Marty said... "excessive pressure will flex the blade and cause the back of the bevel to act as a fulcrum and lift the edge off the stone".
This is a major issue with most new honers.
This is a major issue with most new honers.
Bevel Setting Troubles
- Thread starter Timeclo
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- #22
So I added one layer of tape to the Black Jack razor and honed on the Shapton 1.5k
Definite improvement. I also noticed a difference in feedback. It felt like more of the edge was touching compared to without the tape. Maybe the top of the bevel was not touching the stone but I did not see it under the loupe. Or maybe altering the bevel angle made some difference.
Anyhow, I think the bevel is set and maybe maxxed out. I still notice a slight hesitation in cutting but a lot better than before. I think I'll take it upto 12k and give it a shave, see how it goes.
I also added a layer of tape to the Geneva and will be honing on it later tonight. Thanks for the tips ya'll.
Definite improvement. I also noticed a difference in feedback. It felt like more of the edge was touching compared to without the tape. Maybe the top of the bevel was not touching the stone but I did not see it under the loupe. Or maybe altering the bevel angle made some difference.
Anyhow, I think the bevel is set and maybe maxxed out. I still notice a slight hesitation in cutting but a lot better than before. I think I'll take it upto 12k and give it a shave, see how it goes.
I also added a layer of tape to the Geneva and will be honing on it later tonight. Thanks for the tips ya'll.
I do think sooner or later you might benefit immensely from having at least one barber sized Japanese natural stone. The Shapton stone system is a phenomenal setup to have but there are those razors that do in fact seem to finish out much better on natural stones for some reason. Arkansas stones are also another fine option that you already have but yet again it can often be razor contingent.
I’m not suggesting a Japanese stone so that you can be yet another person on the forum with such an item but rather I think they are indispensable tools and cover a fairly wide range of steel types.
I’m not suggesting a Japanese stone so that you can be yet another person on the forum with such an item but rather I think they are indispensable tools and cover a fairly wide range of steel types.
Just remember that the bevel is from the apex to the end of the hone wear on the spine. All the corrections in the geometry should include the spine.
Taping the spine before the bevel is set is like correcting the undercarriage of a car, while only being allowed to adjust the front.
After the bevel is set you can add tape to close the apex and finalise the lower part of the bevel. It does not take much.
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- #25
Thanks, I will consider it if I see one for a good deal out there. For now, I'm trying to get the basics down with the synths and finishing with the Ark. I feel that if I don't get the synths down, the Jnats won't be much of a help.
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- #26
I don’t disagree with you at all and I do realize that this thread is actually about setting a bevel rather than finishing. It can really be a little tricky to distinguish between an edge that just isn’t quite done versus one of those 98% bevels…
You are missing the point about the heel. The heel corner needs correction to move it away from the stabilizer and the notch in the spine. If you hone inside the notch or the taper, (where the top of the belly grin tapers towards the edge) it will have a very different bevel than if you hone over the notch.
The heel corner is sharp and will get more pointed as you continue to hone with pressure and low grits, trying to force the heel on the stone.
Correct the heel and move it about a ¼ inch from the stabilizer and the notch so the razor will sit flat on the hone. It just takes a few minutes.
"Anyhow, I think the bevel is set and maybe maxxed out. I still notice a slight hesitation in cutting but a lot better than before."
If your edge hesitates to cut hair, that is a failed test.
This is a fully set bevel at 1k. If your bevel does not look like this and the bevels are meeting fully, when you look straight down on the edge, you do not see any shiny reflections.
I doubt your bevels are maxed out.
The heel corner is sharp and will get more pointed as you continue to hone with pressure and low grits, trying to force the heel on the stone.
Correct the heel and move it about a ¼ inch from the stabilizer and the notch so the razor will sit flat on the hone. It just takes a few minutes.
"Anyhow, I think the bevel is set and maybe maxxed out. I still notice a slight hesitation in cutting but a lot better than before."
If your edge hesitates to cut hair, that is a failed test.
This is a fully set bevel at 1k. If your bevel does not look like this and the bevels are meeting fully, when you look straight down on the edge, you do not see any shiny reflections.
I doubt your bevels are maxed out.
The second pic shows the dreaded shiny spots. Not fully set bevel.
Remember that when adding tape you are adding to the thickness of the spine. Most folks will use scotch 88 or scotch 7mil. Both electrical tape. Another tape to use is Kapton tape. It's thinner and much stronger. Electrical tape will wear thinner if you're using pressure so it's best to change the tape often. When you think your bevel is set change your tape and do some more laps. This way your finishing with that stone on a solid piece of tape and not a piece half worn through. And change with every stone change is best when starting out and you will use too much pressure and wear through it. It just happens.
Remember that when adding tape you are adding to the thickness of the spine. Most folks will use scotch 88 or scotch 7mil. Both electrical tape. Another tape to use is Kapton tape. It's thinner and much stronger. Electrical tape will wear thinner if you're using pressure so it's best to change the tape often. When you think your bevel is set change your tape and do some more laps. This way your finishing with that stone on a solid piece of tape and not a piece half worn through. And change with every stone change is best when starting out and you will use too much pressure and wear through it. It just happens.
I’ve also been having some trouble getting a bevel fully set from the heel to about 1/4 distance to the toe on both sides.
I’m not honing on the stabilizer, but am I getting too close to it? The heel had a bit of a point which I removed, but do I need to do a full correction on this blade?
I’m not honing on the stabilizer, but am I getting too close to it? The heel had a bit of a point which I removed, but do I need to do a full correction on this blade?
Setting bevels takes practice. Based on my experience, I would get yourself a roll of 3M Scotch Super 88 tape, a loupe (I like the Belomo 10x Triplet) and a container of cherry tomatoes, and then focus on the following:
Kill the edge on a glass cup or bottle.
Using your 1 or 1.5k, hone until the entire edge easily slices a cherry tomato.
Constantly watch your progress using your loupe. You should be able to see the apex/bevel form.
Pay attention to how much pressure and torque you are applying, starting with firm pressure. Try to image using enough pressure so the entire edge makes contact but no more.
Pay attention to how the pressure is distributed. When I started, I applied more pressure to the spine than the edge. This did not work. Once I learned how to apply more pressure to the edge, I began to make progress.
If the formation of the bevel lags on parts of the edge, try to use pressure to finesse the portions of the edge that are lagging to make stronger contact.
Optionally, use one layer of tape to protect the spine.
Again, use your loupe to gauge your progress. You should be able to see where you are making and not making progress.
Kill the edge on a glass cup or bottle.
Using your 1 or 1.5k, hone until the entire edge easily slices a cherry tomato.
Constantly watch your progress using your loupe. You should be able to see the apex/bevel form.
Pay attention to how much pressure and torque you are applying, starting with firm pressure. Try to image using enough pressure so the entire edge makes contact but no more.
Pay attention to how the pressure is distributed. When I started, I applied more pressure to the spine than the edge. This did not work. Once I learned how to apply more pressure to the edge, I began to make progress.
If the formation of the bevel lags on parts of the edge, try to use pressure to finesse the portions of the edge that are lagging to make stronger contact.
Optionally, use one layer of tape to protect the spine.
Again, use your loupe to gauge your progress. You should be able to see where you are making and not making progress.
“I’m not honing on the stabilizer, but am I getting too close to it? The heel had a bit of a point which I removed, but do I need to do a full correction on this blade?”
No, no full correction needed.
With heel corners there are two common issues, honing on stabilizers where the heel corners are too close to the stabilizer and lift the heel half of the razor off the stone, a very common problem.
And another issue, that this razor has,(as do many Chinese razors).
Note the top of the belly grind where it meets the spine, is straight until it gets near the tang and it tapers from straight to almost a 30 degree angle, for about 10-12 mm. (Red Arrow)
If you hone on the angled part of the spine/top of the belly grind, (Red Line, where current heel corner is, it will hone a bevel angle very different from one honed on the straight part. (to the right of the Blue Line)
See for yourself, lay the razor on the stone with the flat part of the grind and bevel on the stone, you may need to hang the heel end off the stone. Now slide the razor onto the stone onto the angled part of the spine and likely it will not sit flat on the stone with the spine and the edge fully flat on the stone.
The fix is simple, bring the heel corner forward even more, so that you will only hon on the straight part of the spine and top of belly grind, (to the right of the blue line.
The rest of the spine grind looks straight as does the bevel, so it should not take much, a rolling X stroke and some tape, to get the whole edge honed. A layer or two of tape will increase the bevel angle and preserve spine thickness.
No, no full correction needed.
With heel corners there are two common issues, honing on stabilizers where the heel corners are too close to the stabilizer and lift the heel half of the razor off the stone, a very common problem.
And another issue, that this razor has,(as do many Chinese razors).
Note the top of the belly grind where it meets the spine, is straight until it gets near the tang and it tapers from straight to almost a 30 degree angle, for about 10-12 mm. (Red Arrow)
If you hone on the angled part of the spine/top of the belly grind, (Red Line, where current heel corner is, it will hone a bevel angle very different from one honed on the straight part. (to the right of the Blue Line)
See for yourself, lay the razor on the stone with the flat part of the grind and bevel on the stone, you may need to hang the heel end off the stone. Now slide the razor onto the stone onto the angled part of the spine and likely it will not sit flat on the stone with the spine and the edge fully flat on the stone.
The fix is simple, bring the heel corner forward even more, so that you will only hon on the straight part of the spine and top of belly grind, (to the right of the blue line.
The rest of the spine grind looks straight as does the bevel, so it should not take much, a rolling X stroke and some tape, to get the whole edge honed. A layer or two of tape will increase the bevel angle and preserve spine thickness.
It is hard to know from just looking at a photo, but it looks to me like there is a very slight frown whose center is about 1/3 from the heel. This could explain why you are having trouble making contact with a portion of the edge.
I brought the heel forward and it helped a lot. With a rolling x stroke I'm getting full contact heel to toe on one side, and on the other side there is a small spot at the heel getting marginal contact. I may bring the heel forward a little more.
@Calou that part of the bevel has always been narrow. They didn't do the best grinding job with this blade. The bevel angle with tape is 19.3° and 18.0° without it. After bringing the heel forward I honed with tape.
@Frank Shaves Yes there may be a slight frown there. I will have a better look tonight after work.
@Calou that part of the bevel has always been narrow. They didn't do the best grinding job with this blade. The bevel angle with tape is 19.3° and 18.0° without it. After bringing the heel forward I honed with tape.
@Frank Shaves Yes there may be a slight frown there. I will have a better look tonight after work.
Can you expand on this a bit Frank? For the spot on the heel that's still making marginal contact, I've been starting my stroke with pressure on the heel and the toe slightly off the hone.
You do not need to add any tape if the bevel is properly set. However, if the bevel angle gets too acute, adding a layer of tape might help to close the apex and create a more durable edge. From the look of some of your razors the hone wear on the spine might indicate a too acute bevel angle. The spine is just as much part of the bevel as the lower part. Therefore they need to be threated as one.
I think the point was that the most important part of correction the bevel is to align the spine with to lower part of the bevel to create to planes that meets.
Then you refine the bevel. You need to make sure that your striations go all the way to the edge. Your final edge is going to be located a distance from your jagged coarse edge. So testing how this cuts can be a little misleading. You can even lightly joint the edge after your bevel set and bring it back on your next stone in your progression in a short while (might not be recommended at this stage). The goal is just to create two intersecting planes. What is often referred to as resetting the bevel is just more a refinement of the bevel, working on a previously corrected geometry.
Yes, the edge has a slight frown in the middle. The frown was caused by the heel. "The heel had a bit of a point which I removed, but do I need to do a full correction on this blade?”
The heel was pointed because it had been honed with pressure to try to force the heel on to the stone, but the middle was making full contact and that is where the steel was removed.
When razors do not sit flat on the stone and you add pressure to try to force an area to make contact, you add pressure to the whole blade and areas that do sit flat on the stone abrade faster. Look at the ink on the face side.
Moving the heel forward will take the curved spine out of play and allow the razor to sit flat on the stone, some heel forward laps will get the heel honed and remove the frown, especially if the honer drops the heel off the stone in the first inch of travel with his X stroke.
The X stroke does not need to be from corner to corner, but only a slight curve almost like an inverted J, so the heel stays on the stone at least halfway down the stone.
If the heel is not on the stone, it can’t get honed.
The heel was pointed because it had been honed with pressure to try to force the heel on to the stone, but the middle was making full contact and that is where the steel was removed.
When razors do not sit flat on the stone and you add pressure to try to force an area to make contact, you add pressure to the whole blade and areas that do sit flat on the stone abrade faster. Look at the ink on the face side.
Moving the heel forward will take the curved spine out of play and allow the razor to sit flat on the stone, some heel forward laps will get the heel honed and remove the frown, especially if the honer drops the heel off the stone in the first inch of travel with his X stroke.
The X stroke does not need to be from corner to corner, but only a slight curve almost like an inverted J, so the heel stays on the stone at least halfway down the stone.
If the heel is not on the stone, it can’t get honed.
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The purpose of inking the bevels is so you can read the ink and see where the blade is making contact, AND where it is not.
Look at this razor on the face side, note all the missing ink and wide bevel in the middle of the blade.
Now look at the back side. note full contact at the heel corner and very little almost no ink from the middle and toe half of the blade.
The heel is making full contact and keeping the toe half of the edge off the stone, likely because of the wonky grind of the spine that is changing the bevel angle depending on what part of the spine is on the stone, and it has a slight warp, nothing a rolling X won’t fix.
We often talk about inking the bevels, but do not discuss how to read the bevels and more importantly how to correct an issue that you see.
More laps, lower grits and more pressure are never the answer.
Look at this razor on the face side, note all the missing ink and wide bevel in the middle of the blade.
Now look at the back side. note full contact at the heel corner and very little almost no ink from the middle and toe half of the blade.
The heel is making full contact and keeping the toe half of the edge off the stone, likely because of the wonky grind of the spine that is changing the bevel angle depending on what part of the spine is on the stone, and it has a slight warp, nothing a rolling X won’t fix.
We often talk about inking the bevels, but do not discuss how to read the bevels and more importantly how to correct an issue that you see.
More laps, lower grits and more pressure are never the answer.
On a modern razor (not an old Sheffield wedge with a smile), the goal is for the entire edge to make contact with the stone. Sometimes this is just not possible and you need to vary the amount of pressure through your x-stroke to reach the last few mm at the heel and toe. In some cases, you need to raise/lower the toe/heel to achieve this. This is what people call a rolling x-stroke.
My advice is to first try just rolling the pressure and not raise the toe or heel off of the stone. If this is not sufficient, then try raising/lowering the toe/heel only slightly using very little pressure to test the waters, constantly using your loupe to check your work. If you see a hurricane of black swarth, stop and reassess. And, remember, that you can remove metal but not put metal back.
Rolling x-strokes take practice, so be patient. It may also help to watch a few videos. Here's a good one:
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
I am a proponent of the burr method and I use it quite a lot. However, if you have been working at a razor for a while, I don't think you have a lot of steel left to remove. Where the burr method really shines is when there is a lot of heavy lifting to do. Regardless, concentrate on only one razor for now.
Do you have a very bright work light? You need a single point of overpoweringly bright light when you are first learning to read the bevel, so you get a bright, sharp reflection where there is something to reflect from. You also need a good loupe or a very strong magnifying glass. There is no better loupe than the Belomo 10x Triplet. For razors, it is ideal, because the loupe does not have to be close enough to accidentally contact the edge of the razor. You may also find that a cheap USB microscope can be useful. 100x is a good magnification level. The advantage of a USB microscope is you can share pics of your bevel. You should also have a sharpie marker for painting the bevel. Cover the bevel faces with ink, let it dry a minute, and take a couple of strokes on stone or film and see where the ink remains. Where it remains, you did not make contact with the hone.
When you roll the razor in the light, with your loupe you want to see a brignt line reflecting off the bevel face, quickly shift across the bevel and off the edge with no little sparkles of reflection at the edge, an invisible edge when it is turned fully up, and a resumption of the strong reflection flashing across the other side bevel.
Back to the sharpie test. A common issue is a thick heel or a thickening due to the edge wearing back until the stabilizer becomes a problem. This will manifest itself in an inability to make contact with the bevel NEAR the heel, with a normal honing stroke. The cure for this has been discussed on this and other forums quite a bit, and is to trim the heel and essentially eliminate that final tail end part of the edge along with the offending heel and stabilizer swell. The usual way is to use a quarter or nickel as a template to draw a curve with a sharpie. Take a coarse diamond plate like what you get from Harbor Freight, and work the heel down into the line you drew. Stand the razor up at about a 45 degree angle and use a sweeping motion. Those HF diamond plates are very cheap and while they are not very flat and are not of high quality, are excellent for this type of work. You can also use the side of a coarse hone but I prefer not to gouge up any surface of my stones. Myself, I often use a belt sander for this but I don't recommend that, your first time at bat.
Slurry raised from the stone while setting a bevel helps to speed up the process. However, it does place limits on how sharp the edge is, right off the bevel setter. Try rinsing the slurry off the stone when you think you got the bevel set, and then do some more laps under running water.
I know you have heard this over and over, but the bevel is not set until it is proven to be set. Prove it, by sight, by sharpie test, and by the usual sharpness tests. The biggest advantage of the burr method is that it provides its own proof, by the existence of a full length burr on each side in turn. However, I cannot stress enough the necessity of doing a thorough cleanup of the edge, once the burr has been raised on each side in turn. If you still have a burr, you don't have a good bevel. A good cleanup uses diminishing pressure so as not to simply maintain the burr and shift it side to side, making and breaking off little teeth and leaving gaps and chips. Pressure creates a burr, when the bevel face of one side crosses over the other. Honing with extremely light pressure can eventually remove the burr. For best pressure regulation, hone in hand. Don't rest the stone on a fixed surface. Don't brace your arm. Let the hand holding the hone and the hand holding the razor float out in space in front of you. For raising a burr, use heavy pressure. By heavy pressure, I mean the weight of your arm. Feel carefully for the burr. When it is evident along the entire edge, raise it on the other side, same way. I like to count the laps used for the first side, and then use the same number of laps for the other side, to keep the apex more or less centered. I also like to mix in some pull strokes when cleaning up a bevel. To do this, lay the razor on the hone but instead of stroking it the length of the hone, pull it directly sideways, as if dragging it off the side of the hone by the tang. Only pull it about 3/4" to 1". Flip and pull on the other side. This does a lot to clear the edge. You can maybe go 5 normal laps, then a pull stroke lap. Keep gradually reducing pressure as you grind that burr away. Finish with very short x strokes, using only maybe 3" or 4" of the hone, on a freshly rinsed stone, under running water. Once you really nail it, you should be able to shave your face with it. Not practically or enjoyably, but it should shave.
Concentrate on just one razor. I suspect you are skipping around too quickly and not putting in your time on just one until it is done.
How are you lapping your stones, and how often?
