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Is it me or the razor…….probably me…..

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
I very much agree with what @Slash McCoy has said above. A SR is a tool with which to shave and spine wear is just part of the result of bevel/edge maintenance. Under normal maintenance, blade edge and spine should wear about evenly. That keeps the bevel angle constant throughout the life of the blade.

Be that as it may and not withstanding the foregoing, honing with a taped spine when you need to remove a lot of metal before actually getting to set the bevel is preferred by me. It does slightly increase the bevel angle that you would have developed if you had not use tape initially.

I would rather first hone with tape (initially) and then see if the bevel angle was to my liking. If I then found that the bevel angle was too obtuse for my liking, I would then hone with a taped edge to reduce the spine thickness to my preferred calculated bevel angle. I believe that this gives me more control over the final result.
 
“If you want spine and edge to agree, you will WANT to remove some steel from the spine.”

Perhaps, unless the cause of the razor not sitting on the stone is a heel that needs correction and there is no warp. Even if there is a warp, you do not need to grind the spine to hone the razor.

A rolling X stroke is all you need and no excessive wear to the spine need be done.

A photo of the razor would remove all doubt, then the O/P could be better advised.
 
When the edge and spine are not straight and not parallel, there are two ways of looking at it. The edge is wrong. Or the spine is wrong. Most often it is both. If you want spine and edge to agree, you will WANT to remove some steel from the spine. There is a compulsive obsession going around about "hone wear" on the spine. In excess, it is bad. By "in excess" I mean grinding and grinding away at the spine with no steel removed from the edge. But normally the edge and spine wear together, proportionally, and that's what you want. Read all about it right here on B&B. I am not going to bother with my standard arguments, except that I urge you to REALLY THINK about what happens when you grind away steel from the edge while protecting the spine. Steel DOES get removed from the edge. If this did not happen, your razor could never get sharp. But you don't SEE the edge wear. It just goes away. That steel that is removed leaves no evidence behind. When you remove steel from the spine, you get a flat bevel facet on the spine that can't be ignored and OH NO! SPINE WEAR!!!!! But let me shut up about that. Please, feel free to listen to the howls of outrage saying I am just WRONG. Listen to them. The more you listen to the tape zealots, the more common sense and logic will speak to you.
Yeah, I tend to agree with you. The only case I could make for tape would be on a wedge, or near wedge, which I’m about to undertake. And then, I might use tape to set the bevel, then remove the tape and finish setting the bevel again without it. I really don’t want to have to screw with tape every time I hone one of my razors from my quickly growing collection. I don’t think I‘ll be using tape on my hollows though, because I agree that to maintain geometry, steel would have to be removed from the spine as well as the edge. Or pretty soon, you’d end up with a near wedge when you started off with a hollow grind! :) Of cause the more I hone, the more I learn about what to look for in buying vintage razors. Like you said in another post, electrical tape hasn‘t been around all that long so every razor before that was honed without it.
 
Somebody with more patience than me should experiment to see how long it takes, say, to hone 1mm off a razor. My experience has been that once you have a rudimentary bevel set, steel doesn't come off all that fast unless you're actively trying to remove it.

I don't have a razor in front of me but napkin math tells me 1mm would represent about a degree of bevel angle on a 13/16 blade assuming the spine is taped.
 
Somebody with more patience than me should experiment to see how long it takes, say, to hone 1mm off a razor. My experience has been that once you have a rudimentary bevel set, steel doesn't come off all that fast unless you're actively trying to remove it.

I don't have a razor in front of me but napkin math tells me 1mm would represent about a degree of bevel angle on a 13/16 blade assuming the spine is taped.
Yep, I’d like to know the answer to that as well. But like you, I’m lacking in the patience department.
 
I very much agree with what @Slash McCoy has said above. A SR is a tool with which to shave and spine wear is just part of the result of bevel/edge maintenance. Under normal maintenance, blade edge and spine should wear about evenly. That keeps the bevel angle constant throughout the life of the blade.

Be that as it may and not withstanding the foregoing, honing with a taped spine when you need to remove a lot of metal before actually getting to set the bevel is preferred by me. It does slightly increase the bevel angle that you would have developed if you had not use tape initially.

I would rather first hone with tape (initially) and then see if the bevel angle was to my liking. If I then found that the bevel angle was too obtuse for my liking, I would then hone with a taped edge to reduce the spine thickness to my preferred calculated bevel angle. I believe that this gives me more control over the final result.
How do you fix one that's always been taped(it seems) and been honed a decent amount, to get it back to normal wear? Tape the edge and go to town on an india or refreshed washita to grind the spine? I hate the more obtuse angles, on both knives and razors. When I sharpen my edc I lay it near flat so it's almost resting on the spine. I hone knives the way i do true wedges and both are without tape. Just muscle memory, edge leading(barely) and touch.
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
How do you fix one that's always been taped(it seems) and been honed a decent amount, to get it back to normal wear? Tape the edge and go to town on an india or refreshed washita to grind the spine? I hate the more obtuse angles, on both knives and razors. When I sharpen my edc I lay it near flat so it's almost resting on the spine. I hone knives the way i do true wedges and both are without tape. Just muscle memory, edge leading(barely) and touch.
Taping the edge to grind down the spine is only needed if your bevel angle is too obtuse and you want to correct it. Otherwise dont bother, you are just opening up a can of worms. If the bevel angle is acceptable, and you want to hone without tape when the razor was previously honed with tape, just set the bevel without tape and proceed. Usually a few dozen laps on your normal bevel setter will be quite sufficient. Examine the bevel under a very bright light periodically as you go. Watch the new bevel face as it starts forming up high on the bevel, and gradually expands downward to the edge. You could use the burr method but I wouldn't. Not enough steel has to come off to justify that. Just hone. Done. Strop. Shave.
 
Taping the edge to grind down the spine is only needed if your bevel angle is too obtuse and you want to correct it. Otherwise dont bother, you are just opening up a can of worms. If the bevel angle is acceptable, and you want to hone without tape when the razor was previously honed with tape, just set the bevel without tape and proceed. Usually a few dozen laps on your normal bevel setter will be quite sufficient. Examine the bevel under a very bright light periodically as you go. Watch the new bevel face as it starts forming up high on the bevel, and gradually expands downward to the edge. You could use the burr method but I wouldn't. Not enough steel has to come off to justify that. Just hone. Done. Strop. Shave.
Yeah the angle on it feels off, it's very sharp but doesn't want to shave right.
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
Yeah the angle on it feels off, it's very sharp but doesn't want to shave right.
The Bevel Angle, Exposed and Revealed | Badger & Blade
Measure and calculate your bevel angle before you assume it is out of the normal range. The sweet spot is usually between 16.5 and 17 degrees but most razors can shave okay with +/- 1.5 degrees outside the sweet spot. Deliberate action to reduce spine thickness would really only be called for at above about 19 degrees, normally. The ZY-430 as I recall had a bevel angle of about 19 degrees but it could still be made to shave.
 
The Bevel Angle, Exposed and Revealed | Badger & Blade
Measure and calculate your bevel angle before you assume it is out of the normal range. The sweet spot is usually between 16.5 and 17 degrees but most razors can shave okay with +/- 1.5 degrees outside the sweet spot. Deliberate action to reduce spine thickness would really only be called for at above about 19 degrees, normally. The ZY-430 as I recall had a bevel angle of about 19 degrees but it could still be made to shave.
I guess I should kill the edge and start over, instead of trying to push it farther from where it's at. It was original sharpened on synth waterstones, which I absolutly hate the edge feel of, but that's just me. It was stropped on CrOx so it was smoothed out some but not what I like. I guess Ill kill it and go la veinette>la lune>black ark>charnley forest. Maybe start with an old washita if I decide to reset the bevel. I got a Tam O'shanter coming in the mail today maybe I'll play with that.
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
no need to "kill" it. Just measure and decide for sure one way or the other about the tape, and then hone hone hone.
 

Steve56

Ask me about shaving naked!
Listen to Brother Slash.

You can’t guess about bevel angle you have to measure.
It’s unlikely that the bevel angle alone is causing problems with most razors
 
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