Do I just suck at stropping?

[ehehat]

I'll be the first to admit I have a ton of practice to do at it but my shaves tell me stropping is doing nothing to help the blade edge and might even be messing it up more.

I strop before and after every shave. 20 laps on cotton and 50 on leather. I haven't (yet) nicked anything and I definitely haven't rolled an edge by clipping either end of the strop. Also I am going super, super slow. I have my strop anchored right about belt buckle height, holding it taught but don't think overly tight pretty much even with the ground. My stropping motion feels good and the resistance/sound I get seems to me to be consistent going both up and back. Also I'm putting very little to no pressure on the blade. At least I don't think I am.

It "feels" like I'm doing everything right but after only about 6/7 shaves in the blade is clearly not cutting as well as it did in my first 2-3 shaves. I have a cotton-only strop that I plan to coat with CrOx but after that few shaves it seems way premature to need to do that. Is that normal? I consider trying to get a short video or something to post for review but with all the how-to videos I've watched I just don't see that I'm doing anything any different.

 

[pwheeler]

I am no expert on stropping, but, for me and what I've read, that may be too much stropping. I do 10 laps on linen after a shave, then 15 to 20 on leather prior to my next shave. That's it.

 

[Lightcs1776]

I suspect that stropping may not be the issue. I agree with Pwheeler, but I have used a razor that was straight from a well known and well regarded razor restoration individual and it shaved OK, but not great. The better I became with my technique, the better it shaved. I have a rather tough beard, so I realize that comes into play as well.

 

[SparkyLB]

I only strop with linen to completely dry the blade, and remove any traces of "human dander," and soap flakes after each shave. Before each shave, I tend not to count strokes, but I'd estimate it at about 20 round trips only on leather.

I only know:
1. In your description, your stropping session sounds well within satisfactory; and
2. When my newly honed blade provides a DFS, I can get by with only stropping on leather (sometimes) 2 months or more before the blade needs to again touch a stone.

In my case, stropping improves my edge. Since it's not doing so for yours, the only two possibilities, it seems, is that your edge wasn't what you thought it was pre-shave, or your stropping technique needs some improvement.

I've been at this for maybe 8 months, and it took me a great deal of time before I could improve/maintain a blade with only leather.

Last thought, I'd refrain from the CrOx until you can improve a blade with leather only.


Keep trying. You'll get it. I think we all do.

 

[ehehat]

I suspect that stropping may not be the issue. I agree with Pwheeler, but I have used a razor that was straight from a well known and well regarded razor restoration individual and it shaved OK, but not great. The better I became with my technique, the better it shaved. I have a rather tough beard, so I realize that comes into play as well.

That was a thought I had as well. Maybe it really wasn't shave ready when I got it but the first couple shaves sure felt like it was. Could that be a bad bevel that's just going dull too quickly?

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“Maybe it really wasn't shave ready when I got it but the first couple shaves sure felt like it was. Could that be a bad bevel that's just going dull too quickly?”

Stropping can be difficult to master, because it only takes one errant lap to damage or ruin an edge. It can take a while to perfect all your laps or at least do no harm.

Stropping can improve a good edge, but not so much for a weak or bad edge. If you bought a “new” razor and did not pay for “shave ready honing” chances are, it was not.

The quality/ cleanliness of your linen/ leather will affect results. Stropping stresses the edge, the goal is to clean and straighten the super thin cutting fin. If the steel is weak or not properly and fully honed, this flexing can break off pieces of the super thin edge.

So, while the stropping can cause the edge to fail, it is not the faut of stropping, it was not properly honed. A proper honing progression or technique will refine the edge and build a strong edge, then stropping can improve it.

Many folk turn to paste, and aggressive paste can polish an edge, but if the edge was not properly honed, it will be weak. You may get a few good shaves, but the edge fails quickly, (that flexing again).

Maintaining a straight razor is a process of eliminating as many variables as possible and systematically build a strong, keen edge. Start with a known shave ready edge and learn to maintain it. Otherwise, you are groping in the dark, thinking you know what shave ready is. You can, and many do just learn by doing, but it is a long and windy road.

If you want to experiment with paste, paste a piece of cardboard, inside of a cereal box on the edge of a bench. If you paste your linen, it can never be removed fully, and if you linen is not clean, you results will be skewed.

 

[ehehat]

“Maybe it really wasn't shave ready when I got it but the first couple shaves sure felt like it was. Could that be a bad bevel that's just going dull too quickly?”

Stropping can be difficult to master, because it only takes one errant lap to damage or ruin an edge. It can take a while to perfect all your laps or at least do no harm.

Stropping can improve a good edge, but not so much for a weak or bad edge. If you bought a “new” razor and did not pay for “shave ready honing” chances are, it was not.

The quality/ cleanliness of your linen/ leather will affect results. Stropping stresses the edge, the goal is to clean and straighten the super thin cutting fin. If the steel is weak or not properly and fully honed, this flexing can break off pieces of the super thin edge.

So, while the stropping can cause the edge to fail, it is not the faut of stropping, it was not properly honed. A proper honing progression or technique will refine the edge and build a strong edge, then stropping can improve it.

Many folk turn to paste, and aggressive paste can polish an edge, but if the edge was not properly honed, it will be weak. You may get a few good shaves, but the edge fails quickly, (that flexing again).

Maintaining a straight razor is a process of eliminating as many variables as possible and systematically build a strong, keen edge. Start with a known shave ready edge and learn to maintain it. Otherwise, you are groping in the dark, thinking you know what shave ready is. You can, and many do just learn by doing, but it is a long and windy road.

If you want to experiment with paste, paste a piece of cardboard, inside of a cereal box on the edge of a bench. If you paste your linen, it can never be removed fully, and if you linen is not clean, you results will be skewed.

I'm actually really glad you specifically responded. I was looking at the honemeister list and you came up as being very close to me (if you're still where your profile says you are) and my plan had always been to contact you when the time came for a good honing. I'm in Costa Mesa/Anaheim. I'll hit you up in DM.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Keep the CrOx well away from your strop. You don't want to risk contaminating your main strop.

I would wait a few more shaves before messing with any paste. You can either improve your edge, or make it worse, with abrasives. Better to be sure you have developed your skills a bit more, before messing with that stuff.

Cereal box, as H. Brad suggested, is much to be preferred over the linen component attached to your main strop. Hanging strop with paste is IMHO not a good idea. You get better results from a flat and firm surface, when abrasives are involved.

You can get a piece of 1" to 1-1/2" thick cast acrylic sheet, cut to 3" x 12", from TAP Plastics for under $20, and glue a 3 x 12 piece of 1/4" thick balsa to that, then lap it on 320 grit sandpaper stuck to a very flat surface, and then you will have the Cadillac of bench strops for use with abrasive paste. CrOx is much inferior to diamond, but to get best results with diamond paste you need a progression of .5µ, .25µ, and .1µ paste. With CrOx, first of all not so critical, and second, there is only one grit size, anyway, call it .5µ or .3µ either one, it is the same because the grading is not very precise. So if you want to just dabble with paste and maybe tune up your edge slightly, okay, CrOx has been used. It has even been used by me, and now I do not use it, if that tells you anything. You COULD follow the CrOx with red FeOx if you use a lot of laps on the red. I have done that, too, and results paled next to diamond, but it wasn't too bad. So if you do that, you need two setups. Be careful not to put too much. If it looks like you barely have enough, you actually have about 3x too much! It should look like you don't have nearly enough. Rub it in good. Then, rub it down with an old Tshirt to remove any abrasive that is just rolling around on the surface. You do not want the "slurry effect" from a coating of paste. You want the paste buried in the balsa, not coating it.

How To Use a Pasted Balsa Strop | Badger & Blade

Pasted balsa works best on an edge that is already sharp. It is not good for making an edge sharp. It is good for making a sharp edge, sharper. So to have any noticeable effect on your dulled razor, you need lots of laps. Don't use any pressure. You won't like the edge, trust me. Lots of laps, very light pressure, and hold your balsa in hand, not resting on a bench or other fixed object.

Read the thread linked above, if you really want to do this.

Your BEST course of action is to send your razor out for honing. Be sure you use someone from the straight razor community. Never trust someone who does not shave with a straight razor to hone your straight razor, or you will be sorry.

Does it REALLY need to be sent out? Yeah, sounds like it. But here is a test you can perform. It is not the last word. There is a great deal of subjectivity, and variation in hair texture and technique, but it will tell you something. The shave test is of course the ultimate test of a razor's edge, but if you are not yet a very competent shaver, then the shave test isn't going to be very conclusive. So before you pack it up and send it off, have a go at testing your edge. You can also look up the HHT, or Hanging Hair Test, another popular test.

 

[RumpleBearskin]

I'd agree that you stropping technique sounds good from your description, but if it's not helping (maintaining) your edge then either it isn't as good as you think, or the edge isn't as good as you think.

6-7 shaves before the edge degrades is not enough.

Effective stropping is a learned skill and takes practice. So you may need to refresh the edge more often as you learn to strop.

But ... All of that assumes you have a good edge to start with. You don't mention what razor, how it was honed, or what you've done (if anything) after the 6-7 shaves. My suggestion is to send it out for a good honing so you have a good point for comparison. Many members here on B&B offer their services. (If you get stuck you can even DM me.)

Oh, I'll also echo the admonition to stay away from abrasive paste for now (unless you want to go the diamond pasted balsa route). Keep your leather clean.

 

[duke762]

I posted over in the honing section about my edges not lasting very long a while back....a lot like you describe. It turned out that I had just started honing with water stones and had treated my 8 and 12k like an Arkansas stone and did way too many laps on them before going to the Arks to finish. Gave me a weak edge...a foil or fin edge. Shaved like the dickens for 5 to 7 shaves and fell off real quick afterwards and stropping wouldn't bring it back. Just something to keep in mind, your stropping sounds spot on.

 

[ehehat]

Thank you all, this is really good advice. A little more info...

I have a dedicated cotton strop I planned to use with CrOx. As had been advised to me earlier, I was not going to use my main strop for this and if I was going to use different pastes I was going to use a different dedicated strop for each one to avoid bleed through but using a harder surface seems wiser for now.

I got both razors from eBay from a guy that calls himself "Davidwork2003". He posted his honing method as follows:

"this razor was honed with the following progression with 3 layers of tape to protect the spine and to keep the bevel narrow and tight:

Shapton Kuromaku Ceramic 2k
Shapton Kuromaku Ceramic 5k
Seuhiro Kouseki
Nakayama
Vintage Scottish Linen Fire Hose Strop
Tony Miller Rough Out Strop
Tony Miller Fast Bridle Strop"

Not sure if anyone has experience with him or not but he sounded like he knew what he was talking about and has 100% positive reviews. I wasn't too sure about the 3 layers of tape, seems excessive but I guess we'll find out.

@Slash McCoy would I use the 320 grit and THEN put diamond paste on it? I would have thought one or the other. 320 grit seems pretty coarse. I guess instead of asking I should read the actual thread first lol. Thanks for the direction to TAP Plastics, I will check them out. Any advice on finding good balsa?

I'm sending both razors to H Brad Boonshaft to check out and, if needed (probably will) hone. He's local and on the Honemeister list and has been super helpful.

Again guys, thanks so much. When you're actually open to get help, this community rocks!

 

[ehehat]

@Slash McCoy would I use the 320 grit and THEN put diamond paste on it? I would have thought one or the other. 320 grit seems pretty coarse. I guess instead of asking I should read the actual thread first lol. Thanks for the direction to TAP Plastics, I will check them out. Any advice on finding good balsa?

@Slash McCoy Forget I said this, lol. 320 grit is for lapping the balsa. Got it.

 

[RayClem]

Stropping cannot make an edge sharper. It only removes any burrs, cleans and straightens the edge.
If you have ever tried to do a hanging hair test or arm hair test on an edge off the finishing hone without stropping, you will find that it will usually fail every time as the hone leaves a micro-burr. The strop removes that burr and makes the edge much sharper.

I do not think there is anything as too much stropping as long as your technique is good. However, each added stroke definitely has reduced effectiveness. I normally do about 60 strokes on fabric and 100 on leather as I enjoy the process.

If your beard is coarse, getting 5-7 shaves might be as good as you can get before refreshing the edge. However, some people can extend the life of an edge almost indefinitely using a series of pasted strops as the ultra fine abrasives do sharpen the edge.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

Stropping cannot make an edge sharper.

The strop removes that burr and makes the edge much sharper.

...

 

[RayClem]

...

I guess the correct expression is that stropping makes the edge FEEL much sharper, but that is just because a burr has been removed. If you start shaving with the edge without stropping, the initial contact with your skin might feel a little harsh; but your skin is similar to leather and will soon remove the microburr.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Thank you all, this is really good advice. A little more info...

I have a dedicated cotton strop I planned to use with CrOx. As had been advised to me earlier, I was not going to use my main strop for this and if I was going to use different pastes I was going to use a different dedicated strop for each one to avoid bleed through but using a harder surface seems wiser for now.

I got both razors from eBay from a guy that calls himself "Davidwork2003". He posted his honing method as follows:

"this razor was honed with the following progression with 3 layers of tape to protect the spine and to keep the bevel narrow and tight:

Shapton Kuromaku Ceramic 2k
Shapton Kuromaku Ceramic 5k
Seuhiro Kouseki
Nakayama
Vintage Scottish Linen Fire Hose Strop
Tony Miller Rough Out Strop
Tony Miller Fast Bridle Strop"

Not sure if anyone has experience with him or not but he sounded like he knew what he was talking about and has 100% positive reviews. I wasn't too sure about the 3 layers of tape, seems excessive but I guess we'll find out.

@Slash McCoy would I use the 320 grit and THEN put diamond paste on it? I would have thought one or the other. 320 grit seems pretty coarse. I guess instead of asking I should read the actual thread first lol. Thanks for the direction to TAP Plastics, I will check them out. Any advice on finding good balsa?

I'm sending both razors to H Brad Boonshaft to check out and, if needed (probably will) hone. He's local and on the Honemeister list and has been super helpful.

Again guys, thanks so much. When you're actually open to get help, this community rocks!

Wow, three layers of tape? Too compressible! Plus, with most razors, that would immediately make the actual honed bevel angle very very obtuse. "Saving the spine" should not be the objective, anyway. Getting a good edge is. But if having an unblemished spine is more important than the best edge possible, then a single layer of tape would be sufficient. If three layers are needed to make the bevel angle not be too acute, then the fault is in the design of the razor. Anyway, your honemeister will sort out the bevel angle issue, I am sure.

<EDIT> Oh, and for balsa, Hobby Lobby, etc are fine. Much better to buy at a brick and mortar hobby shops, if possible, than online, so you can see the product and see that it is undamaged. Cheapest and easiest to buy in 36" long planks, 3" wide x 1/4" thick. You can use 1/8" thick even, but then you have fewer times you can re-lap before replacing the balsa. Even 1/16" will work, but you can only relap a couple of times, I would think. Thicker than say 1/4" is not good because more thickness will allow more swelling and shrinking, which will not necessarily occur evenly. The acrylic base will prevent warping and twisting, but not uneven swelling and shrinking.

TechDiamondTools is a good vendor for diamond paste but honestly I have never bought any diamond paste (knock on wood) that wouldn't perform adequately, even on fleabay. The .1µ is the grit you will use the most of. I hit my .1 balsa after every shave.

 

[SparkyLB]

I bought some Kapton tape to preserve the edge of my new (when it was) Dovo Bergischer Lowe so it always looked like it had the "just out of the box" look. I decided right there that no tape (for me, at least) is the way to go. It shaved just fine with the tape. Shaves a lot better without. YMMV, void where prohibited, professional drivers on closed course. Do not attempt.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Get one of your razors honed by a well-respected honer. @Doc226 is an excellent honer.

When I started, I used diamond paste on balsa to achieve sharp edges. Over time, I learned to hone, starting with a Naniwa 12k synthetic. At first I needed to refresh my edges every 3 to 5 shaves. Over time, my edges improved and now require less frequent touch-ups - and my edges are way sharper. Just takes practice.

If your edge does not pass HHT, it is likely that the edge can be improved.

Stropping makes a difference. After each shave, I do about 25 laps on linen, and then about 50 laps on leather before the next shave.

Everyone is different. My stropping light bulb moment came while watching this video by Alfredo when I realized that I was lifting the spine off of the leather:

 

[Seelector]

This thread gives me hope that eventually I’ll be able to go longer between edge refreshes.

I get about 5 shaves max maintaining on linen and leather only before I have to touch up on film or pasted balsa. My film edges last longer than a balsa edge, so I think the balsa edge is just too delicate for my beard/stropping/shaving technique.

My stropping has improved but I know my film edges can get better. I think people (ie me) rely on pasted balsa to mask substandard honing, which leads to a weak/foil edge.

 

[Kyle89]

My edges and stropping in the beginning weren't all that great and had to refresh a lot more frequently.

It gets better with time. Keep going.