Natural finisher, synthetic progression opinions

[Alum of Potash]

I recently acquired a small "hard" Arkansas marketed by Preyda (ex-Hall's). It has fissures on the surface, and I was not impressed based on what I've received in the past from Dan's Whetstone. Especially for a black hard Arkansas, I would suggest one from Dan's. Also, as I recall, with Preyda, there are some complaints about the "Dunston" black hard not being all that hard in the end, it being preferable to use their "translucent black." A black translucent from Dictum that I've used in France is very good, but it comes at a price.

Must be my heavy hand, but I like the edge off a coticule used with baby oil (perfumed mineral oil available in the States), provided that the coticule is used after an extended synth progression. Last night, I rewrote a bevel and edge with my sequence of 37mm x 160mm Shapton G7 hones, ending with the one marked 0.85 microns. Then I did a few dozen laps on a 37mm x 148mm old coticule used with baby oil. The result was quite good, the surface being like polished glass, with no need to move to something else.

On the other hand, if I follow a progression I've used for a long time, a Suehiro 1000/3000 combo followed by a coticule used with plain water, the shave is not close enough. I have to follow the coticule with an oiled purple slate to really make things happen. This I take to be where I left off in the synth progression.

 

[Reiik]

I recently acquired a small "hard" Arkansas marketed by Preyda (ex-Hall's). It has fissures on the surface, and I was not impressed based on what I've received in the past from Dan's Whetstone. Especially for a black hard Arkansas, I would suggest one from Dan's. Also, as I recall, with Preyda, there are some complaints about the "Dunston" black hard not being all that hard in the end, it being preferable to use their "translucent black." A black translucent from Dictum that I've used in France is very good, but it comes at a price.

Must be my heavy hand, but I like the edge off a coticule used with baby oil (perfumed mineral oil available in the States), provided that the coticule is used after an extended synth progression. Last night, I rewrote a bevel and edge with my sequence of 37mm x 160mm Shapton G7 hones, ending with the one marked 0.85 microns. Then I did a few dozen laps on a 37mm x 148mm old coticule used with baby oil. The result was quite good, the surface being like polished glass, with no need to move to something else.

On the other hand, if I follow a progression I've used for a long time, a Suehiro 1000/3000 combo followed by a coticule used with plain water, the shave is not close enough. I have to follow the coticule with an oiled purple slate to really make things happen. This I take to be where I left off in the synth progression.

i seem to have found good reviews online about their (Preyda) "surgical black" stone, although some people were complaining about the fact that the size didn't match exactly what they were expecting. I thought asking here would be my best guess since there are many americans. Also Dan's seems like the way to go, in the end the price is pretty much there for the kind of stone that i want but unfortunately i can't find a dealer for their stones and ordering straight from the US would cost me 22% more plus shipping so i don't feel like it's worth it anymore. The dictum stone is the same price but i can't seem to find many reviews on it. The thing with natural stones is that they're very variable so looking for a perfect consistency in reviews is pointless as @Gamma said, the only way is trying them. But since they're also expensive i think it's worth asking around if the seller is reliable and sells what they're promising. Sort of like what people say about Escher, it's turingian, but not all turingian becomes escher because there's a selection so i am kinda looking for a seller that has a good reputation, if someone sells what we call "surgical black" i expect to receive a stone within that range that's pretty much it. If i am mistaken then i am happy to be told i am

 

[Wid]

i seem to have found good reviews online about their (Preyda) "surgical black" stone, although some people were complaining about the fact that the size didn't match exactly what they were expecting. I thought asking here would be my best guess since there are many americans. Also Dan's seems like the way to go, in the end the price is pretty much there for the kind of stone that i want but unfortunately i can't find a dealer for their stones and ordering straight from the US would cost me 22% more plus shipping so i don't feel like it's worth it anymore. The dictum stone is the same price but i can't seem to find many reviews on it. The thing with natural stones is that they're very variable so looking for a perfect consistency in reviews is pointless as @Gamma said, the only way is trying them. But since they're also expensive i think it's worth asking around if the seller is reliable and sells what they're promising. Sort of like what people say about Escher, it's turingian, but not all turingian becomes escher because there's a selection so i am kinda looking for a seller that has a good reputation, if someone sells what we call "surgical black" i expect to receive a stone within that range that's pretty much it. If i am mistaken then i am happy to be told i am

Talk to @RobbyC about getting good finisher. He is based in the UK and has some nice finishers. The Charnley is a very nice stone very similar to an Arkansas stone.

 

[TexNat]

Pay the extra 22% and order a Dan's black. Their stones are reliable quality, square, and flat. Minimal, if any, extra flattening will be required. Buy once, cry once.

 

[Reiik]

Pay the extra 22% and order a Dan's. Their stones are square and flat. Minimal, if any, extra flattening will be required.

it's going up to 50% shipping and some other stuff included so if flatness (is that even a word?) is the issue i m gonna deal wth it myself for way less than ~50 euros.

Talk to @RobbyC about getting good finisher. He is based in the UK and has some nice finishers. The Charnley is a very nice stone very similar to an Arkansas stone.

thank you for your suggestion, i will.

 

[Alum of Potash]

i seem to have found good reviews online about their (Preyda) "surgical black" stone, although some people were complaining about the fact that the size didn't match exactly what they were expecting. I thought asking here would be my best guess since there are many americans. Also Dan's seems like the way to go, in the end the price is pretty much there for the kind of stone that i want but unfortunately i can't find a dealer for their stones and ordering straight from the US would cost me 22% more plus shipping so i don't feel like it's worth it anymore. The dictum stone is the same price but i can't seem to find many reviews on it. The thing with natural stones is that they're very variable so looking for a perfect consistency in reviews is pointless as @Gamma said, the only way is trying them. But since they're also expensive i think it's worth asking around if the seller is reliable and sells what they're promising. Sort of like what people say about Escher, it's turingian, but not all turingian becomes escher because there's a selection so i am kinda looking for a seller that has a good reputation, if someone sells what we call "surgical black" i expect to receive a stone within that range that's pretty much it. If i am mistaken then i am happy to be told i am

The Dictum translucent black is a great stone, backed with great customer support.

 

[Reiik]

The Dictum translucent black is a great stone, backed with great customer support.

in the list it goes then, maybe in a few months i will have tried both

 

[APBinNCA]

The Dictum translucent black is a great stone, backed with great customer support.

Oh no, my poor wallet! I am at 250 for three stones, that seems good. Is this a good idea if buying from the US?

 

[Alum of Potash]

Is this a good idea if buying from the US?

No. I mention it because the OP is in Italy.

 

[Reiik]

@Alum of Potash when would you use a hard arkansas in the progression? in your experience is it any good after a 8k or would you use it on a more refined edge?
i am considering getting the stone from dictum as you suggested so i'm wondering if you would have any clue if it's a good idea to use it after the fuji

 

[Alum of Potash]

@Alum of Potash when would you use a hard arkansas in the progression? in your experience is it any good after a 8k or would you use it on a more refined edge?
i am considering getting the stone from dictum as you suggested so i'm wondering if you would have any clue if it's a good idea to use it after the fuji

Hello Reiik. I have not used the 1k > 4k > 8k synth progression you are contemplating (or any other for that matter), so I cannot respond exactly to it. Still, my take is that the finer Arkansas stones (translucent, "true hard," hard black, black translucent") vary as to how they are used in a progression. If they are used in a dedicated Arkansas oil-stone progression, they serve more for sharpening, especially as one side can be left "rough" followed by the other which is "polished" or "burnished" up to 1000x-2000x. From my experience, this is analogous to a coticule used with water only (no slurry) after a Suehiro 1k/3k synth combo hone. Both yield shaveable results, but for me, the Arkansas edge is bit closer, particularly if a black translucent is used. With a coticule used this way, I need to add a Welsh purple slate used with oil at the end. An alternative to this is to use the polished side of the Arkansas after a synth progression going up to 10k-15k, where the effect seems to calm the synth edge, whereupon some think that the Arkansas is the finest stone of all, etc. For me, what it is doing is burnishing the steel at this stage, not sharpening, and pretty much the same thing happens for me in using a coticule lapped to 600x-1000x and used with oil, or just about any hard natural finisher.

So for me, there are two paths to using the Arkansas finisher. Ending with an 8k synth would seem to be falling between the two, and I cannot say how it would fare off the 8k synth. My experience has been with using coticules off 3k and 5k synths, then followed by oiled purple slate, and more recently, a Shapton G7 synth progression ending with the "0.85 micron" hone, which translates to something like 10k to 17k JIS depending on who's selling it. There, I use a polished hard Arkansas, coticule, or slate with oil to calm the edge a little bit. Which one used really isn't important.

My limited advice to you in following the 1k > 4k > 8k progression would be first shave off the 8k to see how it feels, then follow this by a brief return to the 8k followed by your small coticule used with oil. If this improves the edge significantly and you're happy with it, then that's all you really need. If not, or if you are just really curious to try the black translucent, then follow the 8k synth with the Arkansas stone lapped as received on one side, followed by the other side which has been lapped to 1000x-2000x. The idea here would be to bridge the 8k synth to the polished side of the Arkansas stone with the rougher side, but it might also be able to achieve this off the 4k synth, leaving the 8k synth out of the equation completely.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[JPO]

The Dictum translucent black is a great stone, backed with great customer support.

I only have one Ark, so my sample size is really small. The Dictum translucent black i got is a really good stone.

 

[Reiik]

I only have one Ark, so my sample size is really small. The Dictum translucent black i got is a really good stone.

Tell us how you use it what condition does it come in? does it come well lapped or you had to go through the process?

My limited advice to you in following the 1k > 4k > 8k progression would be first shave off the 8k to see how it feels, then follow this by a brief return to the 8k followed by your small coticule used with oil. If this improves the edge significantly and you're happy with it, then that's all you really need. If not, or if you are just really curious to try the black translucent, then follow the 8k synth with the Arkansas stone lapped as received on one side, followed by the other side which has been lapped to 1000x-2000x. The idea here would be to bridge the 8k synth to the polished side of the Arkansas stone with the rougher side, but it might also be able to achieve this off the 4k synth, leaving the 8k synth out of the equation completely.

Hope this makes sense.

It does make sense. My idea was to lap it if needed and use w/d and do some tests and see how it works. I was thinking of 600 grit and 1200. I saw that burnishing it makes it super smooth but yea if I have to use it that way I wonder if it is too big of a leap for 8k edge and it will eventually do nothing to it. Testing will tell for sure.

 

[JPO]

Tell us how you use it what condition does it come in? does it come well lapped or you had to go through the process?

It does make sense. My idea was to lap it if needed and use w/d and do some tests and see how it works. I was thinking of 600 grit and 1200. I saw that burnishing it makes it super smooth but yea if I have to use it that way I wonder if the 8k edge is not close enough. Testing will tell for sure.

Mine came reasonably flat (slight convex). The as new condition was what I consider knife ready. All I did was to use wet 400 and 600 sandpaper. Used it on some kitchen knifes before I used it with razors. I use it with ONR after a coticule or after a 0.85 u shapton 7.
I convexed one side, but that is a different subject
For best results I use both sides.

 

[lightfoot]

I’ve used a decent variety of natural stones for finishing as well as synthetics and compounds. I’ve managed to get all manner of edges from each and every option. What I’ve found is that a natural finishing stone was never the answer for edges that were “almost” there. It was and still is at times a matter of having a good handle of honing fundamentals. So in the end the natural stones provided a different result that at times may have been preferable but almost never what I would call “better” than other options when the honing process was well handled. Hope this helps

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

An Ark edge is very different from a Coticule. A hard Ark is unique to other finishers, as you can/should tailor the stone face finish to the razor finish you are after.

Likely you will not be able to make the jump from a 4k to a hard ark, without a lot of laps and honing experience. Keep in mind that the edge of a razor does not get straight until 8k and if you attempt to straighten a 4k edge with a hard Ark you will be there a while.

The 8k polishes and straightens the edge so all you need is to finish the edge with the stone edge finish of your choice. It takes all the heavy lifting from the finisher and the honer. From 8k you can go to paste or any natural finisher. Look at a 4k and 8k edge with magnification, you will see the difference.

The goal of all razor honing is to straighten the edge.

While you can flatten a hard Ark with Wet and Dry, that is where all the nightmare “hours of Ark lapping” post come from. You need 60 grit loose Silicon Carbide to get to flat in a short amount of time, once flat you can run up the grits quickly, but removing material to get to flat takes aggressive grit and pressure on a steel surface. 60 grit wet and dry is not the same as loose silicon carbide, not even close.

I finish one side to 600 and burnish the other after2000 wet and dry. $15 will buy you a grit progression from 60-500, silicon carbide from GotGrit.com, ¼ lbs., which will do several stones.

For reference here are photos of 1k, 4k, 8k, and 12k. Note the difference in the 4 and 8k edge, these are all the same razor. If your edges do not look like this at each stone in the progression, then that is what you should work on before buying other finishers.

 

[Reiik]

An Ark edge is very different from a Coticule. A hard Ark is unique to other finishers, as you can/should tailor the stone face finish to the razor finish you are after.

Likely you will not be able to make the jump from a 4k to a hard ark, without a lot of laps and honing experience. Keep in mind that the edge of a razor does not get straight until 8k and if you attempt to straighten a 4k edge with a hard Ark you will be there a while.

The 8k polishes and straightens the edge so all you need is to finish the edge with the stone edge finish of your choice. It takes all the heavy lifting from the finisher and the honer. From 8k you can go to paste or any natural finisher. Look at a 4k and 8k edge with magnification, you will see the difference.

The goal of all razor honing is to straighten the edge.

While you can flatten a hard Ark with Wet and Dry, that is where all the nightmare “hours of Ark lapping” post come from. You need 60 grit loose Silicon Carbide to get to flat in a short amount of time, once flat you can run up the grits quickly, but removing material to get to flat takes aggressive grit and pressure on a steel surface. 60 grit wet and dry is not the same as loose silicon carbide, not even close.

I finish one side to 600 and burnish the other after2000 wet and dry. $15 will buy you a grit progression from 60-500, silicon carbide from GotGrit.com, ¼ lbs., which will do several stones.

For reference here are photos of 1k, 4k, 8k, and 12k. Note the difference in the 4 and 8k edge, these are all the same razor. If your edges do not look like this at each stone in the progression, then that is what you should work on before buying other finishers.

thank you for your answer. The doubt was exactly this, what to do after the 8k? i m aware of the sic powder lapping and it's not gonna be a problem, same thing with the sandpaper. so should i try to go from the synthetic to the 600 and then the burnished one? i will eventually have to make it my own and see what is going to improve it.
another question about the lapping, how often do you lap a hard arkansas? like, after all the time you spend lapping it i would assume it does wear very slowly so it wouldn't require lapping that often at all. my coti is so soft that it requires lapping everytime i use it, sometimes i have to lap it again before finishing when i m doing a full honing session on it.

after all these answers i think i will do this. first of all thank you to all the people who answered.
my plan is going to be:
1 - buying the 3 sunthetic stones up to 8k
2 - i want to get a new coticule to use as a finisher but i need to contact someone in europe that can help me find a hard and fine stone
3 - get the trans black arkansas, lap it with sic 150 - 280 - 400 and 600 sp on one side and burnish the other(can i use a cheap cleaver for it?)

about the progression i woud like to try these:
up to 8k + my coti on oil
up to 8k + new water coti
up to 8k + arkansas side ended with 600sp and then burnished side

i like the idea of having this variation to use as finisher and will definitely experiment a lot with it. especially with the coti since i also want to go from 4k to coti finish and maybe ark after.
there would be a lot to be experimenting on with this set up and i m all for it.
if something doesn't make sense then let me know.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

how often do you lap a hard arkansas? like, after all the time you spend lapping it i would assume it does wear very slowly so it wouldn't require lapping that often at all.

It depends on your stone, how it was lapped to 600, lose or W&D, the razor and your technique.

Arks never “need” to be refinished unless you want to change the surface, add aggression on the 600 side or more polish on the burnished side.

Once the stone face is flat, it can be changed easily as you are not removing a lot of material. If you buy a vintage Ark, try it first, years of honing may have burnished it nicely, lap the back side to 600, so you have a Dual grit stone.

An Ark, post 8k is pretty simple, once the Ark is lapped and finished. Coticules are a whole other rabbit hole. Nobody that hones much has just one Coticule. I must have at least a dozen, and I’m not a coticule fan.

 

[Alum of Potash]

I would suggest lapping one side beyond P600. For some reason, the burnishing magic seems to happen at P1000-P2000, whereby the surface feels "molten." For the other, sharpening side, yes, you could smooth it by using it with knives first, but that is sort of a slow way to arrive at what one is doing with lapping. Thing there is to leave to sharpen a bit, so refreshing or dressing it from time to time to restore fighting strength is needed IMO.

For a specific kind of coticule, you could always contact Ardennes directly, telling them what you want. Also, you could consider picking up a bout rather than an exact cut. Again, tell them an approximate dimension and they can see what is close in their stock. A no. 8 bout is usually quite enough for me; a smaller no. 7 bout is good for me too provided that it's the right format.

 

[Reiik]

amazing answers, thank you all, guys. once i manage to get the ark and the rest of the stones i might bother you with more questions <3

about the coti, i will see what to do and try to find some info on reliable sellers, and yes might contact ardennes directly and see what they tell me.