Do I just suck at stropping?

[Gamma]

"this razor was honed with 3 layers of tape to protect the spine and to keep the bevel narrow and tight:

Thank you for the laugh.
In case that seller is a member here, I'll refrain from commenting further...
I would like to know how tape makes a bevel 'tight' though..
Sorry, momentary slip.... moving on now.... but what is a 'tight bevel' anyway? Lol... sorry, couldn't help it. Really moving on now.

Anyway, seems you have a plan to get the edge done. Probably needs work, given the

Backtracking though..

20/50 is NOT 'too much' stropping.

If an edge is falling off fast, it can be from a poorly done bevel, yes.
Three shaves in and needing a pasted strop speaks to a poorly done edge, or....
Could also be that your lather is off, your stropping isn't up to snuff, along with the bad bevel. Or one or all of the above.
Sometimes, it's more than just one thing. So check the entire process for possible weak points.

Abrasive compound on a hanging linen is actually quite a good idea, it's been done for centuries and it works fine. A textured fabric surface can be extremely efficacious. Almost any surface can work but some work better than others. I keep trying new substrates of all types for many years now and keep coming back to hanging fabric. Loom strops can be good too if the hide is on-point. I want to make a fabric loom strop someday actually. I have a blade going 3 years with a linen/paste strop maintenance, no bevel issues - none. Just keep it taught, keep the lap count low. The imaginary fears that some banter around are unsubstantiated wive's tales from the dark ages of the shaving news group.
I will agree that keeping the charged strop away from everything else is a good idea. Esp Crox in a water-based medium, stuff dries up into a fine powder that can get dust all over the place.

 

[alex1921]

Thank you all, this is really good advice. A little more info...

I have a dedicated cotton strop I planned to use with CrOx. As had been advised to me earlier, I was not going to use my main strop for this and if I was going to use different pastes I was going to use a different dedicated strop for each one to avoid bleed through but using a harder surface seems wiser for now.

I got both razors from eBay from a guy that calls himself "Davidwork2003". He posted his honing method as follows:

"this razor was honed with the following progression with 3 layers of tape to protect the spine and to keep the bevel narrow and tight:

Shapton Kuromaku Ceramic 2k
Shapton Kuromaku Ceramic 5k
Seuhiro Kouseki
Nakayama
Vintage Scottish Linen Fire Hose Strop
Tony Miller Rough Out Strop
Tony Miller Fast Bridle Strop"

Not sure if anyone has experience with him or not but he sounded like he knew what he was talking about and has 100% positive reviews. I wasn't too sure about the 3 layers of tape, seems excessive but I guess we'll find out.

@Slash McCoy would I use the 320 grit and THEN put diamond paste on it? I would have thought one or the other. 320 grit seems pretty coarse. I guess instead of asking I should read the actual thread first lol. Thanks for the direction to TAP Plastics, I will check them out. Any advice on finding good balsa?

I'm sending both razors to H Brad Boonshaft to check out and, if needed (probably will) hone. He's local and on the Honemeister list and has been super helpful.

Again guys, thanks so much. When you're actually open to get help, this community rocks!

Well, this is one razor I got from that seller.

Bought this one as shave ready. Tried to shave, no go, tugging. Scope showed the edge and the condition it was in, overhoned at parts, feathering and breaking off. Parts of edge the synthetic stone striae didn't go all the way to the edge and then there was a secondary edge but not that smooth.
1 layer of 88 tape, the bevel didn't make contact all the way to the edge and for the sake of not widening the bevel too much, yes just esthetics, I added a layer of kapton and did the basic work with GS stones.
Tried a hard jnat, Escher and a softer jnat. The softer jnat gave this one a very comfortable edge.

View attachment 1523085

 

[Slash McCoy]

This thread gives me hope that eventually I’ll be able to go longer between edge refreshes.

I get about 5 shaves max maintaining on linen and leather only before I have to touch up on film or pasted balsa. My film edges last longer than a balsa edge, so I think the balsa edge is just too delicate for my beard/stropping/shaving technique.

My stropping has improved but I know my film edges can get better. I think people (ie me) rely on pasted balsa to mask substandard honing, which leads to a weak/foil edge.

I have never found pasted balsa to create a fin edge. Your finishing stone or film is more likely the culprit, along with too much pressure and not using any pull strokes or finishing with short x strokes.

You should be able to spot a fin edge or any other sort of burr structure, under very bright light with strong magnification.

 

[Seelector]

I have never found pasted balsa to create a fin edge. Your finishing stone or film is more likely the culprit, along with too much pressure and not using any pull strokes or finishing with short x strokes.

You should be able to spot a fin edge or any other sort of burr structure, under very bright light with strong magnification.

This is a good point. I think my pressure is ok but I often forget about pull strokes. Sometimes I remember right at the end and throw a few in almost as an afterthought.

 

[ehehat]

Well, this is one razor I got from that seller.

That's VERY good to know. I've already sent them off to get looked at and so far the initial reports show issues with the edge. Hopefully We'll know more in the next day or 2. I'm quite sure my stropping technique still needs work but it's good to hear that my issues aren't "only" from poor stropping. As they say.... practice makes perfect.

 

[ehehat]

Thank you for the laugh.
In case that seller is a member here, I'll refrain from commenting further...
I would like to know how tape makes a bevel 'tight' though..
Sorry, momentary slip.... moving on now.... but what is a 'tight bevel' anyway? Lol... sorry, couldn't help it. Really moving on now.

Anyway, seems you have a plan to get the edge done. Probably needs work, given the

Backtracking though..

20/50 is NOT 'too much' stropping.

If an edge is falling off fast, it can be from a poorly done bevel, yes.
Three shaves in and needing a pasted strop speaks to a poorly done edge, or....
Could also be that your lather is off, your stropping isn't up to snuff, along with the bad bevel. Or one or all of the above.
Sometimes, it's more than just one thing. So check the entire process for possible weak points.

Abrasive compound on a hanging linen is actually quite a good idea, it's been done for centuries and it works fine. A textured fabric surface can be extremely efficacious. Almost any surface can work but some work better than others. I keep trying new substrates of all types for many years now and keep coming back to hanging fabric. Loom strops can be good too if the hide is on-point. I want to make a fabric loom strop someday actually. I have a blade going 3 years with a linen/paste strop maintenance, no bevel issues - none. Just keep it taught, keep the lap count low. The imaginary fears that some banter around are unsubstantiated wive's tales from the dark ages of the shaving news group.
I will agree that keeping the charged strop away from everything else is a good idea. Esp Crox in a water-based medium, stuff dries up into a fine powder that can get dust all over the place.

I read very early not to paste the cotton on a combination strop due to the cross contamination factor but until reading this I was planning to just have a cotton only pasted strop left hanging next to my others but if CrOx is really that messy I may want to rethink that and keep it in a totally different place away from my other strops.

 

[Gamma]

Depends on the product in question, some dry up and powder easily, some do not. Better to be safer than to gamble with contamination I think.

 

[ehehat]

Depends on the product in question, some dry up and powder easily, some do not. Better to be safer than to gamble with contamination I think.

completely agree. That's some sound advice. Thanks!

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Paste is just another tool.

Paste bleed through is not an issue. I strop on Pellon paper strops with different grits on each side. Never been an issue. Strops become contaminated by dust, long before (years) that could happen. Don’t over think it.

Different paste can produce different results. They will not destroy an edge, worst case with aggressive paste, the edge can become too thin. Joint the edge and reset the bevel in 10-20 laps on a high-grit finish stone and start over.

Clean, smooth cardboard is a good, cheap substrate for experimenting with paste. If you like the results, then buy or make a dedicated pasted strop, cotton or nylon strapping can be purchased from any fabric store for a few bucks. Both make excellent pasted strops substrates.

Powdered Chrome Oxide or over-pasted strops can be messy, with all paste, less is more. All you need is to paste 3-inch X’s on a clean strop substrate, more than enough paste that will last years.

Paste has been used on strops for razors for hundreds of years.

 

[Gamma]

completely agree. That's some sound advice. Thanks!

You’re welcome.

 

[David]

Thank you for the laugh.
In case that seller is a member here, I'll refrain from commenting further...
I would like to know how tape makes a bevel 'tight' though..
Sorry, momentary slip.... moving on now.... but what is a 'tight bevel' anyway? Lol... sorry, couldn't help it. Really moving on now.

Anyway, seems you have a plan to get the edge done. Probably needs work, given the

Backtracking though..

20/50 is NOT 'too much' stropping.

If an edge is falling off fast, it can be from a poorly done bevel, yes.
Three shaves in and needing a pasted strop speaks to a poorly done edge, or....
Could also be that your lather is off, your stropping isn't up to snuff, along with the bad bevel. Or one or all of the above.
Sometimes, it's more than just one thing. So check the entire process for possible weak points.

Abrasive compound on a hanging linen is actually quite a good idea, it's been done for centuries and it works fine. A textured fabric surface can be extremely efficacious. Almost any surface can work but some work better than others. I keep trying new substrates of all types for many years now and keep coming back to hanging fabric. Loom strops can be good too if the hide is on-point. I want to make a fabric loom strop someday actually. I have a blade going 3 years with a linen/paste strop maintenance, no bevel issues - none. Just keep it taught, keep the lap count low. The imaginary fears that some banter around are unsubstantiated wive's tales from the dark ages of the shaving news group.
I will agree that keeping the charged strop away from everything else is a good idea. Esp Crox in a water-based medium, stuff dries up into a fine powder that can get dust all over the place.

Depends on the product in question, some dry up and powder easily, some do not. Better to be safer than to gamble with contamination I think.

You’re welcome.

Three posts in one thread? Haven’t seen you do that in a while, Keith!

 

[JPO]

this razor was honed with the following progression with 3 layers of tape to protect the spine and to keep the bevel narrow and tight:

I assume you are not stropping with 3 layers of tape. If you are stropping with a reasonably taught strop, you might not be making contact with the whole bevel. 3 layers can add 2 to 3 deg on your bevel angle. One layer of tape should not be a problem.
Having a little play in the strop might help, but can also make things worse if it is not done right.

 

[Slash McCoy]

I assume you are not stropping with 3 layers of tape. If you are stropping with a reasonably taught strop, you might not be making contact with the whole bevel. 3 layers can add 2 to 3 deg on your bevel angle. One layer of tape should not be a problem.
Having a little play in the strop might help, but can also make things worse if it is not done right.

Bingo give the man a cigar. Went right over my head when I read the post, but yeah that is a very likely culprit.

 

[Gamma]

Three posts in one thread? Haven’t seen you do that in a while, Keith!

Yep - and now it's 4.
Typically, my limit is still 2 per thread though.
I don't want to make 5 though - so...

The increase in angle from 3 layers of tape would normally be absorbed by the slack in a hanging strop, even if pulled snug. I've honed my fair share of blades on multiple layers (3,4,5) quite a few times, it never caused me to add slack. If that was the issue, it would be noticed in 2 shaves, not 7, and not 'less sharp' but rather uselessly dull. Whatever, doesn't matter, the blades are getting honed i think, right?
While the sharpness falling off could very well include stropping concerns, I would bet a dollar that the bevel is not up to snuff. No big deal really, anyone can blow it, no one is perfect. Any edge-maker can have a bad day.
It's just a shame though, that the 'tight bevel' might actually be a little loose...
Sorry, couldn't help myself... ok, I'm really done now....

 

[ehehat]

Yep - and now it's 4.
Typically, my limit is still 2 per thread though.
I don't want to make 5 though - so...

The increase in angle from 3 layers of tape would normally be absorbed by the slack in a hanging strop, even if pulled snug. I've honed my fair share of blades on multiple layers (3,4,5) quite a few times, it never caused me to add slack. If that was the issue, it would be noticed in 2 shaves, not 7, and not 'less sharp' but rather uselessly dull. Whatever, doesn't matter, the blades are getting honed i think, right?
While the sharpness falling off could very well include stropping concerns, I would bet a dollar that the bevel is not up to snuff. No big deal really, anyone can blow it, no one is perfect. Any edge-maker can have a bad day.
It's just a shame though, that the 'tight bevel' might actually be a little loose...
Sorry, couldn't help myself... ok, I'm really done now....

Or don't be. I really appreciate your input, thanks! That being said, your comments do make sense to my very novice brain. I'm not pulling it super, super taught. there's definitely some play in it when I'm stropping.

And yes. They are being reviewed and honed now, hopefully today. H Brad said he'd have a look and let me know what he finds. early results are that there are some issues with the bevel and that there may have been dust on the strop as well. Hope to know more soon.

again, thanks to ALL of you!

 

[JPO]

Yep - and now it's 4.
Typically, my limit is still 2 per thread though.
I don't want to make 5 though - so...

The increase in angle from 3 layers of tape would normally be absorbed by the slack in a hanging strop, even if pulled snug. I've honed my fair share of blades on multiple layers (3,4,5) quite a few times, it never caused me to add slack. If that was the issue, it would be noticed in 2 shaves, not 7, and not 'less sharp' but rather uselessly dull. Whatever, doesn't matter, the blades are getting honed i think, right?
While the sharpness falling off could very well include stropping concerns, I would bet a dollar that the bevel is not up to snuff. No big deal really, anyone can blow it, no one is perfect. Any edge-maker can have a bad day.
It's just a shame though, that the 'tight bevel' might actually be a little loose...
Sorry, couldn't help myself... ok, I'm really done now....

This will depend on the stropping technique used. A 1 meter long strop that is allowed to sag 25 mm will create a effective angle change from the spine to the edge of 2.5-2.8 deg. This will be more then enough to hit the entire bevel plane, even if the razor have been honed with 3 layers of tape.
I think this is one reason it is common to fold over, or prematurely round the apex.
Soft leather will also round the apex just from compressing, so that will factor in as well.

On the other hand, if you create a anchor point on the stop with the spine, and control the bevel engagement on the strop by torqueing the blade, this will effectively reduce this effect by 50%. Stiffer leather makes this more difficult, because it will not conform the same way. When you get this right you can feel a change in the resistance on the strop as the edge progress. This is especially noticeable with more flexible "singing" razors (this is only my experience, and it also the reason i moved away from stiffer strops).

I watched allot of stropping videos when i got into this. You are told to hold the strop with a little play in it and use no pressure. As an engineer it made no sense to me. It still does not make any sense to me.
You need enough pressure to maintain an effective anchor point with your spine and the strop.
I think when i started out i would have been much better served by just using my strop on a hard backed surface, instead of trying to act as a barber from the good old days.

 

[Gamma]

Rounding the apex on a strop is more of an old wive's tale than a reality. Not saying it never happened but for the most part it doesn't. Lotsa forum gurus rail on and on about it but after more than a decade of being involved with waaaaay too many newcomers to count, with certainty it's actually not a common thing at all. I have actually never scoped a blade to see a 'rolled' edge and more than a few have been sent to me for inspection. Under-stropping is more prevalent, either not enough laps or being too scared to use even slight pressure and not getting the blade on the hide well enough. Yes, not enough pressure.

For tension...I've watched many old time barbers work a blade, the curvature is nuts and the blades come out wicked keen. Done it myself and it works, well actually, but I prefer a lighter touch. There's a well known YT vid of an old-school midwest barber using a very heavy hand on the strop, like crazy curvature, and with success. Yet most forum guys would say he's killing his apex...whatever...

Having put more than enough 3,4 and 5 tape-layer blades on strops, I can say with certainty that most people will hit the blade just fine on their strops and for someone to not get the job done would require more effort in the other direction, like literally trying to not get the blade stropped. I learned to hone with basket-case wedges, used more than my fair share of tape and multiple layer events were a daily event. Can I miss the edge with a heavily taped blade on a strop? Probably, if I work at failing, and that never happened. And I can miss with a non-taped edge easily with a dainty touch. These things reveal their liabilities day one though, not day 7.

In a practical sense, 3 layers of tape can possibly add 3 degrees of angle but most of the time the finished product isn't 3 degrees over the starting angle. It might be, but usually isn't IME. So I've found that projecting outcomes based on what might be possible, as opposed to what it actually is, - can lead to inaccurate assumptions. Math is fun but sometimes the numbers don't include what really happens. Most people don't mic the taped dimension after they finish. Some dont' change with every grit hop. Lots of stuff going on out there, that simple math can't account for.
And, the leather itself, even on a flat substrate, will absorb a lot and even a 2 layer edge can get a hit on a paddle strop most of the time. Maybe not with Kangaroo though...depends...anyway....

Biggest issue with more than 2 layers of tape is the compression, and it being uneven and inconsistent from application to application. Very difficult to maintain repeatability under those conditions. Especially when rushing and I am sure Mr fleabay honer wasn't finessing his work that day. And we really don't know for sure that the edge-maker in question actually followed his boilerplate description, since it's just another ebay listing. By the OP's initial description, if he was accurate, the issue lies in what is most probably half-baked bevels. Super common amongst 'pros' lurking on auction sites. They cut corners at every turn to make their $$/hr numbers soar. Maybe the OP's stropping needs work too, most new guys can improve there. But I see the devil is in those bevels. At any rate, they'll get honed, hopefully correctly, and everyone can live happily ever after.

And now for sure I'm out, there's really nothing left to be said here - best of luck to the OP.
Maybe an infamous vendor will screen shot this thread and put it on his YT - then we'll all be famous! Lol...

 

[Calou]

How happy am I not using leather straps but palm strops.
This is all too complicated for me.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

Under-stropping is more prevalent, either not enough laps or being too scared to use even slight pressure and not getting the blade on the hide well enough. Yes, not enough pressure.

I know you're not a fan of the HHT, but I found it very useful in proof-testing my stropping. Because, as you say, I wasn't hitting the whole edge consistently early on. I actually think that some of the general advice to avoid any deflection in the strop contributes to this. Once I figured out that deflection is fine, as long as it's around the spine, not the edge, I started getting a lot better results stropping.

 

[RumpleBearskin]

I use "too much pressure" in both my stropping and electric toothbrush use. Works for me though.