What's new

Adventures in Japanese natural honing.

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
I have never owned any stone too big to hold in hand, except for my granite surface plate. If it was only 10 or 15 lbs I would hold that in hand, too. Don't let any reasonable weight dissuade you from honing in hand.
 
As to the corner on the heel of the razor, this is preferable to me and I use it as I have a beard and that heel makes a great way to get into corners. One of the attractions of this blank shape from T.I., and if (or is it when) I buy another, I will choose one with a crisp, sharp heel. It is not dangerous and easily muted and I do not want to round that corner.”

You are missing the point about the heel. The heel corner needs to be moved away from the stabilizer, so that the bevel sits flat on the hone. Most, probably all your issues are caused by honing on the stabilizer.

Note the photo below of a new TI Sonnant, note how far away the heel corner is from the stabilizer, also note the distance from the edge to the blade face etching/paint. A considerable amount of blade width has been ground away, that caused your spike heel. Your blade width and heel corner were probably very similar originally, they do not come with spike heels. As the blade width was ground away, the heel corner moved closer to the stabilizer.

Now you could only hone that razor heel, with a heel forward stroke, to avoid the stabilizer, or correct the heel. You can create a sharp heel profile and still correct the heel by honing a slanted heel like the one in the photo below. This is a common heel style on many Western Japanese style razors

The problem is not the stone, it is that the heel needs to be moved away from the stabilizer. TI’s may be a bit harder, but not that much harder, that any decent stone will not hone them, maybe a few extra laps.

ThiersIssard2 .png
 
So I ran a second Gold Dollar through the sequence, starting with setting the bevel (again this was not done sufficiently a decade ago when the razor was new) all the way through diluted slurries on my Jnat. The edge looks great and after stropping is tree topping pretty well. Also shaves with no effort (dry, on arm, not an actual shaving test). It is in the que for a test- shave.

A quick question for you Jnat folks: I am raising a slurry with a 1200 grit Atoma. I bought this new a couple of months ago and it is certainly not worn out. I am doing 'X' strokes and figure 8's to raise the slurry with the majority of the Atoma movement in- line with the long axis of the Jnat. Does this make any difference? Does the Jnat become any more aggressive if the Atoma is used in a more side- to- side motion? I do not see any pattern at all on the Jnat and it actually has a bit of a sheen but I thought I would ask.....
 

Kentos

B&B's Dr. Doolittle.
Staff member
It might, it might not. But with Jnats I always tried for a very smooth surface on the main rock and rely on nagura for slurry/abrasives. When raising slurry for the finishing a tomonagura is my preference, mainly to preserve the main stone. YMMV
 
“Does the Jnat become any more aggressive if the Atoma is used in a more side- to- side motion?’

NO.

“I do not see any pattern at all on the Jnat and it actually has a bit of a sheen but I thought I would ask.....”

Jnat stone face or slurry is not dependent on the Diamond plate grit size or how the base stone is surfaced. The slurry and stone face break down quickly. Diamond Jnat slurry is very friable and will break down in a few laps and any groves made in the base stone smooth out quickly.

In other words, a 300-grit diamond plate will not produce 300 grit size slurry. A 300-grit plate will produce larger slurry than a 1200 plate, but both will break down in a short time and produce the same bevel polish.

It is not like conditioning a hard Ark, where stone face preparation can make the stone perform very differently depending on how the face is prepared.

Nagura add additional grit, that grit can act synergistically with the base stone grit to produce a Cocktail of slurry that can be tailored to a razor or edge.

You can tailor diamond slurry aggressiveness, somewhat, by the quantity and thickness of the slurry and refreshed by adding new slurry, or polish by working/thinning the slurry, but not the same wider range, like using nagura.
 
21 Nov. 2021 update: just finished shaving with a T.I. finished on pasted balsa and with a Gold Dollar finished on my Jnat. All the 'tests' I do showed the T.I. a lot sharper, starting with the tree- topping tests. But after putting the blades to my face, the G.D. actually shaved as close as the T.I. and left a no- sting face behind! Outstanding shave. Unfortunately the G.D. was not as sharp at the tip so all detail work had to be done with the T.I. This is my fault as the razor could use a bit more geometry fixing but I knew that going into this shave.

Now the next step is to dull and re-hone both G.D. I have been testing on and to see if I can do it again. And if not, perhaps learn a bit more about why not.

Anyway, thanks for the help and advise, especially you two 'honing guys' (you know who you are). I believe the collective experience, honing videos and many, many posts saved me a LOT of time getting to this first excellent shave. Of course I am not done learning the ways of rock- rubbing but this milestone is really appreciated as it gives an entire new view on Jnat honing.... it is impossible to keep throwing bowling balls and keep a good and positive attitude toward bowling.
 
Been a while but I am again getting back into honing on a Jnat. And the honing is getting better! I am learning to control torque and have started to concentrate on different parts of the razor. I have several razors, all vintage German or American, that have slight smiles and between an OK executed rolling stroke, and now concentrating on the 'main' razor but they putting some laps on the last inch or so toward the toe, it is working pretty well. I can generate what I would call a shaving edge that is OK to use and does not rip skin off my face but they are certainly not the equal of the better honing fork using Jnats. One thing that lags is the ability to hold the razor flat on the hone using only one hand- it tends to lift the toe or dig the toe in just a bit too much. So I am often using both hands as a crutch. But still, overall is it an interesting journey and I am finding it almost soothing and very pleasant now that I can achieve at least a somewhat sharp edge. Not able to achieve an edge good enough for a good kitchen knife is exasperating after a while. So now I am up to 'not embarrassing' when honing on a Jnat..... and am still hoping that a fine shaving edge, or better, lurks somewhere in the future. Also using razors with good or even better geometry makes the whole process much more achievable in my experience. Using vintage razors and taping the spine with Kapton 1 mil tape (yeah I know, a sin against man and nature) allows a lot of honing without taking a lot of steel from the razors. Spreading the honing across eight or ten razors really does reduce the wear on each one while also allowing me to learn some different techniques as the razors, while very similar, are all unique.

As always, thanks to all those who have shared their knowledge, skill and experience both here in the typed word as well as in videos. I have found that honing a bit while trying to note the trouble spots followed by re-viewing several honing videos really does help.
 
Quick question for you Jnat folks- I have a very hard Jnat and a small stone that looks identical to the honing stone for bringing up a slurry. Simple enough, rub the small stone on the large one until a slurry forms. Watching videos it appears others just lay the small stone flat and rub it around. When I try to do this the small stone sticks to the big stone w/in 1/2" of movement. To raise a slurry I have to raise the stone slightly so it only touches along an edge rather than the face of the small stone. Is this what everyone is doing, 'cause it does not look so in the honing videos? BTW the slurry stone is not one of those soft stones with an odd shape like most rubbing stone but rather a small cube of Nakayama.
 
Quick question for you Jnat folks- I have a very hard Jnat and a small stone that looks identical to the honing stone for bringing up a slurry. Simple enough, rub the small stone on the large one until a slurry forms. Watching videos it appears others just lay the small stone flat and rub it around. When I try to do this the small stone sticks to the big stone w/in 1/2" of movement. To raise a slurry I have to raise the stone slightly so it only touches along an edge rather than the face of the small stone. Is this what everyone is doing, 'cause it does not look so in the honing videos? BTW the slurry stone is not one of those soft stones with an odd shape like most rubbing stone but rather a small cube of Nakayama.
Just round one of the sides with a diamond plate, then use that side. Tilt the nagura a little off the stone. I cut some groves in one of mine. That was a mistake for me.
 

Kentos

B&B's Dr. Doolittle.
Staff member
Go slow when making slurry as I tend to scratch the main stone if I’m not careful, or there are inclusions in my slurry.
 
I've never used a very hard stone where I've particularly liked the tomo. Though if you want to - I'd soak the nagura for about ten mins (which is perhaps what Steve suggested above), and I'd also convex it slightly at the edges, as JPO suggested.
 
Quick question for you Jnat folks- I have a very hard Jnat and a small stone that looks identical to the honing stone for bringing up a slurry. Simple enough, rub the small stone on the large one until a slurry forms. Watching videos it appears others just lay the small stone flat and rub it around. When I try to do this the small stone sticks to the big stone w/in 1/2" of movement. To raise a slurry I have to raise the stone slightly so it only touches along an edge rather than the face of the small stone. Is this what everyone is doing, 'cause it does not look so in the honing videos? BTW the slurry stone is not one of those soft stones with an odd shape like most rubbing stone but rather a small cube of Nakayama.
Keep them both wet for a while to help soften the binder material. With a hard tomo, I lap a curve into one end so I can tilt it up without scratching the base stone. Once you get some slurry showing, it will act as a lubricant and you can lay the tomo flat if you want.
 
Thanks for the advice folks. I did find soaking the rubbing stone does help but not eliminate the sticking.

A bit of soap also helps but again, not 100%

Yesterday while rocking the rubbing stone up off the honing stone a bit, I found an inclusion in the corner of the rubbing stone and dug two grooves into the Jnat. Not a big deal as they are in the same direction as honing but they are pretty deep. Of course I did take the edges of the rubbing stone down to get rid of that inclusion as well as rounding all edges a bit.

Honing with a Jnat reminds me of the old expression: 'Inside of every big problem is a small (or several small) problems waiting to get out.'. I am not knocking Jnats and in fact am still enjoying this journey along with being able to achieve OK shaving edges regularly now but it certainly is a winding road to the destination.... assuming it even has a destination. Quite the opposite of using pasted balsa where one can achieve very good to excellent results immediately though it is not particularly therapeutic or instilling any sense of accomplishment as a Jnat (and I expect other natural stones) do. They are also much easier to use than, say, lapping film I find; this is not to say they are easy to get a great edge but they are easier to set up and use- splash on some water, raise a slurry and hone away. Film by comparison takes a bit to set up, clean the film and the substrate used and always having to chase cleanliness, especially regarding any tiny amount of debris under the film. A rock is.... well it is a rock and requires no attention and little care to set up and use.
 
“The hen is the wisest of all the animal creation, because she never cackles until the egg is laid.”
A. Lincoln

So I am going to violate that very wise thought and cackle a bit early: Used the 'other' side of my Jnat today to hone a Red Injun. This is the softer and possibly coarser side of the stone that was not meant to be used and was coated in lacquer when I acquired it. For whatever reason, I am finding it yields a better edge than the harder, probably finer side, at least early in the learning curve for me. After some time on linen and a very hard horse butt strop, it tree- tops, or arm hair tests extremely well, easily a half- inch from the skin. Color me tickled! Of course I have not shaved with it yet but otherwise all things point to a very sharp razor. I will get back after tomorrow's shave and eat crow if it turns out to be a lousy shaver but right this moment I am basking in the glow of what does seem to be an excellent edge from a Jnat.
 

Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
If the nagura tips it will scratch the stone, even if the corners are rounded. If you’re going to use a rounded surface to raise slurry, the ‘slope’ needs ro be 1/3 ro 1/2 the width of the nagura.

You can also use the nagura ‘corner to corner’ to help prevent tipping.

C69C01BC-985E-44E1-9D40-3CB3D679266F.jpeg
 
Last edited:
To Steve and the others who suggest wetting both stones (honing stone and slurry stone) well before trying to raise a slurry: Thanks! Worked great after I figured out I had to let them hydrate for more than 30 seconds. And at first I was just making a puddle on the honing stone and flopping the slurry stone in that puddle. That ain't it- the whole honing stone has to be well hydrated. So after soaking the honing stone and setting the slurry stone on top, with the entire surface of the honing stone having standing water on it.... viola! It still drags a bit but nothing like the epoxy stick I was experiencing before. Fortunately, I only have one or two deep scratches on the Jnat, from using the edge of the slurry stone, that will hang around for a while but they are in the direction of honing so no matter.

Again guys, thanks! That advice was spot on.

Make sure that both stones are well hydrated - if they’re absorbing water, they’ll stick together.
 
To Steve and the others who suggest wetting both stones (honing stone and slurry stone) well before trying to raise a slurry: Thanks! Worked great after I figured out I had to let them hydrate for more than 30 seconds. And at first I was just making a puddle on the honing stone and flopping the slurry stone in that puddle. That ain't it- the whole honing stone has to be well hydrated. So after soaking the honing stone and setting the slurry stone on top, with the entire surface of the honing stone having standing water on it.... viola! It still drags a bit but nothing like the epoxy stick I was experiencing before. Fortunately, I only have one or two deep scratches on the Jnat, from using the edge of the slurry stone, that will hang around for a while but they are in the direction of honing so no matter.

Again guys, thanks! That advice was spot on.

Good stuff! I soak pretty much all nagura and slurry stones for at least 20 mins personally. I find them much easier to use that way.
 
Made me a holder for my Moughton, not completely perfect but ok for a first go, so gonna use for a bit of polishing later to celebrate. Other stones in the pic are Debado 600 and King 800.

IMG-5854.jpg


IMG-5859.JPG




IMG-5870.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: JPO
Top Bottom