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I have an Aimpoint Pro cowitnessed to irons and the battery has held up well

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@OkieStubble, you happy with your inforce? I had one years ago and the case cracked out on me from just house and storage movements, and some static range work. there was no stress put on that rifle or light. I washed my hands of them and didn't even bother with a claim.
 

OkieStubble

Dirty Donuts are so Good.
@OkieStubble, you happy with your inforce? I had one years ago and the case cracked out on me from just house and storage movements, and some static range work. there was no stress put on that rifle or light. I washed my hands of them and didn't even bother with a claim.

I am happy with the Inforce I have “now.” Like you, I bought the original Inforce APL years ago after their first release. It was only a 200 lumen light and the thin case Also cracked with very little effort, same as yours.

I then went and bought an Haley Strategic Inforce WML which upgraded with a bit thicker and rugged housing, along with an extra 100 lumens giving me 300.

While it could take a beating externally, the internals up and just quit working for me. Could never figure it out and get it working again.

Now, years later with a lot of lessons learned and technological advances, they make their housings with what they call, a glass reinforced nylon 6.

This allows for a lightweight and durable construction. It is also impervious to dust, sand, mud and dirt and is waterproof, not water resistant, but waterproof, up to 66 feet.

The newer model I have is the WMLX. It comes in a shorter 400 lumen and longer 800 lumen models. I think bright white high lumen high output weapon lights are over kill for inside work, and can possibly help to be a buzz kill during outside work, so I have the smaller 400 lumen model.

While it’s still probably not indestructible, most working things are not that are not named “Glock.” But for what you get? A hot white tactical light that is probably the lightest weight in the business, gives off Surefire brand type light, is probably the most ergonomically and user friendly weapons light made? Easily mounted, put on and taken off with a tightening of a small knob and pinch of the mounting rails?

And at an affordable price compared to a Surefire or Streamlight or type in most other brands here?

What’s not to love? For the money, if it breaks, I’ll just very quickly, slap on the other spare I keep in my backpack. :)
 
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I am happy with the Inforce I have “now.” Like you, I bought the original Inforce APL years ago after their first release. It was only a 200 lumen light and the thin case Also cracked with very little effort, same as yours.

I then went and bought an Haley Strategic Inforce WML which upgraded with a bit thicker and rugged housing, along with an extra 100 lumens giving me 300.

While it could take a beating externally, the internals up and just quit working for me. Could never figure it out and get it working again.

Now, years later with a lot of lessons learned and technological advances, they make their housings with what they call, a glass reinforced nylon 6.

This allows for a lightweight and durable construction. It is also impervious to dust, sand, mud and dirt and is waterproof, not water resistant, but waterproof, up to 66 feet.

The newer model I have is the WMLX. It comes in a shorter 400 lumen and longer 800 lumen models. I think bright white high lumen high output weapon lights are over kill for inside work, and can possibly help to be a buzz kill during outside work, so I have the smaller 400 lumen model.

While it’s still probably not indestructible, most working things are not that are not named “Glock.” But for what you get? A hot white tactical light that is probably the lightest weight in the business, gives off Surefire brand type light, is probably the most ergonomically and user friendly weapons light made? Easily mounted, put on and taken off with a tightening of a small knob and pinch of the mounting rails?

And at an affordable price compared to a Surefire or Streamlight or type in most other brands here?

What’s not to love? For the money, if it breaks, I’ll just very quickly, slap on the other spare I keep in my backpack. :)

ok. that makes more sense. I never got comfortable with the ergos before mine broke. my setup's heavier and brighter, but I'm happy with what I have. I can C clamp and run it steady or vertigo inducing disco light. I'll hang a pic when I get home, whenever that happens to be.

and I absolutely agree on the indoor washout. and bangers are fun too. :)
 

OkieStubble

Dirty Donuts are so Good.
ok. that makes more sense. I never got comfortable with the ergos before mine broke. my setup's heavier and brighter, but I'm happy with what I have. I can C clamp and run it steady or vertigo inducing disco light. I'll hang a pic when I get home, whenever that happens to be.

and I absolutely agree on the indoor washout. and bangers are fun too. :)
+1 on everything you just said. Absolutely concur. And lol’d @ “vertigo inducing.” :)

Would love to see a pic of your set up.
 
+1 on everything you just said. Absolutely concur. And lol’d @ “vertigo inducing.” :)

Would love to see a pic of your set up.

pretty big, pretty bright, some washout indoors, but not God's Q-beam either. I want to say, probably 80m of good PID range outdoors in the dark. and I got the set up for maybe $125 total.

and I'll likely end up with a shorter forearm, and likely go to M-lock when I do. I don't shoot a lot of training rounds with it mounted as it is, because who wants to buy new lenses when you don't have to.

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Lot's of great info here on LPVO, nothing for me to add there. My experience with LPVO's is limited (I do have an AR equiped with one though).

Looking at the OP; "I’m thinking of retiring my Eotech since it is totally battery dependent."
I immediately think of two options; iron sights and an etched reticle prismatic sight. The etched reticle is still usable even if the battery is dead.


I like old-fashioned irons and I really like the military style rear sights that can be adjusted (once zeroed) to reach out to an optimistic 600 meters. The (AFT-registered) rifles pictured below have a Rock River rear sight that are a little nicer than the $40 knock-offs. No batteries to fuss with.
 

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OkieStubble

Dirty Donuts are so Good.
Unicorn Scope has been created!



16.2 ounces... :)
 
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I think sometime people try to make their carbine setups so well-rounded they don't have a point. Jack of all trades is nice, but there are limits on how sensible it is. At some point jack of all trades must be balanced against "he who plans for all plans for none."


The trend now seems IMO to err to far towards "generalist" and forfeits a lot of utility to do so.

What does that mean for optics? It means that a LPVO might actually be a pretty poor choice for some applications. Where does the LPVO shine? Hunting. You'll have a wide FOV, can see movement, and have time to dial up a bit more magnification. The key distinction here is that you are choosing the time and place of engagement.

For a defensive carbine, you have no such choice of time or place. The nature of defense is that you are reacting rather than acting. You won't have time to adjust your LPVO or set the brightness level or any of that. And defense is necessarily close range. At close range you will likely be point shooting or nearly so. You need an aiming system that is as fast as possible to get a sight picture. That means you can't have a reflex site where you can't "find the dot". The fastest sighting system is one in which you have the maximum range of angular error and can still see a sight picture. That's something like a Ghost Ring. Some red dots allow a large range of angle that still make the dot visible and are similarly fast. Others will have you trying to "find the dot" and might be a poor choice.

Finally, a word on lights. A bright and tough tactical light on your defensive rifle is weight and money well spent. Not only can it save someone's life by assisting target ID, but it might keep you from even having to fire your rifle, which is a huge win. If you can freeze someone in place with a blinding light, you've successfully incapacitated them with a nonlethal means. That means no legal liability, no baggage for the rest of your life about having killed someone (regardless how much they deserved it or how justified it was). It means no risk of overpenetration. There are no good shots in your own home, just ones that are less terrible.

The chances of needing your carbine at night vs daytime are not 50/50. It's more like 80/20. Get a light.

So even if you have to get by with MBUS flip up sights for a while to do so, a LIGHT is far more important than any optic. Invest in a quality light with a good interface. (something like the Cloud Defensive setup comes to mind). That light adds FAR more value than any sight upgrade above the MBUS does. A man with a good light and cheap but effective sights is miles ahead of one running a LPVO with no light. Don't balk at $300 for a weapon light when you gladly shelled out $500 for a LPVO that is less important on a defensive carbine. You'd be better off selling the LPVO to fund the light and go with the MBUSs until you can get back to an optic.
 

OkieStubble

Dirty Donuts are so Good.
I think sometime people try to make their carbine setups so well-rounded they don't have a point. Jack of all trades is nice, but there are limits on how sensible it is. At some point jack of all trades must be balanced against "he who plans for all plans for none."


The trend now seems IMO to err to far towards "generalist" and forfeits a lot of utility to do so.

What does that mean for optics? It means that a LPVO might actually be a pretty poor choice for some applications. Where does the LPVO shine? Hunting. You'll have a wide FOV, can see movement, and have time to dial up a bit more magnification. The key distinction here is that you are choosing the time and place of engagement.

For a defensive carbine, you have no such choice of time or place. The nature of defense is that you are reacting rather than acting. You won't have time to adjust your LPVO or set the brightness level or any of that. And defense is necessarily close range. At close range you will likely be point shooting or nearly so. You need an aiming system that is as fast as possible to get a sight picture. That means you can't have a reflex site where you can't "find the dot". The fastest sighting system is one in which you have the maximum range of angular error and can still see a sight picture. That's something like a Ghost Ring. Some red dots allow a large range of angle that still make the dot visible and are similarly fast. Others will have you trying to "find the dot" and might be a poor choice.

Finally, a word on lights. A bright and tough tactical light on your defensive rifle is weight and money well spent. Not only can it save someone's life by assisting target ID, but it might keep you from even having to fire your rifle, which is a huge win. If you can freeze someone in place with a blinding light, you've successfully incapacitated them with a nonlethal means. That means no legal liability, no baggage for the rest of your life about having killed someone (regardless how much they deserved it or how justified it was). It means no risk of overpenetration. There are no good shots in your own home, just ones that are less terrible.

The chances of needing your carbine at night vs daytime are not 50/50. It's more like 80/20. Get a light.

So even if you have to get by with MBUS flip up sights for a while to do so, a LIGHT is far more important than any optic. Invest in a quality light with a good interface. (something like the Cloud Defensive setup comes to mind). That light adds FAR more value than any sight upgrade above the MBUS does. A man with a good light and cheap but effective sights is miles ahead of one running a LPVO with no light. Don't balk at $300 for a weapon light when you gladly shelled out $500 for a LPVO that is less important on a defensive carbine. You'd be better off selling the LPVO to fund the light and go with the MBUSs until you can get back to an optic.

If I may ask, how old are you? Your post is informative and makes very salient points for some.

But there are always two sides to every coin. AR’s are probably the most modular rifle in existence. And while you can transform it, into a long range tack driver, or a short iron sighted affair, with a light and lots of mobility.

But I have to respectfully disagree with the notion, that it cannot be a well rounded, all round Jack of all Trades rifle?

I would suggest, an AR rifle, that has been patiently and painstakingly set up to be very lightweight, with the right modular accessories, is a more and better choice for the average Joe in most or any type of situation they could or would find themselves.

I am not a Navy Seal. Even if I had a long range set up, I don’t have the skill set to punch silhouettes consistently at 800-1000 yards.

Likewise, I also own a short, handy Colt set up with irons and a light, but at my age, do I have the speed, dexterity and skills to rapidly move thru and clear a strange, unknown domicile at CQB speeds?

The answers to both is no.

So, would a very lightweight Jack of all trades AR, with an LPVO and maybe a lightweight off set dot help with both longer range shots and quicker close range engagements?

You bet your buttons it will. Why? Because I do have the skill for consistent, shots all day out to 300 and also the occasional 600. Further then that and I can simply pick up and relocate which is fine by me.

I can also carefully and slowly, methodically clear a domicile if I just absolutely had too, especially in defense of my own homestead.

We talk a lot about gear hear without mentioning the skill or knowledge of tactics to go along with that gear.

There is another good saying,
“know thyself.”

My eyes are aging more everyday and I’m not as flexible and agile as I once was, so I do what I can to stay as operational as I can.

But I do workout and keep in shape. Most young police cadets run their mile and a half qual time in 15.5. I am 61 years old and still run it in 16, so I’m just off young man time by 30 seconds.

I eat right and stay away from sugar, candy and soda. My eyesight is probably my weakest link. Hence the LPVO for longer ranges and an offset dot for closer engagement without having to power down with faster transition times.

Yes sir, a lot more to consider then just gear.

There is another saying. “don’t pick a fight with an old man. Because if he can’t whip ya, he’ll just kill ya.”

:)
 
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Great Post, Okie. I didn’t mean to suggest that an AR can’t be a jack of all trades rifle. Indeed the modular aspect makes possible what previously never really was.

But that’s the source of the temptation to over-accessorize or lose focus.

A super versatile rifle is superbly useful. I have a DDm4 setup for something like that—18” heavy barrel, 3-15x PST2, etc. consistent with the usage, it has no light and no irons. In a pinch I could clear a building with it but like you, I’m no spring chicken anymore and my eyes are fading faster with each day it seems. The huge FOV of this vortex at 3x is actually larger than many prism sights, and the illumination in a small FFP reticle allows me to use it somewhat like a red dot or more like an acog.

But is still heavy and slow for me. I’m an office guy now and since my uniform wearing days ended in my mid 30s, I’m rather stiff and weak (I had to stop running in 2015 due to sciatica, but my app logged a 45 min 10K on my last run— I was in shape). Was. Im navigating medical issues now and hope to get back to working out again soon.

After the events of 2020 in general and Kenosha in particular, I built a lightweight personal defense carbine with only irons. It’s not versatile. But it’s the best short range defensive carbine setup I could dream up. It’s super fast handling, even with a 16” bbl. I could carry it on my body all day for days on end if needed.

My rationale is therefore that while an AR can be a fantastic general purpose rifle, a defensive tool should be specialized to that purpose. Choosing function and capability you only need for offensive use to the detriment of defensive utility is not wise for a defensive rifle.

If you can only have one AR, then make it a jack of all trades and dream up whatever recipe you think best overall— leverage that awesome modularity of the platform.

But if you are building a rifle with defensive use in mind primarily—I’d specialize and skip the lpvo for that reason.

Thanks for your thoughtful and gentle rebuttal. It’s certainly something to consider.
 
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