What's new

Battle of the Finishers

Just be aware, according to Sakamoto, re Gilmore video, Mejiro can be finer than Koma, again base stone dependent.

I have had better luck finishing on Tomo Nagura than, Mejiro or Koma Mikawa. I have a wide selection of Tomo Nagura and have tested against all my base stones to find which produce the best shaving edge for each stone. I cannot predict which edge will be better by looking at the bevel and edge, only by shaving.

My usual Nagura progression is Tsushima, thick-ish slurry, (it will quickly give you a Kazumi bevel and remove stria) from a near mirror, 8K Fuji bevel, to Tenjyou with thinnish slurry, then a hard Tomo Nagura thin slurry to finish. Some hard stones finish well on a thin 600 diamond slurry.

Once I have a finished edge I like, very lightly joint the edge, strop on firehose and on Chrome Oxide on Polyester canvas,(to remove any burr) about 10 laps and reset the bevel to finish, about 20-30 slow laps, on whatever slurry I finished on. Strop on clean vintage Kanoyama flax linen and Kanoyama leather to finish.

If you do not have an assortment of Tomo to test, but do have other stones, try using the end of your base stones, just ensure that there is no hard Kawa, skin on the edge or file the corner away from the Kawa so that you are making slurry from the stone and not Kawa.

I find if I use the Tsushima to first set the bevel and lay an even Kazumi base, I need less slurry to refine the bevel and edge. Slurry can be added, removed and refreshed or thinned as needed.

I add water to rehydrate slurry, then wipe half the stone with a damp sponge, to thin the slurry by half, and continue removing half to get to finish slurry, usually twice for super thin finish slurry. This slurry will not have a lot of steel in it, if it does, make new slurry.

Another thing to try is a micro bevel on thin finish slurry or the SG20. 3-4 laps on a Kapton taped spine.

Bottom line is you really do need to calibrate your Nagura, Mikawa or Tomo to each of your base stones for best performance.
How do you joint the edge? I have found it to be a delicate thing to master at this level of refinement.
I was not intending on finishing on the koma slurry. I have few options for the final nagura, but i need moore time to experiment. Yellow’ish Nakayama stone on hard Shobu is used usually.
I have a giant Tsushima nagura bench stone which i am trying to find a spot for in my progression. That dry feeling sort of smooth out if i use a nagura on it. Nagura on nagura😀My Shiro Suita is also trying to find it’s place. It turned out to be much finer then i thought. It gives a really nice kasumi finish, but it is hard to say where it fits in.
Really important dilemmas, i know😎
 
J.A. Henckels 17 with translucent Ark finish.

Finally got me a really good Ark finish on Solingen steel. The edge is very smooth looking, very sharp, and shaved like a dream. I also have to say that this exercise of finishing a razor every day is helping my overall honing skills - the act is almost becoming ho-hum :).

1639247113914.png
 
There are different jointing techniques, depending on what you are trying to achieve, the amount of pressure or number of strokes.

For final finish just rest the heel of the edge on a corner of the stone, high on the upper side, (any cut into the stone will not affect honing as the edge will never contact that part of the stone), and lightly drag the razor down to the toe, with just the weight of the blade on the edge. This will cut off most or all of any flashing and get to solid steel.

Because the bevels are already flat, in the correct angle orientation and polished you get a smooth corner and straight edge, stropping on linen will break off any remaining burrs, stropping on paste will polish off any asperity, (rough area). Then it is a simple matter of removing microns of steel to bring the bevels meeting again to an edge that is already straight, hopefully at a smooth edge, (10-20 laps).

Now post 1k, when the bevels are meeting fully the edge is very rough with broken burrs from the larger grit stria. Here you may want to joint multiple times with a bit of pressure to cut off all the rough edge and get a smooth blunt edge.

If you look down on the edge here, most of the edge is shiny and the black spots are where the micro-chips are deeper than the new cut edge. It does not matter unless you have a large dark spot, (deep chip) because you re-hone the edge on a clean 1k and can get the edges to meet again with lite pressure in about 10 or so laps.

You do not need to remove a lot of steel to get the bevels to meet. Your 1k edge will be a lot stronger and straighter. Subsequent stone progression will refine the edge further.

Worst case in either situation is you have flattened the edge too much, just do more laps to get the bevels to meet. The bulk of the work in honing is grinding the bevels flat and in the correct angle. Once that is done it takes very little to get them meeting.

Stropping between stones also help, here I use both linen, flax firehose and leather. It makes a cleaner edge for the next stone in the progression. The goal is as straight an edge as possible.

Try the Tsushima as your first nagura slurry, if you like it, cut off an inch with a hacksaw and use as nagura. I have a large black Tsushima stone that I have honed on with good results, but like a smaller nagura stone better, now you are using both grits.
 
What stone are you coming off of, going to the SG20? The edge looks good but lots of stria on the bevel. The more you refine you bevels the better the edge.

SG20 works best as a finisher, 2-4 laps for me. Works very well with a micro bevel.

All of the scratches you see were made by the SG20. The history of this razor is that it since it was a full-mirror, Method edge, as confirmed by the microscope, it has seen only different finishers, as I experiment. I spent about 5 minutes on the SG20. My general practice is to spend time on the finisher until I am happy with the feel on the stone, and the microscope picture, all the way along.

I may try it your way someday, but it will probably be a while, because I am extremely happy with the results I'm getting.
 
I agree with these comments - in particular:
1) If I do any lapping or dressing, I make sure to wash the surface thoroughly with soapy water or oil applied with my hand to remove contaminants afterwards.
2) I have seen limited value to burnishing or lapping a black Ark to a very high grit level - it just slows the stone down.
Agreed on the super high grit lapping/ burnishing. 220 is a perfect spot for them imo. Yes they'll get a little finer with use on razors, if you use knives on them you might have to refresh them from time to time to get them cutting again. That high grit finish and clogging are the 2 main reasons people complain about arks being slow.
 
Have you tried using shaving soap on the Ark? The last times i used my Ark i used an LEA shaving stick. I just rubbed it on an wet stone and spread it with my fingers. I have tried Ballistol (diluted), baby oil etc, but so far i like a little shaving soap the best. I am new to honing on Arks, but so far they seem to give a nice edge.
It has been a long time since i have inspected edges under magnification, but i got curios after using my Blue Black Ark.
This is a concave bevel were the Ark only have affected 2/3 of the bevel. The bevel is shaped using coticules and finished on an blue black. These stones are really grate for thinning the bevel if you convex one side. The edge is finished on the flat side. You have two transition lines, which is not easy to capture here. You basically end up with three bevels that are blended to one. The affect is actually easier to see with an loupe. No tape was used here, just stones with different radiuses.
I ended up with a nice comfortable edge. The photo was taken after one shave, post stropping.

View attachment 1373717
I like oil for finishing but I've been using lather on everything for touch ups and I really, really like it.
 
Final episode of Season 5. J.A. Henckels 17 with Ozuku finish.

Another great edge - sharp and smooth. A good JNAT finish is really smooth and hard to beat. There seems to be a pattern. All of these finishers are capable of producing excellent edges. For this round, I had a slight preference for the Ozuku and (hard) translucent Ark. Again, we are splitting hairs.

1639399993489.png
 
Final episode of Season 5. J.A. Henckels 17 with Ozuku finish.

Another great edge - sharp and smooth. A good JNAT finish is really smooth and hard to beat. There seems to be a pattern. All of these finishers are capable of producing excellent edges. For this round, I had a slight preference for the Ozuku and (hard) translucent Ark. Again, we are splitting hairs.

Splitting hairs is HHT 2 ;)
 
2.) A very beautiful green stone from the UK. Maybe a Glanrafon.

View attachment 1374395

3.) I think this is probably a Tam or WoA, though it may be a Thuri.

View attachment 1374393

4.) llyn Idwal

View attachment 1374394

5.) Goldfisch Wetzstein (likely a kind of Lorraine / Rouge du Salm layer).

View attachment 1374405

6.) Translucent Ark

View attachment 1374398

7.) Escher

View attachment 1374399

8a.) Coti

8b.) BBW side of same

View attachment 1374407


9.) Turkish

View attachment 1374406

10.) Charnley Forest

View attachment 1374402

11.) Not entirely sure of this. Might be a La Lune, or Melynllyn, or maybe some kind of Devonion slate.

View attachment 1374404


Some more stones to add to this. Will be giving a couple of things a spin this evening.

12.) Moughton Whetstone

IMG-3841.jpg

13.) Llyn Idwal, I believe.

IMG-3893.jpg

14.) Green Thuringian

IMG-3889.jpg

15.) Grecian / Llyn Idwal

IMG-3892.jpg

16.) I *think* this is another Idwal, could be a Charnley, or something else entirely!

IMG-3891.jpg

17.) Tam O'Shanter

IMG-3890.jpg
 
Some more stones to add to this. Will be giving a couple of things a spin this evening.

12.) Moughton Whetstone

View attachment 1377661

13.) Llyn Idwal, I believe.

View attachment 1377659

14.) Green Thuringian

View attachment 1377658

15.) Grecian / Llyn Idwal

View attachment 1377660

16.) I *think* this is another Idwal, could be a Charnley, or something else entirely!

View attachment 1377656

17.) Tam O'Shanter

View attachment 1377657
16) looks like my very hard, fine LI. It has that same flowing pattern that almost looks like river water.
 
Some more stones to add to this. Will be giving a couple of things a spin this evening.

12.) Moughton Whetstone

View attachment 1377661

13.) Llyn Idwal, I believe.

View attachment 1377659

14.) Green Thuringian

View attachment 1377658

15.) Grecian / Llyn Idwal

View attachment 1377660

16.) I *think* this is another Idwal, could be a Charnley, or something else entirely!

View attachment 1377656

17.) Tam O'Shanter

View attachment 1377657

Yesterday I tried the Idwals here, some thoughts...

Although you can certainly use an Idwal to finish a razor, they have a slight problem imo in that they're probably actually a bit too good as whetstones to be world-class razor finishers. I'll explain that with the inevitable comparison to Charnley Forest stones. (Based on a handful of examples I have of each, so I'm not as expert a number of people here).

Idwals and Charnleys are basically the same kind of 'grit' level, there will be coarser and finer examples of each. But you can consider them largely comparable. But Idwals cut quicker, quite a lot quicker actually for something this fine, and it makes them feel coarser. To get a good razor finish I had to burnish the stones quite a lot as you might a hard ark - another stone that cuts very quickly with a fresh surface. The slowness of Charnleys means they lean more toward edge refinement rather than actually cutting, and it makes them feel harder too. But in fact, of the ones I have, Idwals are noticeably harder than CFs. Though they're both hard stones, you only really notice it when lapping.

Stones that cut like Idwals do, at the level they work at, are quite uncommon - far less common than stones that will finish a razor well. You'd be looking at certain Japanese stones - some Nakayama, Shoubudani, coticules in particular, and perhaps the very finest Turkish, along with some synths. So excessively burnishing an Idwal to try to force it into becoming a razor finisher seems a little regressive to me to be honest.

Stone 13 is my favourite of these stones; it's truly excellent. It's also the coarsest and the one I don't think you ever be a particularly good razor finisher. Stone 15 can work for razors, it needed heavy burnishing though to get it there. Stone 16 is the hardest and finest, and conveniently is shaped for razor honing, rather than knives. It still needed burnishing, though once bedded in properly I think this would make for a nice razor stone.

Interestingly it was stone 16 that @Empire straights said above reminded him of his. So yes, in my limited experience, I'd say you're right ES - your stone is probably toward the hard and fine end of the Idwal spectrum.
 
Last edited:
Yesterday I tried the Idwals here, some thoughts...

Although you can certainly use an Idwal to finish a razor, they have a slight problem imo in that they're probably actually a bit too good as whetstones to be world-class razor finishers. I'll explain that with the inevitable comparison to Charnley Forest stones. (Based on a handful of examples I have of each, so I'm not as expert a number of people here).

Idwals and Charnleys are basically the same kind of 'grit' level, there will be coarser and finer examples of each. But you can consider them largely comparable. But Idwals cut quicker, quite a lot quicker actually for something this fine, and it makes them feel coarser. To get a good razor finish I had to burnish the stones quite a lot as you might a hard ark - another stone that cuts very quickly with a fresh surface. The slowness of Charnleys means they lean more toward edge refinement rather than actually cutting, and it makes them feel harder too. But in fact, of the ones I have, Idwals are noticeably harder than CFs. Though they're both hard stones, you only really notice it when lapping.

Stones that cut like Idwals do, at the level they work at, are quite uncommon - far less common than stones that will finish a razor well. You'd be looking at certain Japanese stones - some Nakayama, Shoubudani, coticules in particular, and perhaps the very finest Turkish, along with some synths. So excessively burnishing an Idwal to try to force it into becoming a razor finisher seems a little regressive to me to be honest.

Stone 13 is my favourite of these stones; it's truly excellent. It's also the coarsest and the one I don't think you ever be a particularly good razor finisher. Stone 15 can work for razors, it needed heavy burnishing though to get it there. Stone 16 is the hardest and finest, and conveniently is shaped for razor honing, rather than knives. It still needed burnishing, though once bedded in properly I think this would make for a nice razor stone.

Interestingly it was stone 16 that @Empire straights said above reminded him of his. So yes, in my limited experience, I'd say you're right ES - your stone is probably toward the hard and fine end of the Idwal spectrum.
Yeah my LI is easily hard as a hard ark+ and fine/ glassy as a trans ark, but mine is not fast at all, not without tons of pressure so that's out for razors.
 
A couple of Charnleys today to compare to the Idwals, the top is No.10 from my original post, and the other I'll call No.18. Both used with TO'S slurry stone.

IMG-3897.jpg



18 is the softer of the two, and less uniform. This stone needs more proper lapping and surface conditioning to get it ready for razors. Was ok, but I clearly have more to do, and I'm not sure it'll ever be quite as good as 10. Which is a really nice stone, and gives an edge both very fine, and buttery smooth on the skin. (I think this is what people call a 'mild' edge, or is it 'mellow'?). This is one of my best razor finishers I think.

Because Charnleys are quite slow you want to take quite a good edge to them already, ime. I've used 10 before without doing that, and didn't really get anywhere.
 
S3 E2. TI Special Coiffeur 6/8 half hollow with Nakayama Asagi finish.

Just as things were getting boring, finally a surprise. HHT was effortless, but the edge lacked the cutting power of the last 11 shaves. Yesterday's Naniwa 12k finish on the same razor was like cutting through butter on a warm summer day whereas today's shave felt like the butter had only been sitting on the counter for an hour. Perfectly acceptable shave, but I would be lying if I described it "like butta".

Yeah, I could go back and re-hone the razor on the Nakayama Asagi, but I am going to chalk this up to the hardness (4.5 / 5.0) of the Nakayama. For tomorrow, let's see how the C135 does with my harder (5.0 / 5.0) Ozuku.

1639572340075.png
 
S3 E3. TI Special Coiffeur 6/8 with Ozuku finish.

Good, not great finish. Better than yesterday's Nakayama Asagi finish but lacked the cutting power of the Naniwa 12k finish from two days ago. What's puzzling is how effortless the HHT was (with the Ozuku finish).

I reviewed my honing log, and I have more experience finishing C135 on the Naniwa than any other stone, so this could be as simple as me having more experience with C135 on the Naniwa, and I remember it taking me a while to get dialed in with the C135 on the Naniwa.

1639659233344.png
 
Some more stones to add to this. Will be giving a couple of things a spin this evening.

12.) Moughton Whetstone

View attachment 1377661

13.) Llyn Idwal, I believe.

View attachment 1377659

14.) Green Thuringian

View attachment 1377658

15.) Grecian / Llyn Idwal

View attachment 1377660

16.) I *think* this is another Idwal, could be a Charnley, or something else entirely!

View attachment 1377656

17.) Tam O'Shanter

View attachment 1377657

I gave stone 14, the little green Thuri, a run last night.

I'm no expert at honing with very small 5x1 stones, so this required maximum concentration, but such a lovely stone to use. Much softer than any Thuri I've used before, which admittedly isn't many. A gorgeous edge, lovely shave, and just seems an incredibly easy stone to get great results on quickly (apart from the size obviously!). Other finishers I have require a bit of learning and understanding how they work and how to use them... this just works.

Are there any other stones in the world that are this soft and this fine? I don't know any.
 
A couple of Charnleys today to compare to the Idwals, the top is No.10 from my original post, and the other I'll call No.18. Both used with TO'S slurry stone.

View attachment 1378101


18 is the softer of the two, and less uniform. This stone needs more proper lapping and surface conditioning to get it ready for razors. Was ok, but I clearly have more to do, and I'm not sure it'll ever be quite as good as 10. Which is a really nice stone, and gives an edge both very fine, and buttery smooth on the skin. (I think this is what people call a 'mild' edge, or is it 'mellow'?). This is one of my best razor finishers I think.

Because Charnleys are quite slow you want to take quite a good edge to them already, ime. I've used 10 before without doing that, and didn't really get anywhere.
How soft are Tam O's? Are they a novaculite? The more I've played with slates the more I've used slurry than ever before. I've had an interest in Tam O's for a long time because anything surgeons and watchmakers like, as far as stones go, I like too.
 
S3 E4. Back in the saddle. TI Special Coiffeur 6/8 with Vermont green slate finish using mineral oil. After two less than stellar episodes, the green slate delivered. Sharp and smooth with ample cutting power.

My explanation for the Nakayama Asagi and Ozuku not delivering is that I simply did not apply enough pressure. For today's finish, I simply applied more pressure. You need to be firm with C135.

1639745811094.png
 
Top Bottom