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Another MWF Question......

I'm relatively new to MWF and in my case, I get great lather without any difficulty whatsoever, despite living in an area of the UK with super-hard water. So in the usual context compared to some who struggle to lather this soap, I'm getting along fine with 'The Fat'.

But........

When I'm shaving, I find that the lather actually increases friction with my [DE] razor compared to other products - it's as though my skin has become 'sticky' and razor doesn't glide - it sticks and jerks a little as I draw the razor over my face, noticeably more on the second and third passes than the first. I'm not riding the top cap - angle is fine and pressure is light too - and I don't get this with, for example TOBS. Post shave feel after MWF is wonderful - not sticky at all.

For reference, I bowl lather - I get bad brush burn if I try to face-lather so that's out, I'm afraid. I 've tried adding more water but that doesn't seem to help - if anything it makes it worse. My process is to swirl a damp brush on the puck for 45 seconds and then build the lather in the bowl adding a few drops of water at a time.

Unfortunately, I've developed a reaction to TOBS which I've been using since converting to DE shaving so I'm keen to make MWF work - shaves are close despite the 'stickiness' but I just worry it's going to horribly wrong sooner or later if the razor sticks and jerks a little too much.

So, may I please ask for the assembled wisdom on B&B to offer me some advice on what I might be doing wrong?
 
I'm relatively new to MWF and in my case, I get great lather without any difficulty whatsoever, despite living in an area of the UK with super-hard water. So in the usual context compared to some who struggle to lather this soap, I'm getting along fine with 'The Fat'.

But........

When I'm shaving, I find that the lather actually increases friction with my [DE] razor compared to other products - it's as though my skin has become 'sticky' and razor doesn't glide - it sticks and jerks a little as I draw the razor over my face, noticeably more on the second and third passes than the first. I'm not riding the top cap - angle is fine and pressure is light too - and I don't get this with, for example TOBS. Post shave feel after MWF is wonderful - not sticky at all.

For reference, I bowl lather - I get bad brush burn if I try to face-lather so that's out, I'm afraid. I 've tried adding more water but that doesn't seem to help - if anything it makes it worse. My process is to swirl a damp brush on the puck for 45 seconds and then build the lather in the bowl adding a few drops of water at a time.

Unfortunately, I've developed a reaction to TOBS which I've been using since converting to DE shaving so I'm keen to make MWF work - shaves are close despite the 'stickiness' but I just worry it's going to horribly wrong sooner or later if the razor sticks and jerks a little too much.

So, may I please ask for the assembled wisdom on B&B to offer me some advice on what I might be doing wrong?

Sir V12Stu, tell us your shave prep?
 
You’d be shocked how much water it can take. Keep adding…like 2X what you think it can take.
Yep, sounds like you need more water. When I use MWF, I get super slick lather...no sticking feeling what so ever.

@Noodles and @gdawg55 - thank you for your thoughts - I very much appreciate your help.

In light of your suggestions, I was due to shave this evening so I tried adding more water to the lather before the first application. I kept adding water until the lather was luxurious but wetter than I have tried before - the lather couldn't quite make 'peaks' as I took the brush out of the lather and was not overly aerated; it was shiny on the surface. I guess a text book lather from what I've read. To get to this point, I added a few drops of water at a time repeatedly - ie no deluge of water at any point.

The result - the worst shaving experience so far! The lather was the opposite end of the spectrum to slick - it was more grabby than ever and I had a very, very poor shave on the first pass. The razor just stuck to my skin and I was minded to be very careful not to cut myself.

I have to say, I didn't want to repeat that experience, so I decided that discretion was the better part of valour and I rinsed the remaining lather from my brush and bowl with the intention of starting again.

Just before I started again, I ran a finger over the MWF puck and rubbed the unadulterated soap over the back of my hand. it was super-slick with no hint of grabbiness.

So, I thought I'd try the opposite tactic and make the next lather with less rather than more water and see what happened. This time, I added water a few drops at a time, as before, but stopped just as the lather began to gain volume. At this point, it was thick and creamy, forming 'stiff peaks'.

This time, the shave was brilliant - best I've experienced ever - no grabbiness, just slick, smooth, cushioned, close and utterly enjoyable. The opposite end of the spectrum.

Now, this is one lather that has worked so the sample size is small and needs to be repeated to ensure consistency - but I hope I'm onto something here. I will report back after further shaves to confirm or deny whether this method is repeatable but for now, for my skin, with my water - that was a great shave in the end.

@Noodles and @gdawg55 - I am very grateful for your suggestions and I mean no disrespect in my reply - quite the opposite - you may very well have given me the answer by enabling me to get it more wrong than right - for me. Thanks again for your help.

Will keep you posted in the coming days/shaves.
 
@Noodles and @gdawg55 - thank you for your thoughts - I very much appreciate your help.

In light of your suggestions, I was due to shave this evening so I tried adding more water to the lather before the first application. I kept adding water until the lather was luxurious but wetter than I have tried before - the lather couldn't quite make 'peaks' as I took the brush out of the lather and was not overly aerated; it was shiny on the surface. I guess a text book lather from what I've read. To get to this point, I added a few drops of water at a time repeatedly - ie no deluge of water at any point.

The result - the worst shaving experience so far! The lather was the opposite end of the spectrum to slick - it was more grabby than ever and I had a very, very poor shave on the first pass. The razor just stuck to my skin and I was minded to be very careful not to cut myself.

I have to say, I didn't want to repeat that experience, so I decided that discretion was the better part of valour and I rinsed the remaining lather from my brush and bowl with the intention of starting again.

Just before I started again, I ran a finger over the MWF puck and rubbed the unadulterated soap over the back of my hand. it was super-slick with no hint of grabbiness.

So, I thought I'd try the opposite tactic and make the next lather with less rather than more water and see what happened. This time, I added water a few drops at a time, as before, but stopped just as the lather began to gain volume. At this point, it was thick and creamy, forming 'stiff peaks'.

This time, the shave was brilliant - best I've experienced ever - no grabbiness, just slick, smooth, cushioned, close and utterly enjoyable. The opposite end of the spectrum.

Now, this is one lather that has worked so the sample size is small and needs to be repeated to ensure consistency - but I hope I'm onto something here. I will report back after further shaves to confirm or deny whether this method is repeatable but for now, for my skin, with my water - that was a great shave in the end.

@Noodles and @gdawg55 - I am very grateful for your suggestions and I mean no disrespect in my reply - quite the opposite - you may very well have given me the answer by enabling me to get it more wrong than right - for me. Thanks again for your help.

Will keep you posted in the coming days/shaves.
Nice job. Really depends on the type of water you have I guess as to how much is required. Glad you found a solution that worked for you. I find MWF to be excellent soap but not necessarily an auto pilot lather maker.

BTW….good move on starting over. Sometimes I plow through with less that great lather and I always regret it.
 
In order to get it to work with hard water you might be loading the brush heavily. If it has the consistency of glue, it might be too dense; as others have commented it may need more water. You might also try soaking your brush in bottled water or tap water mixed with bottled water. That might increase the volume of the lather and improve the slickness.

The last thing that I can think of is working the lather longer with a brush with coarser hair. If you are using a synthetic brush and have a boar brush available to you, try that. This could increase the volume of the lather by trapping more air bubbles within the structure.

P.S. A better way of phrasing the last point might be to say, "use a brush with less hair density".
 
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Sir V12Stu, tell us your shave prep?

A very good question!

I have very thick, dense and 'wiry' head hair - after a night's sleep it is stiff, directional and completely unmanageable without washing with shampoo and conditioner - after which it's soft and 'floppy' and falls into place naturally. I guess my facial hair is the same.

So before I shave, I shower and wash my facial hair with shampoo and conditioner, exactly as I wash my head hair. Then rinse and soak a bit longer in the shower to ensure my facial hair is well hydrated.

This seems to serve me well - shaving with TOBS this way is fine but MWF was grabby - but I'm really hopeful I may have found the answer as I explained above.

Nevertheless, very grateful for any and all advice in the pre-shave routine! I'm still quite new to DE shaving.....
 
@Noodles and @gdawg55 - thank you for your thoughts - I very much appreciate your help.

In light of your suggestions, I was due to shave this evening so I tried adding more water to the lather before the first application. I kept adding water until the lather was luxurious but wetter than I have tried before - the lather couldn't quite make 'peaks' as I took the brush out of the lather and was not overly aerated; it was shiny on the surface. I guess a text book lather from what I've read. To get to this point, I added a few drops of water at a time repeatedly - ie no deluge of water at any point.

The result - the worst shaving experience so far! The lather was the opposite end of the spectrum to slick - it was more grabby than ever and I had a very, very poor shave on the first pass. The razor just stuck to my skin and I was minded to be very careful not to cut myself.

I have to say, I didn't want to repeat that experience, so I decided that discretion was the better part of valour and I rinsed the remaining lather from my brush and bowl with the intention of starting again.

Just before I started again, I ran a finger over the MWF puck and rubbed the unadulterated soap over the back of my hand. it was super-slick with no hint of grabbiness.

So, I thought I'd try the opposite tactic and make the next lather with less rather than more water and see what happened. This time, I added water a few drops at a time, as before, but stopped just as the lather began to gain volume. At this point, it was thick and creamy, forming 'stiff peaks'.

This time, the shave was brilliant - best I've experienced ever - no grabbiness, just slick, smooth, cushioned, close and utterly enjoyable. The opposite end of the spectrum.

Now, this is one lather that has worked so the sample size is small and needs to be repeated to ensure consistency - but I hope I'm onto something here. I will report back after further shaves to confirm or deny whether this method is repeatable but for now, for my skin, with my water - that was a great shave in the end.

@Noodles and @gdawg55 - I am very grateful for your suggestions and I mean no disrespect in my reply - quite the opposite - you may very well have given me the answer by enabling me to get it more wrong than right - for me. Thanks again for your help.

Will keep you posted in the coming days/shaves.
I had a very similar experience with Mystic Waters soap. The amount of water that you add is one factor, but the rate at which the water is added is a separate factor. If you are getting to the point where you are creating sticky lather, that can usually be turned into slick lather with the gradual addition of water. You are basically mixing three components: soap, water and air. I imagine some of the soap constituents are soluble in water, while other components (e.g. the fats) are forming suspended micelles or being trapped in air bubbles. Suspensions are tricky and the easiest way to test the slickness of the lather is to rub it between your fingers. The structure of the lather can be misleading.
 
In order to get it to work with hard water you might be loading the brush heavily. If it has the consistency of glue, it might be too dense; as others have commented it may need more water. You might also try soaking your brush in bottled water or tap water mixed with bottled water. That might increase the volume of the lather and improve the slickness.

The last thing that I can think of is working the lather longer with a brush with coarser hair. If you are using a synthetic brush and have a boar brush available to you, try that. This could increase the volume of the lather by trapping more air bubbles within the structure.

P.S. A better way of phrasing the last point might be to say, "use a brush with less hair density".

Thanks @Keyvan - I tried filtered [soft] water too but to no avail - in which case I guess that it's a skin type vs soap argument. Well, for now at least.

Good point about the brush. I have only one brush at this stage - a relatively inexpensive but dense best badger brush.

That may very well change soon - I have my eye on a Semogue SOC Mistura mixed badger and boar brush next...... :thumbup1:
 
That "stickiness" and "grabby" feeling was most likely due to the lather being too thin/airy. The razor wasn't able to glide and therefore felt like it was sticking to the skin.

Which makes sense given using less water resolved the issue.

I've had this occur when I've used other soaps that couldn't take too much water or I didn't load enough soap.
 
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