Edge or Technique?

[Alum of Potash]

I know you're all happy to help, but is there any literature I can read regarding this to give you all a break from my incessant questioning?

Too many cooks in the kitchen, I always call it, me being one more cook as well. Yes, it can be overwhelming with different advice being thrown around. In this case, it may be best to listen to an experienced professional, a reliable razor and honing merchant like Jarrod in starting out, provided they have the time to help and are not just out to sell you more stuff.

As for literature, "let us know when you find it" as the saying goes. Me, I've recently been consulting an old Pike sharpening guide from 1919, "How to Sharpen and What to Use." It's pretty amazing what is recommended there as a full progression, a mere fine India to a hard Arkansas or coticule used with oil, ending with plain leather stropping. I tried this recently with a beater razor, and the result wasn't all too bad on the first pass, although I did add 8 laps on a red-pasted leather strop to pick up things a little for the rest of the shave.

 

[SparkyLB]

My dear old dad called it, "Grist for the mill." I have no issues with opposing points of view. I enjoy reading folks' rationale for what they say and in the long run, I feel it allows me to make a more informed decision. It certainly can help one to infer what to rule out.

There's fact, there's "tribal knowledge," and there are varying degrees of wrong--some of which border on "almost right!" The challenge is deciding which is what. Yes it can be daunting to a newcomer, but I read as much as I possibly can. After awhile one can get a feel for who speaks from experience and who just speaks. Fortunately I've not heard a peep from the latter here on B&B.

It's all good. It's only shaving.

 

[rbscebu]

.... I already get the feeling that rbscebu woul tell me to stop asking questions follow instructions!! (I say that with a smile)

Never. I enjoy helping people with what limited knowledge I have. I also enjoy learning from others who provide advice to n00bies.

I am not always right but then there are many others on B&B who thankfully correct me. We all need to learn, always.

 

[SparkyLB]

So I weighed my options, and without lending any creedence to anyone's advice over anyone else's, (because I certainly don't know better), considering my balsa strops are ready to go, and I don't own a leather one yet-- I'm not in a financial position yet to get a leather strop, so my options were to forego using the straight until I got my leather strop (I see the value in this advice). . . or, well, you know. (Did I mention I'm a bit impulsive?)

In the spirit of shaving every day with my straight, (to build muscle memory), I used the 50K, 100K, 200K progression to the letter of the .pdf. When I was done, I could see a distinct bevel on each side that was about as perfectly uniform in thickness and brightness as if done by a robot. Again, if I only had a microscope!

The experience wasn't terribly different than yesterday's regarding the tugging, but I think it's just a matter of practice. The blade was tree-topping like gangbusters compared to before. I did my entire cheeks with the straight, as well as made my goatee vertical, ending E to W at the corners of my mouth. The goatee was previously about 1 1/2" to the L and R of that point. The new edge did not take well to the very full growth of the goatee and mustache, but I worked on it, and used XTG only in those two spots with the straight and it did fairly well.

I also used the straight to go up both sides and the front of my neck (WTG is up my neck), that went very well. It was almost on par with my safety razor.

After, I re-lathered and cleaned up everything. Hit myself with cold water and applied some after shave (Art of Shaving alcohol-free stuff) scent-free too.

The entire shave was nice and slow, and absolutely no incidents to report.

I suppose I'm a happy camper. I'm on my way.

 

[APBinNCA]

I am just on the sidelines, but congratulations! Sounds like an improvement and no unconventional blood donation either.

 

[SparkyLB]

Involuntary blood-letting.

 

[RayClem]

So I weighed my options, and without lending any creedence to anyone's advice over anyone else's, (because I certainly don't know better), considering my balsa strops are ready to go, and I don't own a leather one yet-- I'm not in a financial position yet to get a leather strop, so my options were to forego using the straight until I got my leather strop (I see the value in this advice). . . or, well, you know. (Did I mention I'm a bit impulsive?)

In the spirit of shaving every day with my straight, (to build muscle memory), I used the 50K, 100K, 200K progression to the letter of the .pdf. When I was done, I could see a distinct bevel on each side that was about as perfectly uniform in thickness and brightness as if done by a robot. Again, if I only had a microscope!

The experience wasn't terribly different than yesterday's regarding the tugging, but I think it's just a matter of practice. The blade was tree-topping like gangbusters compared to before. I did my entire cheeks with the straight, as well as made my goatee vertical, ending E to W at the corners of my mouth. The goatee was previously about 1 1/2" to the L and R of that point. The new edge did not take well to the very full growth of the goatee and mustache, but I worked on it, and used XTG only in those two spots with the straight and it did fairly well.

I also used the straight to go up both sides and the front of my neck (WTG is up my neck), that went very well. It was almost on par with my safety razor.

After, I re-lathered and cleaned up everything. Hit myself with cold water and applied some after shave (Art of Shaving alcohol-free stuff) scent-free too.

The entire shave was nice and slow, and absolutely no incidents to report.

I suppose I'm a happy camper. I'm on my way.

Although having a nice strop is wonderful, even an inexpensive one is better than no strop at all. If you have an old belt that you no longer wear, you can use that. You can also purchase crafting leather from craft stores and glue that onto a piece of smooth lumber or balsa. Amazon has some inexpensive Chinese leather strops. While not great, they are better than nothing. Another option is using a folded piece of newspaper. The abrasives in the paper and ink serve as a poor man's strop. Don't try using coated magazine paper as that won't work the same way,

 

[rbscebu]

So I weighed my options, and without lending any creedence to anyone's advice over anyone else's, (because I certainly don't know better), considering my balsa strops are ready to go, and I don't own a leather one yet-- I'm not in a financial position yet to get a leather strop, so my options were to forego using the straight until I got my leather strop (I see the value in this advice). . . or, well, you know. (Did I mention I'm a bit impulsive?)

In the spirit of shaving every day with my straight, (to build muscle memory), I used the 50K, 100K, 200K progression to the letter of the .pdf. When I was done, I could see a distinct bevel on each side that was about as perfectly uniform in thickness and brightness as if done by a robot. Again, if I only had a microscope!

The experience wasn't terribly different than yesterday's regarding the tugging, but I think it's just a matter of practice. The blade was tree-topping like gangbusters compared to before. I did my entire cheeks with the straight, as well as made my goatee vertical, ending E to W at the corners of my mouth. The goatee was previously about 1 1/2" to the L and R of that point. The new edge did not take well to the very full growth of the goatee and mustache, but I worked on it, and used XTG only in those two spots with the straight and it did fairly well.

I also used the straight to go up both sides and the front of my neck (WTG is up my neck), that went very well. It was almost on par with my safety razor.

After, I re-lathered and cleaned up everything. Hit myself with cold water and applied some after shave (Art of Shaving alcohol-free stuff) scent-free too.

The entire shave was nice and slow, and absolutely no incidents to report.

I suppose I'm a happy camper. I'm on my way.

Now put your SR through another full pasted balsa strop progression before your next shave. Repeat this after each shave until you notice no further improvement in the edge quality.

For better shaving results, also work on your shaving technique; shaving angle, pressure and skin stretching. You need to find what works best for you, not what we necessarily advise you to do.

 

[SparkyLB]

Although having a nice strop is wonderful, even an inexpensive one is better than no strop at all. If you have an old belt that you no longer wear, you can use that. You can also purchase crafting leather from craft stores and glue that onto a piece of smooth lumber or balsa. Amazon has some inexpensive Chinese leather strops. While not great, they are better than nothing. Another option is using a folded piece of newspaper. The abrasives in the paper and ink serve as a poor man's strop. Don't try using coated magazine paper as that won't work the same way,

In the craft store where I purchased my balsa I noticed some pieces of leather. I'll find something smooth and somewhat long. I'll save the buckskin for now.

 

[Titleist]

I've read all of the posts here. The razor came from a reputable person who puts a reputable edge on a razor.

Without being there, my opinion is one of three (or possibly all three) issues:

Not enough beard prep/hydration. Your beard hairs must be properly hydrated before your razors' edge will cut the whiskers. Wash your face with face soap, rinse thoroughly and then lather your face. Let that sit for five minute or so while you strop your razor on leather. Come back to the sink, re-lather and start shaving.

Improper lather prep. New shavers spend little time learning the proper viscosity of a soap lather. The billowy cloud like lathers are really not what you want for a straight razor shave. Thinner, slicker lathers are what you need for a more comfortable shave. During my shaves, I may lather multiple times if my lather dries too fast. I am constantly checking the lather for proper hydration in my heated shave scuttle.

Blade angle. To @SparkyLB , I recommend that you lay the blade completely FLAT on your face and shave. Forget angles and dangles at first. Take a good look at your straight razor blade. The spine is thicker than the edge for a reason. When I hone an edge, I lay the blade FLAT on the stone. If I am doing that when I am establishing an edge, why wouldn't your edge shave your beard laying flat like that?

Shave your cheeks only tomorrow using a FLAT BLADE and SHORT STROKES with NO PRESSURE. And then come back and let us know how it went. Forget about pasted strops for a few days. You have enough to focus on without that right now.

The edge that the Hone-Meister provided should last you a week at least of not more if you are using your leather strop properly.

Just my two cents, best of luck to you.

 

[Frank Shaves]

You are making great progress, but you need a leather strop, period.

Most of the folks on Badger & Blade use leather strops. When you are prepared to pay about $50, buy a value strop from @Tony Miller at https://heirloomrazorstrop.com/. The veg tanned horsehide value strop is an excellent first strop.

I have not used one, but you can strop on denim and even newspaper. I would look at denim strop? - https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/denim-strop.616766/.

Perhaps someone else can provide simple instructions on how to make and use a denim strop.

Finally, if you get to the point where your new razor does need to be honed on stone again, send the razor to @Doc226 (Alfredo). Alfredo is an excellent honer. Will cost you a few bucks but it would be well worth the cost to get an excellent edge. Hopefully, you will not need to do th is.

 

[SparkyLB]

Thank you both, @Titleist and @Frank Shaves!

 

[HazMat Shaver]

I want to point out one thing I think hasn't been brought up.
When shaving with a straight, and if the blade face is flat on your face, the blade can stick to your skin and not slide across as well or not at all. With a hollow ground razor if your skin is not tight and the lather is not slick enough your skin will fill the hollow in the face of the blade. This sticking can happen and will cause cuts. I always say to make sure you get as much water into your lather as the soap will hold. And raise the spine the least amount you can at first until you understand what your doing.
be careful and don't be afraid of the razor. Just give it the respect it deserves. Remember that it can take a finger off if you do something stupid so do ever try to catch it if it slips from your hand!

 

[Titleist]

Finally, if you get to the point where your new razor does need to be honed on stone again, send the razor to @Doc226 (Alfredo). Alfredo is an excellent honer. Will cost you a few bucks but it would be well worth the cost to get an excellent edge. Hopefully, you will not need to do th is.

Concur 100%. Alfredo has honed a few of mine when I first started out years ago. He also re-scaled a razor to perfection and, he was kind enough to personally evaluate and shave with one of my edges many years ago to give me his personal opinion and approval.

He and @Gamma are two Men that I respect a great deal when it comes to honing straight razors.

@SparkyLB, we both live in the same State. If you get stuck and need something, send me a PM and ask anything you want to. Of course the open forum here is the best place to ask questions. But, I'm here for you should you need help. I had several people do that for me ten years ago.

Slainte!

 

[Titleist]

With a hollow ground razor if your skin is not tight and the lather is not slick enough your skin will fill the hollow in the face of the blade.

All 100% true. That is why a proper slick/thin lather must be established and, skin stretching has to be learned.

 

[JPO]

So I weighed my options, and without lending any creedence to anyone's advice over anyone else's, (because I certainly don't know better), considering my balsa strops are ready to go, and I don't own a leather one yet-- I'm not in a financial position yet to get a leather strop, so my options were to forego using the straight until I got my leather strop (I see the value in this advice). . . or, well, you know. (Did I mention I'm a bit impulsive?)

In the spirit of shaving every day with my straight, (to build muscle memory), I used the 50K, 100K, 200K progression to the letter of the .pdf. When I was done, I could see a distinct bevel on each side that was about as perfectly uniform in thickness and brightness as if done by a robot. Again, if I only had a microscope!

The experience wasn't terribly different than yesterday's regarding the tugging, but I think it's just a matter of practice. The blade was tree-topping like gangbusters compared to before. I did my entire cheeks with the straight, as well as made my goatee vertical, ending E to W at the corners of my mouth. The goatee was previously about 1 1/2" to the L and R of that point. The new edge did not take well to the very full growth of the goatee and mustache, but I worked on it, and used XTG only in those two spots with the straight and it did fairly well.

I also used the straight to go up both sides and the front of my neck (WTG is up my neck), that went very well. It was almost on par with my safety razor.

After, I re-lathered and cleaned up everything. Hit myself with cold water and applied some after shave (Art of Shaving alcohol-free stuff) scent-free too.

The entire shave was nice and slow, and absolutely no incidents to report.

I suppose I'm a happy camper. I'm on my way.

The edge you got honed from the vendor came with a taller and more hollow bevel then you will be able to get on your balsa. What you are experiencing is that you are effectively changing the bevel height and thickness behind the edge. You are making the apex smaller by using your pasted balsa, but you are also giving up something.
Jarod have been honing razors for a long time. So the edge you got probably only needs a little stropping on leather, but might benefit from just a few strokes on your finest balsa.

If you have a really coarse beard, or you just do not like to prep to much a more flexible and keener (thinner bevel behind the apex) might help you.

I will give you one example. The feather pro blades are probably one of, if not the sharpest (small radius at the apex) blades you can use. The problem is that for me these blades tug on my beard. The reason is that the blade is thick and the bevel angle behind the apex is around 18-19 deg. The reason why even a arkansas edge can compete with the feather blade is because of the shallow angle (16-17 deg) and the thickness behind the apex. You have just tested this with your razor. If your 200000 girt balsa edge is not improving the edge, the edge you got finished of a convex stone is/was actually quite good.

If you just look at the flexibility of a bevel it is not linear. The bevel height is raised to the power of 3, while the bevel width is raised to the power of 4. Even a small change in any of these parameters will have a significant effect on the flexibility of your bevel. The apex is doing the cutting, but the flexibility also plays a role in how the razor shaves.

You had (you might still have some) a concave bevel plane, and you are working towards a convex bevel with your balsa. The only thing that is improving is the tip. A flat bevel is a nice compromise. By reducing the radius of your apex the edge also gets less skin friendly. So there definitely a compromise here. You have to find the sweet spot for you. Coarse beard and sensitive skin is probably the worst combination for a ultra sharp (less keen) balsa edge.
You are also taking away some of the unevenness along your edge by using balsa. This makes the edge smoother, but might not improve the cutting efficiency. This might be part of the reason why a quite ragged coticule edge can shave really well.

 

[SparkyLB]

JPO thank you so much. That makes perfect sense. Chances are I have not undone what Jarrod achieved because I have not thinned the blade behind the concave bevel enough to "reach" the edge. A leather strop will get to the edge, but a balsa one won't until enough material is removed to make "line of sight" between the very edge and the top of the bevel.

If I STOP right now, and go to leather (like EVERYONE is telling me to do!). I can true up/straighten Jarrods edge, (and the majority of folks have been telling me to do just this!) and I don't have to worry about ruining what he did. I undid nothing.

BTW, people have brought it up but I don't think I answered: I told Jarrod NOT to strop before sending the razor out; so the stars are all aligned if I transition to leather ONLY, right now, correct?

Everything is making sense.

 

[Frank Shaves]

BTW, people have brought it up but I don't think I answered: I told Jarrod NOT to strop before sending the razor out; so the stars are all aligned if I transition to leather ONLY, right now, correct?

Everything is making sense.

Thank you for clarifying this. Stropping on leather brings out the sharpness and smoothness in an edge. It's hard to explain. One of these things that you just have to experience.

 

[Chard52142]

Hi, @SparkyLB I've been reading this thread with great interest because I am also a beginner straight shaver. Your title got me really interested because my razor's edges are properly honed by some honemeister and I only maintain using the pasted balsa strop via my mentor @rbscebu instructions.

So far, I am still unable to get the results that I wanted but that's what makes it even more challenging...it just makes shaving a daily adventure...the strop on balsa then on leather then some testing (if I have time for straight shaving). My main issue is under the jawline and neck. No cuts but rather not cleanly shaved.

Anyway, what I want to say here is you could get good quality but very affordable strop in the US which I did (I'm in Malaysia).
It's a buffalo strop...really thick, & heavy but the surface is quite fast. I can definitely see my SR edges improved...
I like a TM strop too but the shipping is just too much. Maybe in the future

I did splurge and got myself a sweet deal of another legendary strop with almost free shipping...let's see how it goes

I agree with some of the above member's posts...Stropping on leather is just plain enjoyment! My wife thinks I possessed

I learn a lot from this reading thread and of course many others...thanks, everyone!

 

[JPO]

JPO thank you so much. That makes perfect sense. Chances are I have not undone what Jarrod achieved because I have not thinned the blade behind the concave bevel enough to "reach" the edge. A leather strop will get to the edge, but a balsa one won't until enough material is removed to make "line of sight" between the very edge and the top of the bevel.

If I STOP right now, and go to leather (like EVERYONE is telling me to do!). I can true up/straighten Jarrods edge, (and the majority of folks have been telling me to do just this!) and I don't have to worry about ruining what he did. I undid nothing.

BTW, people have brought it up but I don't think I answered: I told Jarrod NOT to strop before sending the razor out; so the stars are all aligned if I transition to leather ONLY, right now, correct?

Everything is making sense.

The concavity and extra length of you bevel is probably only a few microns in difference from a flat bevel, but it can make a difference. When you go from a convex surface to a hanging strop you do need to be a little more carful to avoid folding over your edge.

I have done calculations of the theoretical effects of these concave bevels. To be honest, the theory does not match with the practical results when shaving. I would really like to see an open minded discussion why there is difference here. It makes no sense just from the geometry. From that standpoint i really do understand the people who dismiss this. To be honest, i would to if i had not tested the concept.

The only explanation i see now is that the lower part of the bevel bends a little over the small contact point you are working over.

I hope it works out for you. It was not my intention to to derail your thread.