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Is it me or the razor…….probably me…..

Greetings Gentlemen! I’m a long time B&B member and have always been a DE user. A month or so ago, I decided I would try my hand at straight razors. Having been a knife sharpener for years, my honing skills are not non-existent but we all know it’s apples and kumquats when it applies to razors. Watched tons of videos, read lots of threads, and bought a couple of new stones. I have a Naniwa Pro 400, 800, Naniwa Super 3000, 5000, 8000, and 12000. Bought a few razors off the Bay and in local antique stores and started honing. First 3 were pretty good being able to tree-top some hair and pass the HHT.

Then I found an old W&B that I could not get sharp. The bevel was so wonky, the bevel would be heavy at the heel and become almost non-existent by time I got to the tip. On the other side, I’d have a strong bevel at the tip, and would be almost gone at the heel! DOH! Tried to apply even pressure but couldn’t fix it. Then taped the edge and took the spine to my diamond stones to see if I could even out the spine. Finally just gave up.

So, I ended up buying a new “Shave Ready” razor from an online razor store, a Dovo Special I believe it was called and honed by their honemeister to 20k. Dinged the edge first rattle out of the box so decided to just put my own edge on it. Similar problem, but this time, the bevel was normal at the heel (except when I went up on the shoulder), almost non-existent in the middle of the blade, and almost normal at the tip. The other side was almost non-existent at the tip, and tapering down to around normal at the heel. So, I started over and put extra pressure on the tip on one side, and extra pressure in the middle on the other side. It helped, but still not a consistent bevel. I’m getting to where I hate shoulders on razors! But I don’t think that was the entire issue. How likely is it that I’be been working on two blades that have a warp to them? Of course the old W&B could have been abused for decades but the new Dovo has me a bit confused.

Thanks for any thoughts…..

Jerry
 
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Dovos are pretty well known for having uneven grinds. The 'bevel' has two main properties, the apex, and the reveal. Assuming a good apex, the reveal is not so important except for aesthetics. If the grind is uneven enough it can interfere with achieving a good apex.
 
“I have a Naniwa Pro 400, 800, Naniwa Super 3000, 5000, 8000, and 12000.”

Did you put the razors on the 400 and 800?

Post some photos of the razors in question.
 
Dovos are pretty well known for having uneven grinds. The 'bevel' has two main properties, the apex, and the reveal. Assuming a good apex, the reveal is not so important except for aesthetics. If the grind is uneven enough it can interfere with achieving a good apex.
That’s a great point. I definitely apexed it as I could easily shave arm hair with it as well as slice tomatoes. It was the reveal that was driving me nuts and was way off. What would cause the reveal to be that far off though?
 
“I have a Naniwa Pro 400, 800, Naniwa Super 3000, 5000, 8000, and 12000.”

Did you put the razors on the 400 and 800?

Post some photos of the razors in question.
I did put the razors on the 400 as well as the 800. The W&B already had so much spine wear and was still so far off, I took the scales off and threw the blade in the trash. I truly think that old blade was just past its usefulness. I may try to take some pix of the Dovo later.
 
What would cause the reveal to be that far off though?
Hollows that don't follow the geometry set up by the spine and edge. Can you envision how the bevel reveals on your razor could be evened out with some selective grinding on the hollows? Some makers actually set the bevel before finish grinding the hollows. This works well, but would never be done in a production environment, and is not needed as ones grinding skill improves. Of course all this is assuming good geometry between the edge and spine which is not always the case.

Some razors have poor grinds and have been honed on convex hones to make the edge follow the grind rather than the spine. This gets them out the door but leaves the problem for the next person honing to deal with.
 
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Anytime you run into blades that give you major trouble, put them aside and revisit at a later time. Straight razors arent dead flat. Soon you will be able to handle all kinds of razors. Keep it simple at first.
Yeah, that’s great advice. Once I went down the rabbit hole on this one, I just couldn’t stop till I got it fixed. I should have set it aside for another day. But, I think I got it much better and I’ll shave with it tonight or tomorrow morning. I’ll know more then.
 
You know about rolling X-strokes, right? It's not going to mitigate a serious warp, but since you don't mention them, I thought I should.
I do know about rolling x-strokes but didn’t use them on this razor. Hence, I missed the curve of the toe. Next time I’ll add in some roll x-strokes. I’m just not really confident in them yet, but will certainly revisit some videos on them. Thanks for the suggestion.
 
Hollows that don't follow the geometry set up by the spine and edge. Can you envision how the bevel reveals on your razor could be evened out with some selective grinding on the hollows? Some makers actually set the bevel before finish grinding the hollows. This works well, but would never be done in a production environment, and is not needed as ones grinding skill improves. Of course all this is assuming good geometry between the edge and spine which is not always the case.

Some razors have poor grinds and have been honed on convex hones to make the edge follow the grind rather than the spine. This gets them out the door but leaves the problem for the next person honing to deal with.
Yeah, I tried to visualize where to add pressure to even out the reveal. It certainly helped. I probably could have kept working on it, but since it seemed to be sharp, I stopped. The lack of even reveal bugged me, but in the grand scheme of things, may not be all that important. As long as it shaves well, I won’t worry so much about it going forward.
 
Yeah, I tried to visualize where to add pressure to even out the reveal.
When I asked you about visualizing where the hollows could be ground to even out the bevel, I wasn't suggesting that you would do anything about it. I was only pointing it out to show how poorly ground hollows would create an uneven bevel reveal.
 
When I asked you about visualizing where the hollows could be ground to even out the bevel, I wasn't suggesting that you would do anything about it. I was only pointing it out to show how poorly ground hollows would create an uneven bevel reveal.
Ahhh. Well, my OCD wouldn’t let me leave it along! But I see your point.
Thanks
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
That’s a great point. I definitely apexed it as I could easily shave arm hair with it as well as slice tomatoes. It was the reveal that was driving me nuts and was way off. What would cause the reveal to be that far off though?

This is not unusual, and in fact, with entry level Dovo razors, it is very usual and very normal and to be expected. It is simply because the edge and spine are not true and parallel to one another in the lateral dimension. Warp from the quench can do this but mostly it is poor grinding, I think.

The good news is if you really want to shave with the razor, unless it is REALLY REALLY bad, you can brute force it into having a usable bevel, honing on ordinary flat stones. The width of the bevel face absolutely does not have to be of consistent width, but some face must be there. Two bevel faces must intersect for there to be a true bevel. You could have at any one spot a developed bevel facet on one side, and just raw steel on the other, and you will have nothing but a big ol burr right there. As you hone the weak side and remove steel and get the bevel face down lower and it extends into the dead space, eventually you get a skinny little bevel face where before there was none, but of course you have also widened the bevel face where you already had a bevel, and you have moved the edge more toward the other side, and reduced the bevel face width on the other side, too. If you reduce it to the point where there are spots with no improved bevel face left at all, you are right back where you started.

So, you can see that there are limits to how badly warped and twisted a blade can be, and still be hone-able on a normal hone with normal methods. And frankly if I can't hone a razor on a normal size flat hone, I toss it, plain and simple. And a very narrow bevel face or one that is not of consistent width along its length, or not the same as the other side, is no biggie. If you look at the bevel under bright light and some magnification, you can see if there are any spots not getting the love. and try to address them first by simply honing the entire razor normally, maybe adding a little more effort to the side that needs it the most, and often adding a slight roll to the stroke. I always hone in hand except when I happen to be using my granite surface plate which is of course too heavy, and one reason for this is that when honing in hand and using an x stroke, a rolling x happens quite naturally as the hone rather than the razor does the rolling, under the pressure of the razor.

I recommend the Belomo Triplet 10x loupe for most honing needs. That, and a very bright work light, usually tell you all you need to know about an edge you are honing. Don't get the 20x, the field of view and focal distance are more suited to examining gemstones and such. The 10x is just right, very usable.

A smiling razor is, in this situation, easier to hone than a straight one. I love a straight edge, but with a smiling edge you can prioritize the middle or one end or both ends, independently of the other side. Once the bevel is set, if you are honing in hand, the intermediate and finish stages will simply follow what you created in the bevel setting stage.Typically a new but warped razor will display on one side a wide bevel in the middle and a narrow one at heel and toe, and on the other side, the opposite, a wide bevel at heel and toe, and a narrow one in the middle. If there is significant smile, it is simple enough to prioritize the middle on the side with the very narrow or nonexistent bevel in the middle part, and vice versa on the other, all on a normal flat and wide honing surface. I would caution against carrying this to extremes, though. The goal should be for a razor that requires no special directed effort in subsequent honing. Fix the disease, instead of fixing the symptoms so badly that you cause more damage.
 
This is not unusual, and in fact, with entry level Dovo razors, it is very usual and very normal and to be expected. It is simply because the edge and spine are not true and parallel to one another in the lateral dimension. Warp from the quench can do this but mostly it is poor grinding, I think.

The good news is if you really want to shave with the razor, unless it is REALLY REALLY bad, you can brute force it into having a usable bevel, honing on ordinary flat stones. The width of the bevel face absolutely does not have to be of consistent width, but some face must be there. Two bevel faces must intersect for there to be a true bevel. You could have at any one spot a developed bevel facet on one side, and just raw steel on the other, and you will have nothing but a big ol burr right there. As you hone the weak side and remove steel and get the bevel face down lower and it extends into the dead space, eventually you get a skinny little bevel face where before there was none, but of course you have also widened the bevel face where you already had a bevel, and you have moved the edge more toward the other side, and reduced the bevel face width on the other side, too. If you reduce it to the point where there are spots with no improved bevel face left at all, you are right back where you started.

So, you can see that there are limits to how badly warped and twisted a blade can be, and still be hone-able on a normal hone with normal methods. And frankly if I can't hone a razor on a normal size flat hone, I toss it, plain and simple. And a very narrow bevel face or one that is not of consistent width along its length, or not the same as the other side, is no biggie. If you look at the bevel under bright light and some magnification, you can see if there are any spots not getting the love. and try to address them first by simply honing the entire razor normally, maybe adding a little more effort to the side that needs it the most, and often adding a slight roll to the stroke. I always hone in hand except when I happen to be using my granite surface plate which is of course too heavy, and one reason for this is that when honing in hand and using an x stroke, a rolling x happens quite naturally as the hone rather than the razor does the rolling, under the pressure of the razor.

I recommend the Belomo Triplet 10x loupe for most honing needs. That, and a very bright work light, usually tell you all you need to know about an edge you are honing. Don't get the 20x, the field of view and focal distance are more suited to examining gemstones and such. The 10x is just right, very usable.

A smiling razor is, in this situation, easier to hone than a straight one. I love a straight edge, but with a smiling edge you can prioritize the middle or one end or both ends, independently of the other side. Once the bevel is set, if you are honing in hand, the intermediate and finish stages will simply follow what you created in the bevel setting stage.Typically a new but warped razor will display on one side a wide bevel in the middle and a narrow one at heel and toe, and on the other side, the opposite, a wide bevel at heel and toe, and a narrow one in the middle. If there is significant smile, it is simple enough to prioritize the middle on the side with the very narrow or nonexistent bevel in the middle part, and vice versa on the other, all on a normal flat and wide honing surface. I would caution against carrying this to extremes, though. The goal should be for a razor that requires no special directed effort in subsequent honing. Fix the disease, instead of fixing the symptoms so badly that you cause more damage.
Thanks for all your help. I did finally brute force it into having at least a small reveal in the middle on one side and have a decent bevel across the entire razor now. I shaved with it this morning and it was a very close shave with minimal irritation. I need to give hand honing a try and see how I like it. It certainly makes sense. And, I just ordered the 10x loupe you recommended.
 
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Hope you are using tape if you are using pressure, you can not put steel back on. More of the same is never a good solution.

60x magnification will show you a lot more of what is happening at the edge. Once you know how to hone you need to “see” a lot less. Better said, you understand what you are seeing and do not need the detail, but detail is nice sometimes.

New Dovo's are notorious for needing heel reprofiling that will keep the heel half of the razor off the stone, a simple 5 minute fix. Using more pressure will trash the spine and wear the toe.

Post a pic of the razor, it may be a simple fix.
 
Hope you are using tape if you are using pressure, you can not put steel back on. More of the same is never a good solution.

60x magnification will show you a lot more of what is happening at the edge. Once you know how to hone you need to “see” a lot less. Better said, you understand what you are seeing and do not need the detail, but detail is nice sometimes.

New Dovo's are notorious for needing heel reprofiling that will keep the heel half of the razor off the stone, a simple 5 minute fix. Using more pressure will trash the spine and wear the toe.

Post a pic of the razor, it may be a simple fix.
I currently have a 30x and a 60x, and have a 10x on order. My 60x is a little hard to use handheld. I have yet to use tape, as it seems to be about 50-50 as to those who prefer it and those who don’t. I can certainly make the argument either way. I can however, see the spine wear I put on this razor trying to fix the bevel, and will likely use tape next time on a problematic razor. I sharpened a vintage Robeson today that was so much easier with a straight blade, even grind, and I sharpened in a third of the time I spent on the Dovo yesterday. The Robeson had no shoulder and that made it so much easier. I did get up on the shoulder on one side of the Dovo more than I did the other, so I know part of the problem was user error. But even making sure I didn’t get up on it, it was still way off.

So once you use tape to set the bevel, do you remove the tape and reset without tape, or do you leave the tape on through all the stones?

The 10x I have coming said it works well with a cell phone to take images so I’ll give that a try when I get it.
 
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rbscebu

Girls call me Makaluod
I use tape on the spine for heavy-metal removal before getting to the final bevel set. Once almost at bevel set, I remove the tape and finish my bevel set.

If honing a warped blade, you will get to bevel set on parts of the edge and not others before you get a full-length bevel set. If using tape in this situation, you should remove the tape just before the bevel set becomes full-length. Then gently dull the full length of the edge on say the bottom of a glass tumbler and finish setting the bevel full-length without tape.
 
I use tape on the spine for heavy-metal removal before getting to the final bevel set. Once almost at bevel set, I remove the tape and finish my bevel set.

If honing a warped blade, you will get to bevel set on parts of the edge and not others before you get a full-length bevel set. If using tape in this situation, you should remove the tape just before the bevel set becomes full-length. Then gently dull the full length of the edge on say the bottom of a glass tumbler and finish setting the bevel full-length without tape.
Yep, that makes sense. Thanks
 

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets
I currently have a 30x and a 60x, and have a 10x on order. My 60x is a little hard to use handheld. I have yet to use tape, as it seems to be about 50-50 as to those who prefer it and those who don’t. I can certainly make the argument either way. I can however, see the spine wear I put on this razor trying to fix the bevel, and will likely use tape next time on a problematic razor. I sharpened a vintage Robeson today that was so much easier with a straight blade, even grind, and I sharpened in a third of the time I spent on the Dovo yesterday. The Robeson had no shoulder and that made it so much easier. I did get up on the shoulder on one side of the Dovo more than I did the other, so I know part of the problem was user error. But even making sure I didn’t get up on it, it was still way off.

So once you use tape to set the bevel, do you remove the tape and reset without tape, or do you leave the tape on through all the stones?

The 10x I have coming said it works well with a cell phone to take images so I’ll give that a try when I get it.
When the edge and spine are not straight and not parallel, there are two ways of looking at it. The edge is wrong. Or the spine is wrong. Most often it is both. If you want spine and edge to agree, you will WANT to remove some steel from the spine. There is a compulsive obsession going around about "hone wear" on the spine. In excess, it is bad. By "in excess" I mean grinding and grinding away at the spine with no steel removed from the edge. But normally the edge and spine wear together, proportionally, and that's what you want. Read all about it right here on B&B. I am not going to bother with my standard arguments, except that I urge you to REALLY THINK about what happens when you grind away steel from the edge while protecting the spine. Steel DOES get removed from the edge. If this did not happen, your razor could never get sharp. But you don't SEE the edge wear. It just goes away. That steel that is removed leaves no evidence behind. When you remove steel from the spine, you get a flat bevel facet on the spine that can't be ignored and OH NO! SPINE WEAR!!!!! But let me shut up about that. Please, feel free to listen to the howls of outrage saying I am just WRONG. Listen to them. The more you listen to the tape zealots, the more common sense and logic will speak to you.
 
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