How bad are Norton Water Stones really?

[StellaNova]

It's been a very long time since I kept up with developments in the world of synthetic water stones (stones).

During that time the esteemed Norton 4K/8K combination stone has fallen out of favor for reasons I am not aware of.
On top of that, it's actually more of a 3K/5K stone compared to my Naniwa and Shapton stones.

And my Shapton Pro 15K is actually a 12K ?? That is a separate topic altogether though.

In the days when Norton was the thing to get, I bought a 220/1K combo and a 4K/8K combo.

Now I am looking to fill the gap between 5K(Norton 8K?) and 12K, but at the same time I am left wondering if I should replace both of the combo stones with something better.

So my question(s):
Is the 220/1K stone a viable low grit option or am I crazy not relegate it to kitchen knife duty and replace it with a better razor hone ?
And the same goes for the 4K/8K stone I suppose.
Not only that, but what makes them relatively bad and the alternatives better ?

Thanks!

 

[ables]

I have had my norton 4/8k for maybe 8 years? I do not like the 4k side (too muddy for me) but really like the 8K. It can do alot of work if needed and has a great size/ feel. Ive found it responsive to surface prep too, getting somewhat rougher or finer if needed and slurry can be used. I also have a Shapton kuromaku 5k and my norton 8k is finer, making the bevel very near mirror. I often use both of them unless in a hurry. Im not sure if mine is just a good example but I shaved using it plus CrOx balsa for years. I now go from Norton 8k to my Shapton 12k or Naniwa 10k with no problem at all if the edge is set well.

I also have had the norton 220/1K and disliked for being soft/muddy/gritty. A DMT/India/crystolon for rough work and my King1k was better for me.

 

[StellaNova]

I have had my norton 4/8k for maybe 8 years? I do not like the 4k side (too muddy for me) but really like the 8K. It can do alot of work if needed and has a great size/ feel. Ive found it responsive to surface prep too, getting somewhat rougher or finer if needed and slurry can be used. I also have a Shapton kuromaku 5k and my norton 8k is finer, making the bevel very near mirror. I often use both of them unless in a hurry. Im not sure if mine is just a good example but I shaved using it plus CrOx balsa for years. I now go from Norton 8k to my Shapton 12k or Naniwa 10k with no problem at all if the edge is set well.

I also have had the norton 220/1K and disliked for being soft/muddy/gritty. A DMT/India/crystolon for rough work and my King1k was better for me.

Thanks @ables, I have also gotten mirror finishes off the 8K Norton, but I never looked at the edge under high magnification to check scratch patterns - my loupe is not that strong.
So I guess your Shapton kuromaku 5k can fill in for the 4K side of the Norton then ?

And when you say you find the 1K Norton gritty compared to other similar stones, does it mean that the grittiness gouges deeper scratches than the others?
One of my concerns around using a poor low grit stone is that I may be making more work for myself to remove those scratches in the next level, on the equally poor 4K.

 

[ables]

Thanks @ables, I have also gotten mirror finishes off the 8K Norton, but I never looked at the edge under high magnification to check scratch patterns - my loupe is not that strong.
So I guess your Shapton kuromaku 5k can fill in for the 4K side of the Norton then ?

And when you say you find the 1K Norton gritty compared to other similar stones, does it mean that the grittiness gouges deeper scratches than the others?
One of my concerns around using a poor low grit stone is that I may be making more work for myself to remove those scratches in the next level, on the equally poor 4K.

The norton 1k was OK if my memory is correct, just thirsty, you could certainly use it as a starting point. I really didnt care for the 220 part that seemed to melt away, mine might have been defective it was so soft. When i used the norton 200/1K i always made a huge mess of mud everywhere which was unpleasant and 220 grit kept getting on the 1k side.

I use a Shapton 2k as my starting point for most razors in decent condition without chips, I love the stone. If im not getting a good edge Ill drop down to King 1k or Shapton 1k. My normal full synthetic progession is 1k->2k->5k->Norton8K->Naniwa 10k or Shapton 12k. Before then using a natural finisher. I try to half the micron grit size each step. And I dont leave 2k or 5k with out a really sharp razor.

The 2k stone really does all the work of the Norton 4k better for me. I think alot of razor honers around here really like the Shapton 1.5k or the Chosera 1k but ive never got try them out. Have you see this chart? Grit Chart - https://www.gritomatic.com/pages/grit-chart I find it helpful for halving micro sizes as progressing.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

So my question(s):
Is the 220/1K stone a viable low grit option or am I crazy not relegate it to kitchen knife duty and replace it with a better razor hone?
And the same goes for the 4K/8K stone I suppose.
Not only that, but what makes them relatively bad and the alternatives better ?

You are way overthinking the progression. If you are able to fully set a bevel and get a shaving edge, your stones are fine, you will not see any improvement by changing bevel setting or mid grit stones.

There are no, “Better” stones. Norton’s are good stones. There are stones that feel different and may be a few laps quicker or slower.

If I were to hone a razor on your progression and finish on a Jnat, then hone the same razor on any other progression and finish on a Jnat, I defy anyone to shave with both edges and tell one progression, from the other.

You should look to another finishing stone if you are looking for performance. Or change/improve your technique. There are simple things you can do with what you have, paste, micro bevel, jointing, and stropping are a few. A 60-100X loupe is $10-15, you cant improve what you cannot see.

 

[StellaNova]

The norton 1k was OK if my memory is correct, just thirsty, you could certainly use it as a starting point. I really didnt care for the 220 part that seemed to melt away, mine might have been defective it was so soft. When i used the norton 200/1K i always made a huge mess of mud everywhere which was unpleasant and 220 grit kept getting on the 1k side.

I use a Shapton 2k as my starting point for most razors in decent condition without chips, I love the stone. If im not getting a good edge Ill drop down to King 1k or Shapton 1k. My normal full synthetic progession is 1k->2k->5k->Norton8K->Naniwa 10k or Shapton 12k. Before then using a natural finisher. I try to half the micron grit size each step. And I dont leave 2k or 5k with out a really sharp razor.

The 2k stone really does all the work of the Norton 4k better for me. I think alot of razor honers around here really like the Shapton 1.5k or the Chosera 1k but ive never got try them out. Have you see this chart? Grit Chart - https://www.gritomatic.com/pages/grit-chart I find it helpful for halving micro sizes as progressing.

Thanks for that, and that chart is great!

 

[StellaNova]

There are no, “Better” stones. Norton’s are good stones. There are stones that feel different and may be a few laps quicker or slower.

Thanks @H Brad Boonshaft, this answers my question.

 

[buca3152]

I had the same setup at first. Back then it was all the rage. Got talked into choseras after a while. Which are thicker don't need soaking and have less lapping requirements. Since I did hone for hire for a while it was well worth it. Although for.most people it's fine. The 8k is a heck of a polisher even though they say it's only really a 5k.

 

[StellaNova]

I had the same setup at first. Back then it was all the rage. Got talked into choseras after a while. Which are thicker don't need soaking and have less lapping requirements. Since I did hone for hire for a while it was well worth it. Although for.most people it's fine. The 8k is a heck of a polisher even though they say it's only really a 5k.

One thing about "thirsty" stones like the 1K and 4K is that it's difficult to watch how the water interacts with the edge, and I guess slurry would be difficult to work with too.

 

[thp001]

Really cannot stand the 1K, water just seems to fall through it, at least mine does even though the thing lives in a tub of the stuff.

 

[buca3152]

One thing about "thirsty" stones like the 1K and 4K is that it's difficult to watch how the water interacts with the edge, and I guess slurry would be difficult to work with too.

I hear you. As my first stones I didn't know better until I started using spray and go stones. The only stone I really disliked. I mean I hated was the king 1k. I soaked the sob and left it out overnight in freezing weather. Lol. I know it's not rational to get mad at inanimate objects! But bottom line is it worked like anything else. If you got the coin nothing wrong with stepping up. But you don't have to as guys use them all day long.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

If you have a thirsty stone, use a squirt bottle in place of a spray bottle and a plastic serving tray to catch any excess.

I often bevel set on a King, that I give a quick 2-3 minute soak and the squirt bottle handles the rest. It is not an issue.

 

[buca3152]

If you have a thirsty stone, use a squirt bottle in place of a spray bottle and a plastic serving tray to catch any excess.

I often bevel set on a King, that I give a quick 2-3 minute soak and the squirt bottle handles the rest. It is not an issue.

It isn't an issue unless your honing in a non work area. Not everyone has a dedicated work area. I don't even use Waterstones for my knives anymore. I use dmts dry. And oil stones I have never even tried. Sounds too messy.

 

[Jnatcat]

I used them early on and found them to be to soft and muddy along with constantly needing to be flattened and cleaned.

 

[thp001]

It isn't an issue unless your honing in a non work area. Not everyone has a dedicated work area. I don't even use Waterstones for my knives anymore. I use dmts dry. And oil stones I have never even tried. Sounds too messy.

I've never understood this idea of oilstones being messy. If oilstones are messy people are very likely using way too much oil or they just don't like the feeling of oil on their hands and confuse that with mess.

Compared to waterstones, especially with softer stones where one is constantly lapping (some even lap every time they hone regardless), oilstones are about the cleanest option out there besides using a hone dry.

All one needs to do is just moisten the surface of the stone with a thin layer of oil, I spent a half hour setting the bevel on a razor using a Norton Fine Crystolon oilstone yesterday and didn't get a single drop of the stuff on either my hands or on my bench. I used one folded square of tissue to dab the oil from the top of the stone and wipe the blade down.

 

[buca3152]

Oil on your hands is messy to me. I have no problem with oil on my gloved hands if I have to grease something or change oil. But for honing? I don't hone in my driveway or shop. I will pass. Oil stones don't do anything that Waterstones can't do. At least I have never been convinced. And dry honing on dmts is exactly how I sharpen my knives.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Smith’s Honing Solution or Ballistol 3-5 drops on a wet stone is all you need, add a drop or water as needed. Both water soluble, washes right off.

If you have an oil free Ark and you use oil, it will wash off with dish soap.

I like Smith, just put into a bottle that will dispense a single drop, I use a 1ounce plastic bottle, like an eye drop bottle.

 

[StellaNova]

Smith’s Honing Solution or Ballistol 3-5 drops on a wet stone is all you need, add a drop or water as needed. Both water soluble, washes right off.

If you have an oil free Ark and you use oil, it will wash off with dish soap.

I like Smith, just put into a bottle that will dispense a single drop, I use a 1ounce plastic bottle, like an eye drop bottle.

I will try remember this in the event that I get an Arkansas stone.

 

[StellaNova]

Thanks for all of the replies.

It looks like the general consensus is that the Norton water stones get the job done, but can be soft, thirsty and messy.

I was expecting some bigger issues, but I suppose that if you hone a lot of razors/every day then the issues listed can have a big impact on the overall experience.
I think I read a comment somewhere that changing to a Chosera or a Shapton(?) could save about 10min per razor just in terms of efficiency.
That and the added convenience of less lapping and no soaking/thirstiness can tip the scales in favor of change for those who hone a lot.

 

[bluesman 7]

My knowledge and experience with the Norton water stones is extremely limited, but when I hear of people lapping up to 1/8" of the surface away to get to the good part of the stone I give them a pass. I did try a new Norton 4k at a meet once and it had incredibly coarse inclusions/contaminants or what ever on/in the honing surface. It wasn't my stone so I wasn't about to lap away a large amount of material to get to the good stuff.