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To Strop or Not to Strop - With Pasted Balsa Maintenance?

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
I don't know much about film/method edges but my hypothesis is the method/film edge is more fragile then edges people with stones use. I could see stropping without perfect form causing the edge to fall apart some. Compared to a non stropped edge from the method/film edge being already somewhat aligned from the method to get it there. I could see that leading to the non stropped razor doing better than the stropped one.
These two SR's are not finished on film. They are off whetstones and finished on diamond pasted balsa strops. They have been maintained on a 0.1μm diamond pasted hanging balsa strop after each and every shave for about 20 shaves each.
 
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Method edge is not more fragile than stone finished edge. Actually that doesn’t make any sense.
I think it does make sense. Not saying the edge will last a longer or shorter time, but the sharper it gets the more thin (and brittle/fragile) the edge becomes.

These two SR's are not finished on film. They are off whetstones and finished on diamond pasted balsa strops. They have been maintained on a 0.1μm diamond pasted hanging balsa strop after each and every shave for about 20 shaves each.

10-4 sorry about the misunderstanding. With how fine 0.1 micron is I would think the balsa strop (no leather) vs stropping on leather would just be 2 razors having their edge aligned via different stropping methods however 1 has very fine paste that is helping maintain the edge (sort of like the linen for a leather strop). This would show that the balsa could be used as an alternative stropping method. (After re reading the post I guess that was the point)

I would consider using razors that have edges that will not be improved further, then doing the pasted balsa strop vs a paddled leather strop so there are fewer differences between the two. (this could be an interesting secondary test)
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
I would consider using razors that have edges that will not be improved further, then doing the pasted balsa strop vs a paddled leather strop so there are fewer differences between the two. (this could be an interesting secondary test)
There are known differences between using 0.1μm pasted balsa and 0.1μm pasted leather, both on a hard substrate. The pasted leather gives a courser finish than the balsa.

The thinking behind this is that the diamond particles used with the balsa get embedded into the balsa while the same on leather tend to sit more proud on top of the leather. This sounds reasonable to me.

I haven't tried 0.1μm diamond paste on a leather paddle strop but others have. They are the ones who have reported that the edge appears/feels courser off the leather.

You can read all about it in this thread:
 
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rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
BTW @Christian1212, there should be no difference in the finished product between stones and films if the blade's final finishing is on diamond/CBN pasted balsa strops. When honing on stones and/or films, the objective is to remove any trace of the marks from the previous media with the current media. The same holds true when going from stone/film to pasted balsa.

The purpose of the first (0.5μm) in the pasted balsa progression is to remove all traces of the marks left by the last stone/film used. The 0.25μm is used to remove all of the 0.5μm's marks and the 0.1μm to remove the 0.25μm's marks.

Others have tried going to even finer (down to 0.025μm) pastes on basla but find no noticeable improvement. 0.1μm paste seems to be about the limit of noticeable benefit.
 
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I am following. When I commented about using a paddled leather strop I meant that it be used instead of a hanging leather strop for the leather only (so the same pre-shave technique but one is with leather only vs pasted balsa).

When I was talking about the difference of an edge from a stone vs film/pasted methods I was talking about a finished edge from a stone (jnat, ark, coticule, whatever) vs the synthetic/paste edge finished (I know it does not matter how you get there really as long as it was done right which there are a million ways to do). Assuming the paste/balsa gets the edge sharper than the edge finished on stones my thought process was that the edge was thinner thus more fragile/brittle (not saying it will or will not last longer, but that the sharper edge was more prone to damage).
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
I am following. When I commented about using a paddled leather strop I meant that it be used instead of a hanging leather strop for the leather only (so the same pre-shave technique but one is with leather only vs pasted balsa).

When I was talking about the difference of an edge from a stone vs film/pasted methods I was talking about a finished edge from a stone (jnat, ark, coticule, whatever) vs the synthetic/paste edge finished (I know it does not matter how you get there really as long as it was done right which there are a million ways to do). Assuming the paste/balsa gets the edge sharper than the edge finished on stones my thought process was that the edge was thinner thus more fragile/brittle (not saying it will or will not last longer, but that the sharper edge was more prone to damage).
Thank you. I now understand what you were alluding to with the leather paddle strop suggestion. I agree that may be an interesting experiment to try. I will have to leave that up to others. I do not have a leather paddle strop and am not prepared to buy/make one.

As for the keener the edge and its delicacy, I can appreciate your thinking. What also comes into this is the steel alloy, the heat treatment the blade received and the bevel angle. Those and the shaver's technique and whiskers will all affect the edge longevity.

Most SR's are of high carbon steel and have a hardness of around 60 RHC give or take. That could be why pastes finer than 0.1μm provide no noticeable improvement. The edge may be getting just too delicate to not deteriorate during the shave. I guess this could mean that a SR could be too sharp.
 
I am aware of different factors that can go into edge longevity. All of those factors being the same the sharper edge is going to be more brittle/fragile (assuming both razors were finished correctly and groundwork before was done correctly). Not really sure which edge would last longer though.
 
I think balsa is soft enough to introduce a bit of convexity at the apex, maybe not as much as a pasted hanging strop. That would mitigate the fragility of the sharper edge.
 
When stropping on paste, the steel, substrate and technique, (pressures) all make a difference.

Worst case scenario, the edge microchips, joint it and reset, not the end of the world and certainly you do not need to go back to 1k.

Think about this, honing on film with a sheet of wet copy paper will dramatically change an edge by slightly convexing the edge. So if the thickness of a sheet of paper, can change an edge…
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
Clear-tail (stropped) shave this morning.

Looks like the improvements of the black-tail (non-stropped) may have all been in my mind. The clear-tail shave this morning was noticeably keener and more comfortable than what I have recently been getting with the black-tail.

Tomorrow I will have another black-tail shave and the next day a clear-tail shave. That should start to confirm things.
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
I have tried skipping the leather. I found that yeah, you could shave with it straight off the balsa, but it just misses something without the leather. Didn't want to spoil your very good and relevant experiment and you seemed to be having so much fun.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
Shave No. 7 with black-tail (non-stropped)

Surprise, surprise. With the shave this morning, I could notice no difference between yesterday's shave with the stropped clear-tail. The fool's pass with the black-tail this morning was just a little bit off the feel compared to yesterday but that was about the same as experienced at the beginning of this exercise.

Tomorrow, for the final time, I will shave again with clear-tail (stropped) to see if I can confirm. That will then be the end of this exercise and I will summarise my thoughts.

As an aside, when inspecting the black-tail blade this morning after my shave, I noticed two pinhead sized water stains on the face of the blade. I must not have dried the blade thoroughly enough after last Thursday's shave. Fortunately these two water stains were not in way of the face etching. A bit Autosol rubbing removed them. Autosol is black magic.
 
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rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
Final shave in this exercise. I shaved with the clear-tail (stropped) to compare it against the shave yesterday with the black-tail (non-stropped).

Other than being slightly better at the fool's pass with the clear-tail, there was no noticeable difference between the two SR's.

Both of these SR's are effectively identical in every respect. Both are of the same steel (a high carbon steel alloyed with some Cr and Mo) having a hardness of about 60 RHC. Both have been honed identically and have a bevel angle of a little under 18.5°.

After eleven shaves, 3 with the clear-tail and 8 with the black-tail, I have come to the conclusion that there is no noticeable deterioration in the blade's shaving ability if it is maintained on a 0.1μm diamond pasted hanging balsa strop after each shave without stropping on clean leather - clean leather stropping is not needed.

My conclusion may have been different if Ihad extended this exercise into many more shaves. I was just not motivated enough to try. Others can try if they wish.

Will I now stop clean leather stropping? No, I enjoy the ritual. Old habits die hard.
 
Good experiment @rbscebu! An unexpected result but not entirely surprising. If you can strop on leather and newspaper then why not balsa? I may need to try this for myself. It essentially halves the method maintenance regime. It’s certainly compelling for people that are short on time.
 
Jumping into the discussion ..... after a long hiatus from honing on JNATS, I have returned to my SR shaving once again and find some of my edges lacking. Instead of going back to my finishers for touch up, I thought that I would give balsa a try. This is something that I confess to never trying in the past. So, I picked up an aluminum backed balsa strop and 0.1μm diamond paste and should have it by Thursday. Instead of going back to my Tomo Nagura progression, I may do this first and see how it goes.

I had quite an extensive collection of straights and whittled things down to three after years of honing both for myself and pro-bono to learn. For some reason, I fell away and am coming back. Thank you all for the discussion on pasted balsa, I'm curious to see what it will do for me between shaves.
 

rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
Jumping into the discussion ..... after a long hiatus from honing on JNATS, I have returned to my SR shaving once again and find some of my edges lacking. Instead of going back to my finishers for touch up, I thought that I would give balsa a try. This is something that I confess to never trying in the past. So, I picked up an aluminum backed balsa strop and 0.1μm diamond paste and should have it by Thursday. Instead of going back to my Tomo Nagura progression, I may do this first and see how it goes.

I had quite an extensive collection of straights and whittled things down to three after years of honing both for myself and pro-bono to learn. For some reason, I fell away and am coming back. Thank you all for the discussion on pasted balsa, I'm curious to see what it will do for me between shaves.
Just using 0.1μm is not recommended. I strongly recommend that you read all of this thread before you progress any further with pasted balsa:
Take notes as you read. The system changes during the thread as it is developed. Then read it all again, checking and modifying your notes as you go.

There is a lot more to pasted balsa stropping than you may initially think. It is not hard to do but easy to not do properly and fail to get the expected results.
 
Just using 0.1μm is not recommended. I strongly recommend that you read all of this thread before you progress any further with pasted balsa:

My edges from my JNAT progessions are very good right now even after the hiatus. I fail to see how a 0.1μm diamond paste would do much more than what a slurry using my Nakayama Kiita Tomo would do. I don't think I would need to go with anything more course than that on balsa. And what we are talking about is stropping, not honing per se.

That's the beauty of honing/stropping in my opinion, I won't know until I try.

Thanks for the direction.
 
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