GD66 Bevel Set - How to

[TheBeast]

I have yet to have to hone a blade where the edge extends into the stabiliser area. I'm not saying they don't exist, just that I have never experienced them.

That being said, I have honed blades where the edge extends to very close (within 2mm to 3mm) to the stabiliser area. Indeed, some of my earliest blades were like that. This was actually beneficial for me as it quickly taught me to pay more attention to the position of the blade on the honing surface. This knowledge assisted me in developing my honing skills.

If red area (tang, or general area above the toe corner) (when looking at the spine from the top) is wider than the Green area (spine), that's when this issue is pressent. This comoy has been modified by sanding Down the are under the shapes I drew. The sanding was done from the toe end of the spine through the stabilizer area into the tang.

My GD or Titan didn't have these modifications done. And I struggled to understand the issue. Even with toe leading strokes I was not hitting the bevel evenly.

 

[rbscebu]

If red area (tang, or general area above the toe corner) (when looking at the spine from the top) is wider than the Green area (spine), that's when this issue is pressent. This comoy has been modified by sanding Down the are under the shapes I drew. The sanding was done from the toe end of the spine through the stabilizer area into the tang.

My GD or Titan didn't have these modifications done. And I struggled to understand the issue. Even with toe leading strokes I was not hitting the bevel evenly.

View attachment 1593702

I miss that SR but am still glad that I gave it to you. From memory, I did no modifications to that blade. I just honed it from its factory edge. It gave me one of my keenest edges and a great shave to boot.

I believe @Straight up bought a few and may still include some in his active stable.

 

[JPO]

I'm not sure if setting a bevel on a kitchen knife vs straight razor is the same thing. When I set the bevel on a straight razor, I'm looking for it cut arm hair easily. Just barely touch it and it cuts off the hair. I may be taking it too far on the lower grits but I've had the best edges when done this way. Whenever the edge is hesitating off the bevel set, I've had poor results in the end.

What would be your definition of bevel set on a kitchen knife?

As long as the two sides of the bevel meets and intersects you have a set bevel. Your final apex is ending up behind the 1k stria. Even if you cut off those ragged 1k teeth you will end up with a good edge after your next stones in the progression.
If you look at this under magnification it is much easier to see what is going on.
The kitchen knife comparison was just to put things into perspective. 600 atoma is for knife chip repair or stone flattening in my opinion.

 

[Timeclo]

Yes, I agree but I think there's more to that. Two sides of the bevel can meet and intersect at various widths.

For example, this is a demonstration of a dull edge I found.

You can say that two sides of the bevel meets and intersects for this edge but it won't be a good shaving edge. I'd say if there is no light reflecting when you look straight down the edge, you're at a good point but even then, I think the edge width could be thinner. I want the edge width to be as thin as possible so that it cuts off hair effortlessly. The difference in the edge width is at a microscopic level after a certain point but I can feel it by how it cuts hair.

 

[TheBeast]

Yes, I agree but I think there's more to that. Two sides of the bevel can meet and intersect at various widths.

For example, this is a demonstration of a dull edge I found.

View attachment 1593710

You can say that two sides of the bevel meets and intersects for this edge but it won't be a good shaving edge. I'd say if there is no light reflecting when you look straight down the edge, you're at a good point but even then, I think the edge width could be thinner. I want the edge width to be as thin as possible so that it cuts off hair effortlessly. The difference in the edge width is at a microscopic level after a certain point but I can feel it by how it cuts hair.

I don't know how long you are honing, I have for 3 days and I don't agree with your statement. This picture shows has a red line with in a shape of the V. The tip of that V is the edge. The black line representing the edge in this picture is a dull edge that would reflect light even under a 10x loupe with correct lightning. This black edge is not at the point where the bevels are intersecting. If the edge would have at the tip of the red V, it would be a perfect one, considering that if you would continue to prolong the red lines at their angle, they would form an X.

Enough with theory, I would say you are not going to get a great edge at 1k. Shaving arm hair after 1k is possible, even shaving your face is, but it wouldn't be very comfortable. Shaving arm hair after 1k is not a perfect way to determine if the bevel is set. It is a way, sure, same as cutting into tomato skin without effort, but not perfect. Looking straight down at the edge with correct lightning with magnification will tell you more, in my opinion. It tells you that the edge is as thin as possible, because it has no flat surfaces that could reflect light. It's a more precise way to determine the state of bevel set.

 

[rbscebu]

@TheBeast, you are learning and starting to think the correct way about honing SRs.

You're right, college was easier than learning SR honing .

 

[JPO]

Yes, I agree but I think there's more to that. Two sides of the bevel can meet and intersect at various widths.

For example, this is a demonstration of a dull edge I found.

View attachment 1593710

You can say that two sides of the bevel meets and intersects for this edge but it won't be a good shaving edge. I'd say if there is no light reflecting when you look straight down the edge, you're at a good point but even then, I think the edge width could be thinner. I want the edge width to be as thin as possible so that it cuts off hair effortlessly. The difference in the edge width is at a microscopic level after a certain point but I can feel it by how it cuts hair.

This is a coarse 1k Morihei edge. You need to remove enough material to get behind these teeth. So how the edge performs at the serrated edge is not that important. If you somehow could just cut off the serrations you will still have a set bevel, but it would not shave arm hair at all.

 

[TheBeast]

So, the GD edge is not much of a shaver. It cuts leg hair above the skin with a popping sound. It does not pass a HHT. More importantly, it leaves behind lots of stubble when shaving my face with the grain. So does my Comoy (I got it honed, didn't do nothing to it myself, except stropping), but it shaves a little better - as in taking off more stubble. I wasn't able to finnish the shave with neither of the edges, so I re-lathered and switched to my shavette loaded with Astra SP, which gave me quite a close shave with a single WTG pass, no effort. It also gave a few cuts, because I'm still learning how to SR shave.

GD after 12k stropping on clean leather 70 laps, shaving, stropping on linen for 10 laps, stropping on leather for 50 laps:

Comoy after shaving, 10 laps on linen, 50 on clean leather:

The Comoy shows deeper/coarser scratches, but shaves better. Looks don't shave, of course.

This is the Comoy as recieved and my goal to achieve by my own hand:

Thank you all for your help. I learned a lot. I for sure set a bevel as was the point of starting this thread. Now I'll go down the hole of trying out all the ways to improve the edge I have put on the GD. I'll try honing my other razors as well and hopefully get better why doing it. My goal is to create a collection of razors and be able to put and mantain edges on all of them. Then be happy about them and use them daily.

To conclude the results that were achieved by starting this thread:

I have learned to:

not go under 1k if not neccessary.
not use sandpaper or DMT so I don't have to deal with deep scratches.
not grind steel away mindlessly, but rather do lots sharpie tests and be sure that the whole edge and spine are lying flat on the hone, and the ink is removed in 1 light lap evenly across the whole bevel

I learned how to surely determine if the bevel was set, how it should look under the magnification, and the rest of honing is just removing all the scratches on the progression of choice. Sure it's best to max out each stone and remove all the scratches. At 8k, the bevels should look like a mirror under my little scope.


For the GD that has served me well to teach me all of this, I will try to get a mirror finnish at 8k by going back to it for some time, possibly starting over and go from 1k once again. 1k should get all the deep scratches from using the sandpaper and the DMT in the past on this razor. I understand it is not neccessary to get a mirror under strong magnification at 8k, but I have seen it can be done, and came close myself. It is fascinating to me and it is my goal for the future, even if it doesn't do much for the shaving abilty of the edge. To learn what makes the better at shaving myself will take a long time, first to learn how to shave with SR effectively and then experiment with various honing methods. After I max out my 12k Naniwa Super Stone which is my current and only finnisher, I'll get into balsa strops with a diamond paste progression up until 0.1 micron. This may take weeks, months or years and I'm fine with it it. This looks like a start of a beautiful hobby.

Thank you all for you help again, especialy rbscebu, H Brad and Slash. You guys have guided me towards my first edge. Albeit a crappy edge for shaving, the fault is mine. My hands learn slow. But it's all fine, eventually, I'll get wherever I want to.

 

[Timeclo]

I don't know how long you are honing, I have for 3 days and I don't agree with your statement. This picture shows has a red line with in a shape of the V. The tip of that V is the edge. The black line representing the edge in this picture is a dull edge that would reflect light even under a 10x loupe with correct lightning. This black edge is not at the point where the bevels are intersecting. If the edge would have at the tip of the red V, it would be a perfect one, considering that if you would continue to prolong the red lines at their angle, they would form an X.

Enough with theory, I would say you are not going to get a great edge at 1k. Shaving arm hair after 1k is possible, even shaving your face is, but it wouldn't be very comfortable. Shaving arm hair after 1k is not a perfect way to determine if the bevel is set. It is a way, sure, same as cutting into tomato skin without effort, but not perfect. Looking straight down at the edge with correct lightning with magnification will tell you more, in my opinion. It tells you that the edge is as thin as possible, because it has no flat surfaces that could reflect light. It's a more precise way to determine the state of bevel set.

Yeah, sometimes getting into the theory of honing may not be useful.

I'm just saying that the term "Bevel set" can be confusing. I've had edges where no light would reflect but still wasn't there yet in terms of shave. When two sides of the bevel intersect, there can be varying widths.

The "Bevel set" I'm going off of is when it cuts hair effortlessly. I've had edges off the Atoma 600 cut hair effortlessly and that seems to be the best indication of a good edge in the end. I may change this couple months later but it's what works for me currently.

 

[SilverSteel]

So, the GD edge is not much of a shaver. It cuts leg hair above the skin with a popping sound. It does not pass a HHT. More importantly, it leaves behind lots of stubble when shaving my face with the grain. So does my Comoy (I got it honed, didn't do nothing to it myself, except stropping), but it shaves a little better - as in taking off more stubble. I wasn't able to finnish the shave with neither of the edges, so I re-lathered and switched to my shavette loaded with Astra SP, which gave me quite a close shave with a single WTG pass, no effort. It also gave a few cuts, because I'm still learning how to SR shave.

GD after 12k stropping on clean leather 70 laps, shaving, stropping on linen for 10 laps, stropping on leather for 50 laps:

View attachment 1593726

Comoy after shaving, 10 laps on linen, 50 on clean leather:

View attachment 1593727

The Comoy shows deeper/coarser scratches, but shaves better. Looks don't shave, of course.

This is the Comoy as recieved and my goal to achieve by my own hand:

View attachment 1593730


Thank you all for your help. I learned a lot. I for sure set a bevel as was the point of starting this thread. Now I'll go down the hole of trying out all the ways to improve the edge I have put on the GD. I'll try honing my other razors as well and hopefully get better why doing it. My goal is to create a collection of razors and be able to put and mantain edges on all of them. Then be happy about them and use them daily.

To conclude the results that were achieved by starting this thread:

I have learned to:

not go under 1k if not neccessary.
not use sandpaper or DMT so I don't have to deal with deep scratches.
not grind steel away mindlessly, but rather do lots sharpie tests and be sure that the whole edge and spine are lying flat on the hone, and the ink is removed in 1 light lap evenly across the whole bevel

I learned how to surely determine if the bevel was set, how it should look under the magnification, and the rest of honing is just removing all the scratches on the progression of choice. Sure it's best to max out each stone and remove all the scratches. At 8k, the bevels should look like a mirror under my little scope.


For the GD that has served me well to teach me all of this, I will try to get a mirror finnish at 8k by going back to it for some time, possibly starting over and go from 1k once again. 1k should get all the deep scratches from using the sandpaper and the DMT in the past on this razor. I understand it is not neccessary to get a mirror under strong magnification at 8k, but I have seen it can be done, and came close myself. It is fascinating to me and it is my goal for the future, even if it doesn't do much for the shaving abilty of the edge. To learn what makes the better at shaving myself will take a long time, first to learn how to shave with SR effectively and then experiment with various honing methods. After I max out my 12k Naniwa Super Stone which is my current and only finnisher, I'll get into balsa strops with a diamond paste progression up until 0.1 micron. This may take weeks, months or years and I'm fine with it it. This looks like a start of a beautiful hobby.

Thank you all for you help again, especialy rbscebu, H Brad and Slash. You guys have guided me towards my first edge. Albeit a crappy edge for shaving, the fault is mine. My hands learn slow. But it's all fine, eventually, I'll get wherever I want to.

Looking at the first image in your post I get the impression that you are hitting coarser particles on your polishing stones (see how those scratches seem to begin at the edge with a small dent in the edge?) and that you are not hitting the apex of the edge with your strokes on the finer stones (see how some of the scratches are very visible close to the edge and disappear a bit on the upper side of the bevel). See also how in image 3 of the good edge it's the exact opposite. There are some deeper scratches on the upper side of the bevel that disappear towards the edge.

You could try to put 1 or two layers of tape on the spine when you change to the 8k and above. This will help to hit the apex.
Also remember to clean the stones as described with nail brush and soap after lapping them with your diamond plate.

 

[TheBeast]

Yeah, sometimes getting into the theory of honing may not be useful.

I'm just saying that the term "Bevel set" can be confusing. I've had edges where no light would reflect but still wasn't there yet in terms of shave. When two sides of the bevel intersect, there can be varying widths.

The "Bevel set" I'm going off of is when it cuts hair effortlessly. I've had edges off the Atoma 600 cut hair effortlessly and that seems to be the best indication of a good edge in the end. I may change this couple months later but it's what works for me currently.

I was shaving arm hair off 320 sandpaper. It didn't make a good edge in the end. What works for anyone should be done by anyone. For sure bevell setting was confusing for me at the start. But understanding basic geometry helps. The edge is at the tip of the V. The "sides" or "lines" of the V are bevel planes. They meet at the tip of the V, which is the edge. In theory, these planes have no thickness and so doesn't the edge as well. The closer you can get to this point oh having NO thickness at the edge, the better. This is best seen when you joint the edge and look straight down on it. It has a reflection, so it is flat. The bevel can be set at that point, but jointing the very edge results in thee edge gaining thickness and so it is not sharp and doesn't cut. When the bevels are set (they intersected at the very edge), a few light laps on whichever stone will bring the edge back.

That's my take on all this, maybe it can help you in understanding the "bevel set" theory and this knowledge will result in better edges while honing.

 

[TheBeast]

Looking at the first image in your post I get the impression that you are hitting coarser particles on your polishing stones (see how those scratches seem to begin at the edge with a small dent in the edge?) and that you are not hitting the apex of the edge with your strokes on the finer stones (see how some of the scratches are very visible close to the edge and disappear a bit on the upper side of the bevel). See also how in image 3 of the good edge it's the exact opposite. There are some deeper scratches on the upper side of the bevel that disappear towards the edge.

You could try to put 1 or two layers of tape on the spine when you change to the 8k and above. This will help to hit the apex.
Also remember to clean the stones as described with nail brush and soap after lapping them with your diamond plate.

After applying your tips, I got a better result as far as the scratch pattern on my bevels. I didn't use tape though, I was just a bit tidier, washed every part of my gear with water and some soap, including my lapping plate, before switching or touching another stone. But I didn't wash the stones with soap, just water and my palm. From 1k to 12k in under an hour, and the result is cleaner than the GD after 3 days.

Swedish Eskilstuna Straight Razor after 12k, before and after stropping:

Test shave incoming tommorow.

 

[TheBeast]

Yeah, sometimes getting into the theory of honing may not be useful.

I'm just saying that the term "Bevel set" can be confusing. I've had edges where no light would reflect but still wasn't there yet in terms of shave. When two sides of the bevel intersect, there can be varying widths.

The "Bevel set" I'm going off of is when it cuts hair effortlessly. I've had edges off the Atoma 600 cut hair effortlessly and that seems to be the best indication of a good edge in the end. I may change this couple months later but it's what works for me currently.

In this picture we are looking at an edge that's thinner than one micrometer, which is 0.001 milimiters, which is 0.000039 in. Note that there is no width to the edge, nor thickness. Even though we are not looking at it directly from above (which is perfect for this example), we can say that for sure it won't reflect light when looking straight down. If you can see no light reflecting and the edge is not shaving, look better, adjust your lighning source to one single soucre of light that is quite powerful. I have seen reflections in a dark room using only my cellphone flash with a 10x loupe. If it cuts the hair effortlessly on the arm at 600 DMT, I would say the edge is toothy like hell. 1k stone edges are toothy under enough magnification, as seen in a picture above provided by JPO.

Also worth to point out that this is a micro convex bevel.

Source: Simple Straight Razor Honing - https://scienceofsharp.com/2016/04/14/simple-straight-razor-honing/comment-page-2/

Great article, worth the quick read.

 

[TheBeast]

Another quick question. What do you All think about these scratch marks left by my lapping plate?

I use a cheap Diamond sharpening Stone of a Japanese SK11 brand.

I don't Remember such marks from back when I was using sandpaper on a tile to lap.

 

[Timeclo]

In this picture we are looking at an edge that's thinner than one micrometer, which is 0.001 milimiters, which is 0.000039 in. Note that there is no width to the edge, nor thickness. Even though we are not looking at it directly from above (which is perfect for this example), we can say that for sure it won't reflect light when looking straight down. If you can see no light reflecting and the edge is not shaving, look better, adjust your lighning source to one single soucre of light that is quite powerful. I have seen reflections in a dark room using only my cellphone flash with a 10x loupe. If it cuts the hair effortlessly on the arm at 600 DMT, I would say the edge is toothy like hell. 1k stone edges are toothy under enough magnification, as seen in a picture above provided by JPO.

Also worth to point out that this is a micro convex bevel.

View attachment 1593802

Source: Simple Straight Razor Honing - https://scienceofsharp.com/2016/04/14/simple-straight-razor-honing/comment-page-2/

Great article, worth the quick read.

Yes, this kind of edge would be the one to model after. My edge shaves when the light doesn't reflect but it's not the edge that I want; there's more work to be done when I go through other tests.

Just because light doesn't reflect on the edge doesn't mean that it's perfect. Does light reflect on a edge width of 100 micrometer? What about 50? 25?
I'm not sure at which width the light doesn't reflect but I'm sure it's not at just 1micrometer. Even within the non-reflection, there could be more work done.

I'm not sure if an extremely toothy edge cuts a hair effortlessly. Doesn't sound logical to me but I may be wrong. Anyhow, that's been the best start to my bevel set so I'm sticking to it. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[TheBeast]

Yes, this kind of edge would be the one to model after. My edge shaves when the light doesn't reflect but it's not the edge that I want; there's more work to be done when I go through other tests.

Just because light doesn't reflect on the edge doesn't mean that it's perfect. Does light reflect on a edge width of 100 micrometer? What about 50? 25?
I'm not sure at which width the light doesn't reflect but I'm sure it's not at just 1micrometer. Even within the non-reflection, there could be more work done.

I'm not sure if an extremely toothy edge cuts a hair effortlessly. Doesn't sound logical to me but I may be wrong. Anyhow, that's been the best start to my bevel set so I'm sticking to it. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Sure, what works for you will work for you and that's what matters. Just saying, with All due respect, if the light doesn't reflect (under some magnification, in my case a little usb camera that is sold as a microscope) there is NO way that edge has width. Once the bevels meet, and the edge is at the Point of meeting bevels, it will not reflect light and it will not have any width. It is mathematically impossible in theorey, and it is similar in reality. Trust me at least in the mathematical part, I have a mechanical engineering degree (lots of math). That picture shows extreme magnification under a very expensive microscope. In the article there are edges off of a 1200 DMT and a King 1k. Look at their difference.

The edge at lower grits might not cut and it is not because it has any width. It is because the Apex is damaged by the coarse medium. There could be micro burrs, there could be tinfoil edges, but no edge width. That's why refining the bevels (and the edge) at 3k (or aby grit in 2-5k range) will have better results. Less work is needed on the 1k, less steel is removed, and the edge and bevels more refined. You are polishing Up at 6-8k. And that is as Well easier from the 3k. Many long year honers have said that getting an edge to shave off 1k is problematic. And they Can go from bevel set to passing hanging hair test in under 100 laps TOTAL, sometimes less.

I don't want to give out lectures, I have no honing experience under the Belt. Only my first HHT passing edge. But as the matter of edge width goes, there is no width Once the bevels are set. It is mathematically proven in theory and reality is very close. Maybe there is a microscope that can show some edge width at EXTREM magnification, but that would not affect a 1k arm shave edge result. There could be a difference of 1k edge and 30k edge, but most of that comes from having an Apex that's well formed. At 1k the Apex is rough, but still without width that's observable by an Arm hair shave test.


Anyway, everybody is welcome to Stick with whatever works for them. Good luck with your honing! May you find your best edge in no time!

 

[rbscebu]

@TheBeast, you will not forget what you have learnt and I hope you don't forget what you went through to learn. With that knowledge you are now able to start offering advice to other beginners starting down the honing path.

Now you just need €1k or more to start buying a few upper-end natural whetstone finishers .

 

[Darth Scandalous]

Does light reflect on a edge width of 100 micrometer? What about 50? 25?
I'm not sure at which width the light doesn't reflect but I'm sure it's not at just 1micrometer. Even within the non-reflection, there could be more work done.

Did you mean nanometers? 100 micrometers (microns) is a tenth of a millimeter which is in relative terms, huge. Visible light has wavelengths roughly between 300 and 700 nanometers (0.3-0.7 micrometers), for reference, although I don't know enough about optics to say precisely how that impacts reflectivity from a razor's apex.

Anyway, not to get into the weeds, but as I understand the reflection test, it tells you that the bevel geometry is cleanly established. It has implications for the state of the apex but it doesn't tell you as much as say, the shave test.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

The visual test is just a simple tool to tell you when the bevels are meeting and looks at the whole edge. Most other test, hair, TNT and tomato do not test the whole edge, hair for example test only a very small part of the edge at a time.

All tests must be calibrated to the user. The user must have an understanding what the results of the test mean. For example if a hair test does not cut hair, but you immediately try again a millimeter down the edge and it cuts hair, did the razor pass the HHT?

The goal of the bevel setting stone, what ever grit it is, is to grind the bevels flat, to grind to the correct bevel angle and to bring them to meeting fully at the edge. The bevels in the photo in post 87 are not meeting fully.

If you have a problematic razor, and you look at the edge like in post 87 and do not see reflections, you can joint the edge and look straight down on the jointed edge. Now the whole edge should reflect light. Where you see dark spots, that is where the bevels were not meeting fully, chips or weak steel.

Once jointed, if the bevels were flat and in the correct bevel angle, if should be easy to bring the bevels back to meeting in 10-20 laps, if you only removed a few microns of steel. Jointing will also make a stronger edge as you have removed all the flashing and weak steel and made a straight edge, now you just need to bring the bevels to an edge that is already straight.

The benefit of the visual test is that it is quick, you can test the whole edge, it is non-destructive and non-subjective, if you see reflections, no matter how small, it’s a fail.

The first OP’s photo in post 88 would probably shave, if jointed and the bevel reset on the 8k. The deep stria would be problematic as you can see that each deep stria ends in a pronounced chip at the edge.

You remove all the deep stria because it will end in a chip, not because how it makes the bevel look. How a bevel looks can predict how it will shave once you learn what to look for.

 

[Timeclo]

Did you mean nanometers? 100 micrometers (microns) is a tenth of a millimeter which is in relative terms, huge. Visible light has wavelengths roughly between 300 and 700 nanometers (0.3-0.7 micrometers), for reference, although I don't know enough about optics to say precisely how that impacts reflectivity from a razor's apex.

Anyway, not to get into the weeds, but as I understand the reflection test, it tells you that the bevel geometry is cleanly established. It has implications for the state of the apex but it doesn't tell you as much as say, the shave test.

Same here. I guess what I wanted to point out is that I've had to do a bit more work even when the edge passes the reflection test and that early work in the bevel pays dividends later on.