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Edge or Technique?

I shaved with a straight razor for the first time today. I purchased a good quality Dovo razor from a reputable vendor mentioned on this forum and elected to have the razor prepared to be "shave ready."

I prepared my whiskers in no rush and used a hot washcloth and plenty of very hot splashes of hot water before lathering with Proraso cream from a tube applied with a badger brush lathered in a bowl, then applied. I massaged it in, washed it off and repeated an application. After my face was good and slick, I used my dominant (left) hand to shave the same side of my face, stretching my skin with my right hand as done the usual way I've seen geofatboy do it.

The razor tugged quite a bit. With several passes I was able to do a somewhat spotty job of removing the stubble from both cheeks. On my left cheek I "sliced" myself, but hesitate to use that word, as it was only deep enough to show a cut was made in the skin. It was shallower than the translucent skin between layers of an onion. No blood was drawn, and I would call it nearly a non-issue. On the right side of my face with my non-dominant hand I did not cut myself, but again the shave was inconsistent and spotty. I finished with a safety razor.

So I ask, is it possible to experience tugging from poor technique? I would like to think it's not the blade. In any event, I'm prepared to work my way through this until I'm shaving with my straight razor with the same degree of adeptness than that of my safety razor.

Thank you everyone.
 
Can you describe what kind of angle you were shaving with? You mentioned stretching...make sure you are getting the skin as taut as you can.

Will the blade cut arm or leg hairs at 1/4 to 3/8" above the skin? Not exactly definitive but it's one indication of sharpness.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
Sounds like it's one or more of the following is the cause of your problem:
  • Excessive shaving pressure (pressure of edge against skin). The lighter the pressure, the closer the shave. Use just enough pressure to remove the lather.
  • Incorrect blade shave angle. Forget that 30° thing often mentioned on YouTube. The correct angle is about ½ to 1 spine thickness off the skin. The sharper the blade, the flatter the angle.
  • Incorrect stropping technique. Normally you shouldn't stop a shave-ready SR direct from a reputable honer. He should have stropped it properly before he shipped it to you. Those new to stropping SR's often round the edge. When stropping, hold the strop reasonably taut and strop with just the weight of the blade. Your should see almost no deflection in the strop while stropping.
  • The blade is not truly shave-ready. Send it out to a reputable honemeister who regularly SR shaves.
 
^^^^ this ^^^^

I lean more toward the blade angle but it's possible it's not honed properly. keeping the spine of the razor about one spine width away from the face is what is needed. Forget about any 30-degree angle that you have heard from GEOFATBOY. he is good but his angles are not right. One to two spine widths from the face and only enough pressure to shave off the lather.
good luck and don't give up!
 
Could be either, but here's some food for thought:

My first shave (and subsequent shaves) I thought the edge was dull too. It took a bunch of shaves for me to actually be satisfied with the closeness of each shave, but with improvement in technique it came over time. Frankly I think it took me well over a month to get comparable closeness to DE. Unsure what a normal timeframe is for that but it was what it was. Turns out that the original edge that I started on was actually quite sharp, and a lot sharper than I prefer nowadays compared to my own edges.
Really work on your pressure and shaving angle/skin stretching techniques. It's not unusual for new straight shavers to think their edge is dull at first. The blade is a lot larger and you're cutting more hair at one time.

Granted, the edge could be dull too. Poor stropping technique can roll an edge. Time will tell whether or not it's the edge or technique, but wouldn't be surprised if your shaves improve over time with that edge assuming you don't roll it.
 
Make sure your lather is slightly on the wetter side starting out, this allows the blade to glide across the skin cutting hairs with less tendency to bite. This buffer also reduces the blade drag/friction so less pressure is needed to cut hairs. I‘ve found lather can sometimes be the culprit rather than blade sharpness.
 
Generally I find the two biggest reasons for tugging while shaving is either a poor soap and / or poor lather, or a dull razor. A third factor is prep before the shave.

You mention having a safety razor and that is easily used to compare and check against your straight. I think double edge razors are the best comparison but a cartridge razor is also telling. Before starting shaving, grab your safety razor and wet it in hot water to prep. it. Then use the straight to make a pass on one cheek with the grain- if it pulls and leaves spotty shaved skin behind, pick up the safety razor, re-lather as needed and then make a pass WTG with the safety razor. Does it also tug, and if so, how much? Does it tug less than the straight and / or shave better? If there is a sizeable difference between your straight and a safety razor, odds are that the straight could use some edge refinement and is not sharp enough.

Again, simple strokes down your cheek(s), WTH, are the key here. Against the grain, under the chin, around and over the chin, etc. are all more involved, less tolerate strokes. But I find simple, WTG strokes really show differences between shaving edges.

This is a great reference IMO because everyone can easily get a safety razor for a reasonable price, and a pack or two of Feather blades can become sort of the marker for a good, sharp and quite smooth shave. Always go with the grain with both razors as against the grain is always a tough pass and the safety razor and the straight are of course different. But again, one stroke with the straight, WTG, and one stroke with the safety razor, WTG, even on the other side of your face will be very telling and can be used to test soap and lather quality, which prep. works best for your skin and beard and so forth.

As you progress with a straight, keep the safety razor and do this same test occasionally- with improvement in all aspects of straight shaving the difference between a very sharp safety razor and a straight will always serve to show you the difference(s) in the edge of a straight pretty easily and those differences will reduce over time. A great, cheap and consistent edge test anyone can do.
 
There is no official definition of "shave ready". A razor is shave ready if it is sharp enough to slice through YOUR beard. I like my straight razors to be super sharp and super smooth. Thus, I like honing them with a very fine grit hone PLUS further refining the edge with pasted strops down to 0.1 micron. Most people do not need razors to be that sharp, but some prefer that level of sharpness.

Find out which type of hone was used to finish your razor. Dovo used to use Coticules for finishing. While some people love a coticule edge, I never found one to be sharp enough for my beard.

Beard preparation also plays a role in shaving, especially straight razor shaving. Your beard must be clean and hydrated. Simply applying a hot washcloth might not be good enough. I like to shower and wash my face with the same shampoo that I use on my hair. That insures my beard is clean and well hydrated. It is possible to do that without showering, but you need to use something to wash your beard other than hot water. If you beard is dirty or oily, the water cannot penetrate the hair follicles. If the hairs are not properly hydrated, they will be far more difficult to cut.
 
Can you describe what kind of angle you were shaving with? You mentioned stretching...make sure you are getting the skin as taut as you can.

Will the blade cut arm or leg hairs at 1/4 to 3/8" above the skin? Not exactly definitive but it's one indication of sharpness.
As rbscebu states, and I've read it many times from him and others--I attempted to hold the spine no more than 1 spine width from my face. I watched the angle carefully and I did my best to remain nearly parallel to my face. Taking advice from many, I honestly did my best to "forget the 30° thing." Haven't tried the hairs on my arm, but will.
Sounds like it's one or more of the following is the cause of your problem:
  • Excessive shaving pressure (pressure of edge against skin). The lighter the pressure, the closer the shave. Use just enough pressure to remove the lather.
  • Incorrect blade shave angle. Forget that 30° thing often mentioned on YouTube. The correct angle is about ½ to 1 spine thickness off the skin. The sharper the blade, the flatter the angle.
  • Incorrect stropping technique. Normally you shouldn't stop a shave-ready SR direct from a reputable honer. He should have stropped it properly before he shipped it to you. Those new to stropping SR's often round the edge. When stropping, hold the strop reasonably taut and strop with just the weight of the blade. Your should see almost no deflection in the strop while stropping.
  • The blade is not truly shave-ready. Send it out to a reputable honemeister who regularly SR shaves.
I've been following your thoughts on the forum quite carefully. Stropping technique can be removed from the equation. I made it a point to receive the razor "shave ready" and did not dare touch it before use. I took this as a premise; to begin with a blade that was not ruined by an inexperienced newcomer such as myself.

I tried at the very beginning to use a feather light touch, but the blade was stopped dead by my whiskers causing me to fight the tug. This might be my mistake, but there's no substitute for experience--alas, something of which I have none. :)

The blade was prepared by Jarrod at The Superior Shave.com.


^^^^ this ^^^^

I lean more toward the blade angle but it's possible it's not honed properly. keeping the spine of the razor about one spine width away from the face is what is needed. Forget about any 30-degree angle that you have heard from GEOFATBOY. he is good but his angles are not right. One to two spine widths from the face and only enough pressure to shave off the lather.
good luck and don't give up!
done.

Perhaps it's something I'm not aware of. The above advice I heeded. As always, I appreciate everyone jumping in. I know I'll get through this.
 
Well, Jarrod has a reputation for a good edge. I'd look at making a wetter lather, stretching the skin like crazy, and using the lightest touch you can-- just aim to wipe the lather away. See how that goes for you and report back.
 
Could be either, but here's some food for thought:

My first shave (and subsequent shaves) I thought the edge was dull too. It took a bunch of shaves for me to actually be satisfied with the closeness of each shave, but with improvement in technique it came over time. Frankly I think it took me well over a month to get comparable closeness to DE. Unsure what a normal timeframe is for that but it was what it was. Turns out that the original edge that I started on was actually quite sharp, and a lot sharper than I prefer nowadays compared to my own edges.
Really work on your pressure and shaving angle/skin stretching techniques. It's not unusual for new straight shavers to think their edge is dull at first. The blade is a lot larger and you're cutting more hair at one time.

Granted, the edge could be dull too. Poor stropping technique can roll an edge. Time will tell whether or not it's the edge or technique, but wouldn't be surprised if your shaves improve over time with that edge assuming you don't roll it.
Thank you, Kyle.
Make sure your lather is slightly on the wetter side starting out, this allows the blade to glide across the skin cutting hairs with less tendency to bite. This buffer also reduces the blade drag/friction so less pressure is needed to cut hairs. I‘ve found lather can sometimes be the culprit rather than blade sharpness.
I'll do my best to work at super hydration.
Generally I find the two biggest reasons for tugging while shaving is either a poor soap and / or poor lather, or a dull razor. A third factor is prep before the shave.

You mention having a safety razor and that is easily used to compare and check against your straight. I think double edge razors are the best comparison but a cartridge razor is also telling. Before starting shaving, grab your safety razor and wet it in hot water to prep. it. Then use the straight to make a pass on one cheek with the grain- if it pulls and leaves spotty shaved skin behind, pick up the safety razor, re-lather as needed and then make a pass WTG with the safety razor. Does it also tug, and if so, how much? Does it tug less than the straight and / or shave better? If there is a sizeable difference between your straight and a safety razor, odds are that the straight could use some edge refinement and is not sharp enough.

Again, simple strokes down your cheek(s), WTH, are the key here. Against the grain, under the chin, around and over the chin, etc. are all more involved, less tolerate strokes. But I find simple, WTG strokes really show differences between shaving edges.

This is a great reference IMO because everyone can easily get a safety razor for a reasonable price, and a pack or two of Feather blades can become sort of the marker for a good, sharp and quite smooth shave. Always go with the grain with both razors as against the grain is always a tough pass and the safety razor and the straight are of course different. But again, one stroke with the straight, WTG, and one stroke with the safety razor, WTG, even on the other side of your face will be very telling and can be used to test soap and lather quality, which prep. works best for your skin and beard and so forth.

As you progress with a straight, keep the safety razor and do this same test occasionally- with improvement in all aspects of straight shaving the difference between a very sharp safety razor and a straight will always serve to show you the difference(s) in the edge of a straight pretty easily and those differences will reduce over time. A great, cheap and consistent edge test anyone can do.
Thanks, BDF. If I didn't mention, I only used the straight on my cheeks. Only attempted WTG. I did my entire neck with my Merkur DE, and "cleaned up" my cheeks to BBS with my Merkur DE as well. There was no drag or reluctance with that blade, nor has there ever been. That DE shaves very close. There is indeed a sizeable difference between my straight and my safety razor--but I've been using it for 30 years.

Despite my efforts I have to accept it is either the blade, or the angle. I did my best to maintain that "single spine" angle, but will accept that I might not have done that as well as I could have. I will certainly practice. Thanks for the reply.
 
Find out which type of hone was used to finish your razor. Dovo used to use Coticules for finishing. While some people love a coticule edge, I never found one to be sharp enough for my beard.
From his description (I don't know what a Coticule is), the job is started on a stone with a 6 foot radius, and finished on a stone with a 2 foot radius (I'm going from memory, and it might be the other way around; but it's those two radii.)

He also strives to create a hollow grind at the very tip, like a chisel sharpened on a rotating stone.

BTW, I just ran the blade over my forearm hairs about 1/4" away from the skin. It cut a very small percentage of the hairs with quite a bit of tugging. Is this undesirable? There were perhaps 10 hairs on the blade, I blew it clean, folded the blade and placed it back in the box. I then rubbed my forearm over the sink and another dozen or so hairs fell from my arm.
 
Well, Matt, given the choices of
1. That's a terrible edge, or
2. It's all you--Practice up!

I'm all over the second one. I'm very aware that at 56 years old, the first time using a straight razor is not the time to expect miracles.

In a day or two my balsa strip strops at 50K, 100K and 200K will be "cured" and after I get further instructions, I will run the blade through those 3 as directed on the "how to use. . . ." thread (or .pdf), and go from there. I'm sure I'll receive some pearls of wisdom while I wait.

Again, thank you everyone. I'm very grateful for this resource!
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
Sounds like you have been doing all that should be done. Keep at it. You will improve.

Before your next SR shave, 24 hours after your first, strop the blade very carefully on clean taut leather with blade-only pressure about 50 to 60 laps. Shave with a wetter lather and concentrate.

Things will improve for you. Trust me, I'm an engineer 😁.

Let us know how things progress for you.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
I tried at the very beginning to use a feather light touch, but the blade was stopped dead by my whiskers causing me to fight the tug. This might be my mistake, but there's no substitute for experience--alas, something of which I have none. :)
....
There are two components of pressure when shaving. There is the pressure used to cut the whisker which is pressure (force) parallel to the skins. Then there is the pressure of the edge against the skin which is pressure perpendicular to the skin.

When we say "very light" or "almost no" pressure when SR shaving, we are talking about the pressure of the edge against (perpendicular to) the skin. You may still need some pressure (force) parallel to the skin to cut your whiskers, however with a really good edge this pressure should only need to be minimal.
 
Spline distance and shave angle are slightly subjective based the edge. Freehand honing can give a slight variation on the optimum cutting angle 📐 so experiment on the hold. I can tell you the blade barely touches my face at about a 20-30 angle and it’s ready to shave a month old beard off with the slightest of blade pressure. Think of a butter knife gliding through soft butter pressure.
 
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