Search for most simple progression

[Jakebullet]

I started my honing on lapping films,

they were reliable and consistent and I could get a whole progression from bevel setter to finisher and everything in between for very little money.

On the downside they swarf up quite readily, need replacing regularly and have to be measured and cut to fit my acrylic block. Then there’s all the messing about with air bubbles and little tiny creases and folds that tend to pop up here and there in the film which I need to avoid with the razor. It’s a nuisance.

I started to finish my razors on natural stones for these reasons but kept the films for repair work or for when I periodically took my razors back to 5k, 8k, to give the edge a nice deep refresh before going to the finisher.

It caught my attention therefore, when I saw an ad on ETSY for a ‘King KDS 1K 6K combination stone.

The seller was John Fitzgerald who I’d also bought my lovely Kitta Jnat from a while back.

John said that this combination stone would be perfect for a bevel setter and for the type of deeper refresh I was looking for.

He told me that the 6k side was very smooth and that a razor would comfortably go from 1k bevel set straight to the 6k then from there straight to any finisher I wanted to use.

This sounded ideal, a cheap combo stone which could take my razor from bevel set, through a progression leaving it close enough to make the leap to my finishers.

So I bought it and tried sharpening a couple of my kitchen knives on it.

It seemed fine so this week I thought I’d take one of my Gold Dollar 66’s all the way back to the 1k and work my way up.

The 1K side is a water stone and needs 10mins of soaking and the 6K side is a splash and go.

I used a lighted jewellers loupe to check the scratch pattern along the way.

I gave it 10-20 half strokes each side on the 1k side then began about 50-60 lightening x strokes.

I felt a smoothness at around 10-20 x’s and lightened right up.

Next I went to the 6k and did similar except I probably did around 100 x strokes as I wanted to be sure I’d removed all the 1k scratches.

This wasn’t all that obvious through the loupe as the edge looked frosty and I couldn’t see any scratches in any direction.

The 6k felt very smooth and my last 20 laps were extremely light.

Next I slurried up my jnat with its nagura and gave it around 150 laps I’d guess on slightly diluting slurry.

I usually need around 50 laps but I thought I’d do more as I was coming up from 6k.

Again the edge just looked misty/frosty under the loupe and I couldn’t see any individual scratches but everything I could see looked nice and neat and no issues stood out.

Next I gave it 40 laps on linen and about 80 on leather.

The next morning before the shave I tried a HHT but it wasn’t really happening so I gave it more stropping but it wasn’t really catching the hanging hair.

I wasn’t too worried knowing that the shave test is the one that matters.

The shave was good but not great, but at least it shaved.

The razor was sharp but on the bottom rung or two of my acceptability ladder.

I pondered my next move.

Should I go all the way back to the 1k 6k progression?

Or should I just take it back to a diamond slurry on the jnat, then finish on a Nagura slurry?

Or should I just repeat yesterdays finishing on the jnat and Nagura slurry and take a little more time and care?

I went for this last option and spent around 10 mins on the Jnat with slurry taking good care.

This morning I shaved with it again.

A big improvement on yesterday. The shave was quick and smooth and now easily on the middle rung of my acceptability ladder.

I can get it a little sharper again if I go back to the jnat I feel so I may give it one more go.

But for the time being my honing set up is now pretty much complete.

Using one combo stone and a finisher I can set bevels, fix small chips and bring a razor from dull to shave ready.

I can also keep my kitchen knives sharp on them.

 

[Herrenberg]

I have read a lot of respect for the King 1000, which I share. Never put a razor on one, but wore through one sharpening chisels and plane blades, a long time ago.

I have read zero respect for the King 6000, which I also share. It's the only sharpening stone that I have thrown away, after many attempts to make it do anything well.

 

[Steve56]

Shapton Glass HR 2k, Shapton Glass HC 6k, JNat.

If you’re not doing much bevel work, the Shapton Glass HR 4k and Shapton Glass 8k also work fine bevore a JNat. The 4k HR is a fast stone.

 

[Kyle89]

Living in an NYC apartment without a workbench makes me appreciate the idea of a simple setup.

Putting more time into that combo to really learn how to squeeze out as much as you can from the 1k/6k will probably yield improvements, unless that 6k really is that bad haha. No experience with one myself.

It would be interesting to read your findings upon further use/experimentation.

 

[alex1921]

I followed Steve's advice here and got the Shaptons last summer. Yeah, pretty good.

 

[lightfoot]

I’ve actually been experimenting with the King 1200 and 6000 stones although I don’t have the combo. I’m planning to grab the Ice Bear 10,000 tomorrow but in the meantime I’ve been going 1200, 6000, to the Norton 8000 just to see what I could come up with. Shaving off the Norton was plausible and not at all uncomfortable but it was just missing something. I did 10 or so strokes on a piece of wood loaded with a very light application of CrOx and that helped the shave. Quite good in fact. That being said, I want to see what kind of shave the King Ice Bear 10,000 has to offer…

 

[buca3152]

If you end up buying ebay specials you need more than a simple process. But for maintenance? I use generally one stone and a tomo or diamond plate slurry. What was said about film I found to be true as well. What you save in money you lose in time. But that's for everyone to determine.

 

[global_dev]

To me simple is no muss no fuss, just easy and relaxing. So my response is to add the progression hones that make it easy up to the point of the finishers.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

The King stones are under rated. I have all the big guns, but frequently set bevels on a King 1k, jump to a King 6k and finish on a Jnat with smoking silky shaving edges.

If you look at edges with magnification, you will see that edges do not get really straight until after 8k. There is a big difference in edge straightness between a 6 and 8k edge, if you are shaving off that edge. If you are not shaving off that edge, it does not matter, 6k is plenty straight enough to finish on a Jnat easily.

But you should be able to easily go from a 1k edge to a Jnat with diamond slurry, (about 50 laps to remove all the 1k slurry and finish to a high level by thinning slurry, or higher with Tomo nagura.

My go-to dirt simple usual progression is bevel set on a King 1k, jump straight to a Naniwia Snow White, 8k, (that can produce a near mirror finish in about 50 laps), then finish on a Jnat with a Tsushima slurry and Tomo slurry.

Take a look at Alex Gilmore’s “Ax Method” for a super simple, effective Jnat “Progression”, Some stropping between stones on linen also helps, a lot.

A Tsushima nagura is also a game changer, for removing 1k slurry easily or setting, refreshing and establishing a Kazumi bevel and straight edge quickly, $20-30.

 

[cotedupy]

Q. for OP and others...

King stones, particularly the mid grits (800, 1k, 1.2k) change quite drastically depending on the length of the soak. And for knives are wildly better with long - 3hr+ soaks, or permasoaking which is what I do.

But when I've used mine for bevel setting on razors I've found it a little tricky to remove scratch patterns after them. This could just be that all synth scratches are going to take some time if jumping to a natural after? Or might it be that a shorter soak would be better for razors? How long do you soak yours for?

 

[Legion]

Q. for OP and others...

King stones, particularly the mid grits (800, 1k, 1.2k) change quite drastically depending on the length of the soak. And for knives are wildly better with long - 3hr+ soaks, or permasoaking which is what I do.

But when I've used mine for bevel setting on razors I've found it a little tricky to remove scratch patterns after them. This could just be that all synth scratches are going to take some time if jumping to a natural after? Or might it be that a shorter soak would be better for razors? How long do you soak yours for?

For razors I only soaked mine until the bubbles stopped coming up, maybe half an hour. I don't know if that is best practice or not, but I'm impatient so that's what I did, and it seemed to work.

 

[Jakebullet]

Q. for OP and others...

King stones, particularly the mid grits (800, 1k, 1.2k) change quite drastically depending on the length of the soak. And for knives are wildly better with long - 3hr+ soaks, or permasoaking which is what I do.

But when I've used mine for bevel setting on razors I've found it a little tricky to remove scratch patterns after them. This could just be that all synth scratches are going to take some time if jumping to a natural after? Or might it be that a shorter soak would be better for razors? How long do you soak yours for?

That’s a new idea to me, I never thought that changing the soaking time would affect the results, I typically soak it for 10 mins.

 

[Tomo]

I echo your thoughts on the films.

I’ve switched to a Shapton glass progression for speed and convenience. Shapton 1k HR, 3k HR, 8k HC will take you to any natural finisher.

I’ve heard good things about the King 1k and look forward to trying one.

 

[JPO]

A fast coticule would probably be nice to use after the 6k or even instead of the 6k.

 

[Jakebullet]

Feeling that this razor, stone and I had unfinished business, I tried again.
I wanted to achieve a better edge so decided to repeat the whole progression but with a little difference.

I took my Gold Dollar back to the King 1k, then instead of going to the 6k I went straight to a diamond slurry on my jnat and then to a Nagura slurry.

I diluted the diamond slurry maybe 4 times through about 100-150ish laps then washed the stone and made a nagura slurry for finishing.

I did about 100-150 laps on this slurry, again with 3-4 dilutions. At the end the slurry was pretty watery.

I shaved with it this morning and have to say it’s an excellent edge by my usual standards, definitely one of my better efforts and about as sharp and smooth as I’ve ever had this Gold Dollar.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

You should be able to remove all 1k stria in about 50 laps with diamond slurry. Once you have removed all the 1k stria, a few more laps can refine the edge nicely, then finish on a nagura in about another 50 laps. From a 6 or 8k finishing on the Kita should go quicker and get the edge straighter quicker.

That you can develop a good shaving edge from a 1k, puts you light years ahead of the game, now just tweak it to get consistently good edges and your edges will continue to improve as you learn your stone.

I do not soak my 1k, I dunk in a tub of clean water and flood with a squirt bottle. If you are using a spray bottle you will probably need to soak. Try jointing the edge after the 1k and again before your final nagura. It will give you a straighter edge.

 

[relli1130]

If you are searching for the most simple progression, I think you need to reconsider synthetics. Because a synthetic progression requires multiple stones (1k, 4k, 8k, 12k etc.). Then researching stones, experimenting with different brands, choosing the ones you like etc.

If simple is what you are after, just get a good 1k (I like Cerax and Chosera), then get a good jnat. Or perhaps a coticule. Heck you can even use a Thuringian post 1k and get a shave ready edge. Buy from a reputable seller, and you should be ok. Oh, also make sure you have a 400/1000 diamond lapping plate...

A quality jnat will erase all 1k scratches and refine the edge wonderfully with a kasumi finish. A quality coticule can also refine a 1k edge nicely and provide a shave ready edge, but will still have a distinct scratch pattern. So only two stones are necessary - bevel set 1k and jnat or coticule. Or maybe Thuringian.

Lately, I set a bevel on my 1k, jnat to erase all scratches (at which point the razor is shave ready), then choose my final finisher. Could be an Ark, a Thrui/escher, a coticule, or other jnat. So the 1k sets the bevel, the jnat bridges the gap between bevel set and shave ready and that's it.

 

[Jakebullet]

If you are searching for the most simple progression, I think you need to reconsider synthetics. Because a synthetic progression requires multiple stones (1k, 4k, 8k, 12k etc.). Then researching stones, experimenting with different brands, choosing the ones you like etc.

If simple is what you are after, just get a good 1k (I like Cerax and Chosera), then get a good jnat. Or perhaps a coticule. Heck you can even use a Thuringian post 1k and get a shave ready edge. Buy from a reputable seller, and you should be ok. Oh, also make sure you have a 400/1000 diamond lapping plate...

A quality jnat will erase all 1k scratches and refine the edge wonderfully with a kasumi finish. A quality coticule can also refine a 1k edge nicely and provide a shave ready edge, but will still have a distinct scratch pattern. So only two stones are necessary - bevel set 1k and jnat or coticule. Or maybe Thuringian.

Lately, I set a bevel on my 1k, jnat to erase all scratches (at which point the razor is shave ready), then choose my final finisher. Could be an Ark, a Thrui/escher, a coticule, or other jnat. So the 1k sets the bevel, the jnat bridges the gap between bevel set and shave ready and that's it.

Thanks for all the replies they’re all very helpful.
Would I use a coticule after the 1k in the same way I used the jnat?
I.E, raise a diamond slurry on the coti then thin it then say finish on plain water like I usually would with my coti?

 

[relli1130]

Thanks for all the replies they’re all very helpful.
Would I use a coticule after the 1k in the same way I used the jnat?
I.E, raise a diamond slurry on the coti then thin it then say finish on plain water like I usually would with my coti?

Yes, you can absolutely try that. Make sure your bevel is properly set off the 1k. Then raise your coticule slurry. Proceed with half strokes or round trips or whatever you like to do. Inspect your edge and ensure you've erased the 1k scratches and established a new pattern. Then remove half the slurry, and add water. Continue honing and repeat with inspection. Then remove 1/2 the slurry again and continue honing. Repeat the process until you're down to clear water. 10-15 round trips on clear water and then I like to finish with water and a spritz of dawn water from a spray bottle. The lubrication seems to reduce the cutting speed of the garnets, and less friction seems to equate to further refinement or burnishing. 20 more laps and the edge is highly polished and apex very refined. Only way to know what will work for you is practice.

 

[JPO]

Thanks for all the replies they’re all very helpful.
Would I use a coticule after the 1k in the same way I used the jnat?
I.E, raise a diamond slurry on the coti then thin it then say finish on plain water like I usually would with my coti?

I would avoid using a diamond plate to generate slurry. The coticule garnets do not brake down the same way as jnat slurry. By using a diamond plate to generate slurry you are working with fractured garnets that will cut a little different. It also depends on what type of coticule you have. The really hard coticules may need to be conditioned a little with a slurry stone to smooth out after they are lapped with a diamond plate. Others you can lap and just use with a little slurry and they will finish just fine. A diamond plate can be used to condition the surface to make the stone cut a little faster from the beginning, but i would rinse the stone and create a slurry with a slurry stone. You do not want a paste like slurry in my opinion. If your bevel is set from the 1k, all you need is a light milky slurry if the stone is fast enough. You can always do two slurry dilutions.
You have to figure out how to use that particular stone you get/have.
Are you planning to use it as a midrange stone before going to the jnat or as a midrange and finisher?
If you use it before the jnat all you need is a light tomo slurry on your jnat.