The myth of the longer lasting BBS

[Dapper Gent]

Quite a detailed explanation, @luvmysuper. For me, one sentence you wrote sums it all up, "We are not machines, so this is not 100% repeatable."

 

[Mr. Shavington]

I also was talking about skin oils and lubrication after the shave. I know what you mean but I don’t think it makes any difference how oily my skin is (and there wouldn’t be big differences if it is always 12hrs after washing and shaving). When I press on my skin I feel hair or I don’t. If my skin oil was ever going to make a difference so that on the margin of feeling hair I don’t, then half an hour later I will feel it. It makes no difference.

I don’t accept either that two different DE razors, or the same razor on a different day, will be used at such a different angle that it cuts hair flat one time and pointed another time. There will only be slight differences which, again, may delay feeling the hair for half an hour or something.

I’m certain I do not shave identically each time. Some of my shaves are better than others. That’s surely a bigger variable than any of the others you point out.

I’m sure you’re right that there are many small factors that affect our ability to feel the hair. But still if one razor consistently gives around a 6hr close shave and another consistently gives around a 12hr shave, over time, in spite of all the other variables, then this represents a large difference in the shaving performance of the razors. That could be, as you say, partly because I am better at shaving with one razor - but I still say that is part of the razor’s performance - for me - and if others report similar results then it I can even say it is reasonably objective.

You may say theoretically that an old Gillette can be made to cut just as close, if you stretch your skin and make other improvements, but the fact remains that the closer-shaving razor is still a closer shaver and would deliver the result more simply, and quicker if you use the same techniques. All my experience tells me that some razors are not designed as effectively for giving a super-close shave. With a Gillette TTO design I guess it’s partly because the blade is held in a wobbly fashion, with imprecise build quality, the head is thick, and the effective angle is a narrow range. With a Gillette, is the whole razor edge really held as perfectly straight as in the best engineered modern razors - because if it isn’t it definitely will shave less closely and require more buffing? There are many factors in razor design that make a difference, and some modern razors give effortless, super-close, comfortable shaves in ways that other razors aren’t going to match.

Are you really saying you cannot detect differences in the quality of shave results you get from different razors? The bottom line here is simply the results of the shaves. Different razors perform very differently for me, and surely this is why razor manufacturers spend time developing their razors before selling them, because all the design elements make a difference to the result.

 

[Ron R]

I've seen posts here and there that talk about a BBS shave "lasting" longer with one razor over another, one blade over another etc.
Sorry, I'm not buying it.

First let us address the ability of each of us to "feel" the stubble after a shave.
The ability of humans to detect surface roughness with fingertips has been studied ad infinitum. The results are that in general humans are capable of determining relative roughness of a surface with the fingers to a significant degree - with caveats.

The caveats are that the ability to determine whether one thing is smoother than another is significantly affected by two factors:
1. The amount of pressure used during the "feeling" stage.
Even slightly different pressure levels causes the fingers skin contact surface to change. A slight increase in pressure causes more surface contact which increases tactile feedback. This means that a person who presses slightly more on a surface may, in error, think the surface is rougher, when in fact it is not.
2. The quantity and viscosity of lubricants present on the surface being felt.
Lubricants decrease the ability of the fingers to detect changes in surface roughness significantly. Lubricants may include moisture either applied or secreted as sweat, sebum (the skins "natural" oil), applied chemicals such as aftershaves or balms, and surface contaminants which are deposited on the face from the surrounding atmosphere.

In order to determine whether your skin feels rougher or smoother over a 6, 8 ,10 or 12 hour period, one would have to exactly duplicate the conditions that existed when the shave was completed and first felt by the individual, including:
1. The exact pressure used when feeling the face.
We are not machines, so this is not 100% repeatable. Moreover, studies have shown that even with people trained to apply a given pressure when feeling surfaces, that pressure is increased subconsciously the longer the feeling period is extended.
2. The exact same exertion level and physical status, which could produce sweat even in the slightest amount.
From day to day, even from hour to hour our reaction to physical exertion, no matter how slight, differs significantly.
3. The exact same environmental conditions over that time frame.
Unless one lives in a laboratory clean room, air quality changes constantly, and the skin is exposed to various environmental conditions such as humidity changes, pollens/microbial contaminants, and other particulate matter.
4. The exact same level of sebum production from the sebaceous glands.
The skin produces sebum, and though peak is during the teen years, even daily sebum production is affected by numerous factors including diet, level of physical activity, and exposure to environmental contaminates.

Next let us address the stubble being felt itself.

When facial hair is cut, there are only 3 options:
1. The hair is cut, to some varying degree above the skin surface.
2. The hair is cut perfectly even with the skin surface.
3. The hair is cut, to some varying degree below the skin surface.
On average, human facial hair grows approximately .27mm in 24 hours. As with all things - each individual may differ slightly on the plus or minus side. For the sake of the discussion, let us assume that in general, the same persons hair growth rate will not significantly change day to day, though it may change very very slightly due to factors such as fatigue.

If the hair is cut at some measurable distance above the skin surface, it is felt almost immediately, and for the sake of this discussion, is out of the equation.

If the hair is cut perfectly at the surface, and all of the above factors of lubrication and pressure are removed, the stubble will be "felt" at the same time period consistently. As mentioned, the factors of lubrication and pressure cannot be controlled to any degree.

If the hair is cut at some level below the skin surface, the hair must grow to a level even with, then above the skin level to be felt.
How much above the skin level it must grow to in order to be felt is again affected by the factors of lubrication and pressure.

Stretching of the skin, and the aggressiveness of the shaving process both have some effect on whether the hair is cut below the surface, and to what degree. However, the significant factors of lubrication and pressure again will bias what we perceive to be the relative smoothness of the shave.

In short, I think that those who experience what they believe to be a longer lasting BBS shave are influenced by the incontrollable factors mentioned above, combined with cutting of the hair below the surface of the skin to some degree. Regardless of which razor or blade is used, the blade will cut the hair at the level that skin stretching and shaving aggressiveness permits, not by virtue of the particular razor or the blade used.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

Interesting write up on shaving flush to the skin. The only way I have ever gotten my BBS to last a little longer and quicker is use a balm, it hydrates the surface skin and the hair follicle is rooted deeper so it feels smoother about .5-1 hr later after a shave. Basically the skin surface has expanded from water moisture from the face but the hair follicle has not thus giving the feel of smoothness (good way of cheating for a BBS shave IMO).
Have some great shaves!

 

[wormspank]

I was just wondering if blade exposure, gap, and/or span play a part in all this. I would assume, if things like pressure and shaving angle could be perfectly maintained, that these factors would contribute to how much of the wisker can be cut upon each pass. Since most razors differ in these aspects, the shave would vary amongst them, allowing for better or worse BBS shaves.

All I can say is that from my experience, my Blackland Blackbird provides me a longer lasting BBS than any of my other razors. Perhaps it's my imagination, but my head (not just face) feels smoother to me for a much longer time. I can't imagine I'm pressing down harder on my head only after I use certain razors to cause that difference.

 

[Mr. Shavington]

I was just wondering if blade exposure, gap, and/or span play a part in all this. I would assume, if things like pressure and shaving angle could be perfectly maintained, that these factors would contribute to how much of the wisker can be cut upon each pass. Since most razors differ in these aspects, the shave would vary amongst them, allowing for better or worse BBS shaves.

All I can say is that from my experience, my Blackland Blackbird provides me a longer lasting BBS than any of my other razors. Perhaps it's my imagination, but my head (not just face) feels smoother to me for a much longer time. I can't imagine I'm pressing down harder on my head only after I use certain razors to cause that difference.

Why would you think you might be imagining something you have observed first-hand many times, like that the Blackbird shaves closer than your other razors? Especially when so many other Blackbird users report exactly the same observations as yours.

You could do a half-and-half shave with the Blackbird and another razor tomorrow, and you already know the Blackbird side of your face will be smooth for longer. It just will, and we don’t need to know exactly what about the Blackbird’s design causes it, or understand exactly how the Blackbird is cutting the hair differently.

 

[Cafebarian]

it's just the perception of

Perception is reality.... Or our thoughts become our reality.

 

[DEgeezer]

In my case, no matter how much I try, I always have a permanent barely visible shadow around my face, which I can't remove regardless of the razor, blade, angle, pressure or whatever...........

I had a shipmate in the Navy that unfortunately possessed a pale complexion, and a 'blue beard.' Even right after shaving, from 6 feet away he would look unshaven.
Nearly every time we went on liberty, the Officer-of-the-deck, would stop him, and check him out. To him, a BBS would be totally immaterial, and he planned to give up shaving and grow a beard after discharge.

 

[macintoshBR]

Respectfully disagree.

I shave in the morning and wash my face in the evening before sleeping. I can certainly feel the difference of how close my shave was based on the razor/blade used.

Keeping the same technique, razors with more blade exposure will penetrate the skin deeper. Therefore,
different combinations of razors and blades will cut the hair at different levels, it’s that simple.

Now, do I care how long my BBS or yours last? Definitely not

 

[Phoenixkh]

I realize confirmation bias is real... I also know, when I did my experiments with various blades with my ESC Claymore Evolution, I got closer shaves with the Feather ProGuards than I did with the Feather ProSoft Guard blades.... you could tell from the outset. Now, of course, as a result, the stubble showed up earlier with the less close shave.. so the ProSoft Guards didn't really give me a "BBS" shave.

I want a comfortable, close shave and I can get it pretty easily. I don't use a cotton ball to test how close I got. My hand is good enough for me. If I have a couple rough spots after a 2 or 3 pass shave, I add some lather and address those spots. I think this is a pretty common practice. Still, I don't obsess about it.

But I will tell you... after I'm satisfied with the shave...... the time does vary when I can feel my stubble again... all this with the same razor, just different blades in said razor.

 

[WetShaveVet]

I've seen posts here and there that talk about a BBS shave "lasting" longer with one razor over another, one blade over another etc.
Sorry, I'm not buying it.

First let us address the ability of each of us to "feel" the stubble after a shave.
The ability of humans to detect surface roughness with fingertips has been studied ad infinitum. The results are that in general humans are capable of determining relative roughness of a surface with the fingers to a significant degree - with caveats.

The caveats are that the ability to determine whether one thing is smoother than another is significantly affected by two factors:
1. The amount of pressure used during the "feeling" stage.
Even slightly different pressure levels causes the fingers skin contact surface to change. A slight increase in pressure causes more surface contact which increases tactile feedback. This means that a person who presses slightly more on a surface may, in error, think the surface is rougher, when in fact it is not.
2. The quantity and viscosity of lubricants present on the surface being felt.
Lubricants decrease the ability of the fingers to detect changes in surface roughness significantly. Lubricants may include moisture either applied or secreted as sweat, sebum (the skins "natural" oil), applied chemicals such as aftershaves or balms, and surface contaminants which are deposited on the face from the surrounding atmosphere.

In order to determine whether your skin feels rougher or smoother over a 6, 8 ,10 or 12 hour period, one would have to exactly duplicate the conditions that existed when the shave was completed and first felt by the individual, including:
1. The exact pressure used when feeling the face.
We are not machines, so this is not 100% repeatable. Moreover, studies have shown that even with people trained to apply a given pressure when feeling surfaces, that pressure is increased subconsciously the longer the feeling period is extended.
2. The exact same exertion level and physical status, which could produce sweat even in the slightest amount.
From day to day, even from hour to hour our reaction to physical exertion, no matter how slight, differs significantly.
3. The exact same environmental conditions over that time frame.
Unless one lives in a laboratory clean room, air quality changes constantly, and the skin is exposed to various environmental conditions such as humidity changes, pollens/microbial contaminants, and other particulate matter.
4. The exact same level of sebum production from the sebaceous glands.
The skin produces sebum, and though peak is during the teen years, even daily sebum production is affected by numerous factors including diet, level of physical activity, and exposure to environmental contaminates.

Next let us address the stubble being felt itself.

When facial hair is cut, there are only 3 options:
1. The hair is cut, to some varying degree above the skin surface.
2. The hair is cut perfectly even with the skin surface.
3. The hair is cut, to some varying degree below the skin surface.
On average, human facial hair grows approximately .27mm in 24 hours. As with all things - each individual may differ slightly on the plus or minus side. For the sake of the discussion, let us assume that in general, the same persons hair growth rate will not significantly change day to day, though it may change very very slightly due to factors such as fatigue.

If the hair is cut at some measurable distance above the skin surface, it is felt almost immediately, and for the sake of this discussion, is out of the equation.

If the hair is cut perfectly at the surface, and all of the above factors of lubrication and pressure are removed, the stubble will be "felt" at the same time period consistently. As mentioned, the factors of lubrication and pressure cannot be controlled to any degree.

If the hair is cut at some level below the skin surface, the hair must grow to a level even with, then above the skin level to be felt.
How much above the skin level it must grow to in order to be felt is again affected by the factors of lubrication and pressure.

Stretching of the skin, and the aggressiveness of the shaving process both have some effect on whether the hair is cut below the surface, and to what degree. However, the significant factors of lubrication and pressure again will bias what we perceive to be the relative smoothness of the shave.

In short, I think that those who experience what they believe to be a longer lasting BBS shave are influenced by the incontrollable factors mentioned above, combined with cutting of the hair below the surface of the skin to some degree. Regardless of which razor or blade is used, the blade will cut the hair at the level that skin stretching and shaving aggressiveness permits, not by virtue of the particular razor or the blade used.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

this is a good read and it makes sense.

 

[Mr. Shavington]

this is a good read and it makes sense.

…but it conflicts with what we observe in reality.

 

[WetShaveVet]

…but it conflicts with what we observe in reality.

I don't think so but that is my opinion.

 

[Sweeney_]

I've seen posts here and there that talk about a BBS shave "lasting" longer with one razor over another, one blade over another etc.
Sorry, I'm not buying it.

First let us address the ability of each of us to "feel" the stubble after a shave.
The ability of humans to detect surface roughness with fingertips has been studied ad infinitum. The results are that in general humans are capable of determining relative roughness of a surface with the fingers to a significant degree - with caveats.

The caveats are that the ability to determine whether one thing is smoother than another is significantly affected by two factors:
1. The amount of pressure used during the "feeling" stage.
Even slightly different pressure levels causes the fingers skin contact surface to change. A slight increase in pressure causes more surface contact which increases tactile feedback. This means that a person who presses slightly more on a surface may, in error, think the surface is rougher, when in fact it is not.
2. The quantity and viscosity of lubricants present on the surface being felt.
Lubricants decrease the ability of the fingers to detect changes in surface roughness significantly. Lubricants may include moisture either applied or secreted as sweat, sebum (the skins "natural" oil), applied chemicals such as aftershaves or balms, and surface contaminants which are deposited on the face from the surrounding atmosphere.

In order to determine whether your skin feels rougher or smoother over a 6, 8 ,10 or 12 hour period, one would have to exactly duplicate the conditions that existed when the shave was completed and first felt by the individual, including:
1. The exact pressure used when feeling the face.
We are not machines, so this is not 100% repeatable. Moreover, studies have shown that even with people trained to apply a given pressure when feeling surfaces, that pressure is increased subconsciously the longer the feeling period is extended.
2. The exact same exertion level and physical status, which could produce sweat even in the slightest amount.
From day to day, even from hour to hour our reaction to physical exertion, no matter how slight, differs significantly.
3. The exact same environmental conditions over that time frame.
Unless one lives in a laboratory clean room, air quality changes constantly, and the skin is exposed to various environmental conditions such as humidity changes, pollens/microbial contaminants, and other particulate matter.
4. The exact same level of sebum production from the sebaceous glands.
The skin produces sebum, and though peak is during the teen years, even daily sebum production is affected by numerous factors including diet, level of physical activity, and exposure to environmental contaminates.

Next let us address the stubble being felt itself.

When facial hair is cut, there are only 3 options:
1. The hair is cut, to some varying degree above the skin surface.
2. The hair is cut perfectly even with the skin surface.
3. The hair is cut, to some varying degree below the skin surface.
On average, human facial hair grows approximately .27mm in 24 hours. As with all things - each individual may differ slightly on the plus or minus side. For the sake of the discussion, let us assume that in general, the same persons hair growth rate will not significantly change day to day, though it may change very very slightly due to factors such as fatigue.

If the hair is cut at some measurable distance above the skin surface, it is felt almost immediately, and for the sake of this discussion, is out of the equation.

If the hair is cut perfectly at the surface, and all of the above factors of lubrication and pressure are removed, the stubble will be "felt" at the same time period consistently. As mentioned, the factors of lubrication and pressure cannot be controlled to any degree.

If the hair is cut at some level below the skin surface, the hair must grow to a level even with, then above the skin level to be felt.
How much above the skin level it must grow to in order to be felt is again affected by the factors of lubrication and pressure.

Stretching of the skin, and the aggressiveness of the shaving process both have some effect on whether the hair is cut below the surface, and to what degree. However, the significant factors of lubrication and pressure again will bias what we perceive to be the relative smoothness of the shave.

In short, I think that those who experience what they believe to be a longer lasting BBS shave are influenced by the incontrollable factors mentioned above, combined with cutting of the hair below the surface of the skin to some degree. Regardless of which razor or blade is used, the blade will cut the hair at the level that skin stretching and shaving aggressiveness permits, not by virtue of the particular razor or the blade used.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

An impressive argument.

Now do I believe you or my lying fingertips?

 

[AimlessWanderer]

I'm of the belief that a longer BBS is possible, but echoing the perspective that it comes from either cutting hair below the surface, or fluffing the skin up above the level of the shorn hair, with post shave "skin food" (balms and other hydrating post shave concoctions).

However, I'm not of the belief that doing so is a good thing. Well, not on my face anyway. There's a far higher probability of suffering ingrown hairs, and I would much rather have stubble returning a few hours sooner, than have to deal with ingrown hairs. Cutting at skin level, is perfectly adequate for me.

 

[Mr. Shavington]

I still maintain that all of the arguments luvmysuper has made are eliminated as factors by using different razors many times, over time, if differences between razors are still observed consistently in all conditions. But I think you’re all looking for some explanation for how and why these differences exist before you can accept it.

So maybe we have to think about why one razor might cut further below the skin surface than another, because I do not believe a 12+ hour smooth shave can happen without cutting consistently and evenly below the surface. It is always difficult when we get into this sort of thing because we really don’t have any knowledge about razor design, and I’m not even sure razor manufacturers really do either, beyond just knowing that certain things tend to affect the shaving characteristics of razors in certain ways, usually.

But (with no real knowledge) let me try:

- The safety bar design can deflect the skin surface ahead of the razor edge and produce an effect similar to skin stretching, which pulls the hairs upwards and allows the blade to cut below the skin surface

- The weight of the razor head and the weight balance of the razor can increase or decrease the above effect (noting that we all naturally apply different and variable amounts of pressure ourselves so that is perhaps one reason why YMMV with different users using the same razor too). Too much weight or pressure would deflect the skin too much and cause the blade edge to contact and scrape the skin before hitting hair

- The exact way the safety bar deflects the skin must affect the angle at which the blade edge contacts the hair, which would also change how closely or how flat to the skin the blade cuts. There must be an interaction between the attack angle of the blade and the way the safety bar deflects the skin, and for an optimal result these would need to be harmonised

- The rigidity of the blade would cause the blade to make a clean cut where it contacts the hair, or to be deflected by other hairs and lift off the skin surface, this cutting the next hair higher

- The way the blade is held can introduce waviness along the blade edge, and if that exists the blade will not be cutting all hairs at the base - some parts of the blade will be cutting higher

Aren’t these all very plausible ways in which different razor designs can increase or decrease the degree to which the razor cuts hair below skin level, and how evenly it does so. And also how different user technique can match or impede the efficiency of the razor design and so produce variable results between users?

 

[Titleist]

However, I'm not of the belief that doing so is a good thing. Well, not on my face anyway. There's a far higher probability of suffering ingrown hairs, and I would much rather have stubble returning a few hours sooner, than have to deal with ingrown hairs. Cutting at skin level, is perfectly adequate for me.

This is my position on the subject as well. Between DE's and using my straight razors I have experienced the so called "BBS" shave but not as frequently as many claim. To be honest, when I was "in pursuit" of a BBS, I found myself winding up with more irritation than those few times that BBS just simply happened for me. And, that is a culmination of shaving with straights and DE's after 10 years. I don't count my shaves so I really cannot assign a number value to those shaves.

It (BBS) just isn't a priority for me really. And in the end, who here really cares if I achieve a BBS shave?

I shave, therefore I am.

 

[Tanuki]

The one thing that really bothers me is that some folks after shaving have visible perfectly clean faces without any traces of beard at all like actors have in movies and also without even a hint of redness and irritation let alone cuts, nicks, weepers etc.

In my case, no matter how much I try, I always have a permanent barely visible shadow around my face, which I can't remove regardless of the razor, blade, angle, pressure or whatever. My face feels perfectly smooth and even passes the cotton and credit card tests, but I can still see the tiny small dots on the mirror. After a while I came to the conclusion that no matter how much I try I will never be able to achieve the absolute perfection of removing even the slightest hint of having a single whisker on my face and have that actor look.

It's more than obvious that everyone has different whiskers and some folks are capable of removing the visible whiskers even without going against the grain. If anyone knows any trick or secret how to permanently remove everything without applying anything on my face to hide it, please let me know .

Just a mention in passing - actors are wearing makeup. Light skin and dark stubble - some guys will always show their beard lines.

As @luvmysuper and @Ron R have emphasized, my post shave products definitely affect the BBS feel for me.

In spite of having put up a thread about gentlemanly restraint from BBS, I still pursue it on occasion. It never keeps my stubble from growing in promptly.

 

[Mr. Shavington]

I do look for a very close, long-lasting shave, so I look for razors that will give me consistent 12+ hour smooth shaves, and will do it without causing irritation.

It’s because I shave at night, and I like to still feel freshly shaved the next morning. And also because I shave every other day (my hair is not dark, so I get away with it) and I want the shave to last as long as possible, plus I don’t stress my skin by doing this every day. So what we are discussing here is the thing I actively seek from my shaving equipment and technique.

 

[luvmysuper]

I also was talking about skin oils and lubrication after the shave. I know what you mean but I don’t think it makes any difference how oily my skin is (and there wouldn’t be big differences if it is always 12hrs after washing and shaving). When I press on my skin I feel hair or I don’t. If my skin oil was ever going to make a difference so that on the margin of feeling hair I don’t, then half an hour later I will feel it. It makes no difference.

I don’t accept either that two different DE razors, or the same razor on a different day, will be used at such a different angle that it cuts hair flat one time and pointed another time. There will only be slight differences which, again, may delay feeling the hair for half an hour or something.

I’m certain I do not shave identically each time. Some of my shaves are better than others. That’s surely a bigger variable than any of the others you point out.

I’m sure you’re right that there are many small factors that affect our ability to feel the hair. But still if one razor consistently gives around a 6hr close shave and another consistently gives around a 12hr shave, over time, in spite of all the other variables, then this represents a large difference in the shaving performance of the razors. That could be, as you say, partly because I am better at shaving with one razor - but I still say that is part of the razor’s performance - for me - and if others report similar results then it I can even say it is reasonably objective.

You may say theoretically that an old Gillette can be made to cut just as close, if you stretch your skin and make other improvements, but the fact remains that the closer-shaving razor is still a closer shaver and would deliver the result more simply, and quicker if you use the same techniques. All my experience tells me that some razors are not designed as effectively for giving a super-close shave. With a Gillette TTO design I guess it’s partly because the blade is held in a wobbly fashion, with imprecise build quality, the head is thick, and the effective angle is a narrow range. With a Gillette, is the whole razor edge really held as perfectly straight as in the best engineered modern razors - because if it isn’t it definitely will shave less closely and require more buffing? There are many factors in razor design that make a difference, and some modern razors give effortless, super-close, comfortable shaves in ways that other razors aren’t going to match.

Are you really saying you cannot detect differences in the quality of shave results you get from different razors? The bottom line here is simply the results of the shaves. Different razors perform very differently for me, and surely this is why razor manufacturers spend time developing their razors before selling them, because all the design elements make a difference to the result.

Why would you think you might be imagining something you have observed first-hand many times, like that the Blackbird shaves closer than your other razors? Especially when so many other Blackbird users report exactly the same observations as yours.

You could do a half-and-half shave with the Blackbird and another razor tomorrow, and you already know the Blackbird side of your face will be smooth for longer. It just will, and we don’t need to know exactly what about the Blackbird’s design causes it, or understand exactly how the Blackbird is cutting the hair differently.

Respectfully disagree.

I shave in the morning and wash my face in the evening before sleeping. I can certainly feel the difference of how close my shave was based on the razor/blade used.

Keeping the same technique, razors with more blade exposure will penetrate the skin deeper. Therefore,
different combinations of razors and blades will cut the hair at different levels, it’s that simple.

Now, do I care how long my BBS or yours last? Definitely not

…but it conflicts with what we observe in reality.

I still maintain that all of the arguments luvmysuper has made are eliminated as factors by using different razors many times, over time, if differences between razors are still observed consistently in all conditions. But I think you’re all looking for some explanation for how and why these differences exist before you can accept it.

So maybe we have to think about why one razor might cut further below the skin surface than another, because I do not believe a 12+ hour smooth shave can happen without cutting consistently and evenly below the surface. It is always difficult when we get into this sort of thing because we really don’t have any knowledge about razor design, and I’m not even sure razor manufacturers really do either, beyond just knowing that certain things tend to affect the shaving characteristics of razors in certain ways, usually.

But (with no real knowledge) let me try:

- The safety bar design can deflect the skin surface ahead of the razor edge and produce an effect similar to skin stretching, which pulls the hairs upwards and allows the blade to cut below the skin surface

- The weight of the razor head and the weight balance of the razor can increase or decrease the above effect (noting that we all naturally apply different and variable amounts of pressure ourselves so that is perhaps one reason why YMMV with different users using the same razor too). Too much weight or pressure would deflect the skin too much and cause the blade edge to contact and scrape the skin before hitting hair

- The exact way the safety bar deflects the skin must affect the angle at which the blade edge contacts the hair, which would also change how closely or how flat to the skin the blade cuts. There must be an interaction between the attack angle of the blade and the way the safety bar deflects the skin, and for an optimal result these would need to be harmonised

- The rigidity of the blade would cause the blade to make a clean cut where it contacts the hair, or to be deflected by other hairs and lift off the skin surface, this cutting the next hair higher

- The way the blade is held can introduce waviness along the blade edge, and if that exists the blade will not be cutting all hairs at the base - some parts of the blade will be cutting higher

Aren’t these all very plausible ways in which different razor designs can increase or decrease the degree to which the razor cuts hair below skin level, and how evenly it does so. And also how different user technique can match or impede the efficiency of the razor design and so produce variable results between users?

I do look for a very close, long-lasting shave, so I look for razors that will give me consistent 12+ hour smooth shaves, and will do it without causing irritation.

It’s because I shave at night, and I like to still feel freshly shaved the next morning. And also because I shave every other day (my hair is not dark, so I get away with it) and I want the shave to last as long as possible, plus I don’t stress my skin by doing this every day. So what we are discussing here is the thing I actively seek from my shaving equipment and technique.

Ok.

 

[Mr. Shavington]

Ok.

I take it that your observations are quite different to mine. Do you really get broadly equivalent shaves from very different razors? High and low blade exposure, gaps, supposedly aggressive and mild- feeling razors? I don’t know what razors you have, but it is interesting if we have such widely varying experiences, and I would certainly see where your argument is coming from.