of this is simply personal preference and what you are accustomed and trained to use.

 

[Gamma]

I've used just about every compound there is on just about every substrate imaginable, in every way I could think of and every way that anyone could share with me.
i still prefer to shave with edges honed on stones.
For me, my preferences aren't 'over-emphasis, not after dozen or so years of trials and tests with too many stones and abrasives to count.

Sub micron stuff, nano particles, DI suspensions, high-tech powders developed for NASA (seriously), diamond in mono and poly, alundum of just about every genre, particle shape, size and density. I have a compound on my bench that is sub sub micron, significantly finer than .09 µm. I don't use it often, more for testing mostly. I can make things extremely sharp with it, but I shave with edges honed on stones most days. Like over 90% of the time.

Substrates - the list is ridiculous. From Granite, to EPDM rubbers, many many plastics, a list of fabrics that is just silly, and a kazoo of woods of all types. The different density Balsas were enlightening but I really never bonded with any of them. Basswood was better IMO but I still go back to fabrics every time and I won't go back to wood ever. Felt...too many to remember, I have some really good stuff from Europe here now, very impressive for some compounds, not all, but very good overall. I try new stuff all the time actually. There's a seemingly endless list of leathers also. Probably other stuff I can't remember right now.

Same sort of thing goes for the mediums, suspensions, applications, etc..

Honestly though, I only really like to use compounds for tune ups, and even then I prefer using a stone. I am impressed by some abrasives, sure. I have some powders that are mind bogglingly fine. But I would still rather shave off a stone 99.9% of the time. If I am going to make a 'paste edge' I usually strop the stone work at about 4-5k or so and go from there.

And yes, I prefer 'fresh off the stone' edges. I strop after every honing regimen, it's a given in my world. So fresh off the stones means just what it is... just honed. And yes, stropped.
Saying "fresh off the stones but also stropped" is like saying "I got dressed and put on sox".
The point is/was, a freshly honed apex has a 'crisper' feel to the cut than an edge that has seen lengthy service.

So why do I prefer the stone edges? Feel, mostly. And then there is the process, the rituals, etc, and that matters. Once an edge cuts whiskers flush, effortlessly, making it 'sharper' is just theory, usually pointless, and possibly problematic. A whisker can't be cut less effortlessly, than plain old 'effortlessly'. Flush is flush, there is no such thing as flusher.
So at that stage, the feel of the edge on my face is the other thing I care about. I have shaved with a lot of edges from a lot of sources using a great many honing methods, edges off stones wins every time.

Nelson once sent me a Sheffiled with a maxed Coti edge that was truly impressive. The edges I hone for myself on Jnats are in that same vein but different due to the different stone types. They're the kind of edges that make me want to shave.
Edges done on compounds, meh... some ok, some bad, a few were ok/good but none were in the tier where Nelson's Coti edge lived. My (or anyone's) best 'paste edge' won't do for me what my best Jnat edge does.

Sharp is easy, it's like the fast-food aspect of honing. Sharpness is the McDonalds of honing.. if all I want is sharp, I can get there fast. Just like when I'm hungry I can quench my appetite with a Big Mac fast. Nothing wrong there, it is what it is though.

Anyway, maybe someone who was unable to 'nail it' on stones does better with pastes. Maybe stones are good for one person, but pastes are better for another. Maybe some people do overemphasize stuff. Maybe some don't. Maybe what matters is what I am doing, and maybe what others do doesn't matter. If someone likes pastes, they like pastes, if someone likes rocks, then they like rocks. Maybe we shouldn't tell one or the other they're overdoing it and just get on with our shaving. Ok.

 

[Bayamontate]

Thank you for the love Bro, it is very much appreciated! I too love freshly stoned edges, after trying most honing media including pastes, sprays, lapping film etc. the feeling on my face off stones is IMO unmatched. As stated, sharp is very easy, keen and skin friendly is not, that’s where the true Zen in the game is. While I love jnats and enjoy working on them and their process, I find Coticules intriguing and for me a true barometer of honing chops. The only paste I currently use exclusively is Purple Haze, it too is a good barometer to judge honing outcomes because it’s basically useless unless the edge is truly maxed out. If the user wants übersharp and that goal can only be achieved with the use of pastes/sprays/films then go for it, it’s all about what the end user desires really.

 

[gregory56]

First, abandon what is is considered pure. That's nonsense. The objective is to have a sharp edge that shaves your face well without irritation. What I've found recently, through experimentation, is a pasted balsa strop produces more consistent results than pasted fabric. For me, it's easier to control. Essentially, you are creating a finer grit than you can get with a stone. So... stone vs pasted strop? No. A progression of finer grits up to the point where, in my case, it's too sharp and you need to back off; or you reach the limits of the medium (can get no sharper) using diamond pastes on a balsa strop that @Slash McCoy references.