Thiers Issard in the bin

[Tomo]

Oh dear… I thought I was free of this thing but now you’ve all got me second guessing. Perhaps…. I could try again???
Has anyone had a blade they just can’t hone , even when you’re much more experienced than I am? Are all blades, even wonky TI’s , honable??

I gave up on a poorly ground Ralph Aust. It was the most uneven bevel I’d ever seen. The bevel did a disappearing trick along the length changing from full width in the heel and toe to zero contact in the middle. The other side was the reverse. It was impossible to hone on wide hones.

On narrow hones you can hone pretty much anything. Photos are always helpful.

 

[rbscebu]

There are warped blades, there are unevenly grown blades and there are both together. It sounds like this one is of the second type.

TI blades have a reputation for being good shavers but they have been know to let some bad blades through to market. To me, for the price, they are not worth that risk.

 

[sarimento1]

My TI's have been good shavers.
Granted, I'm not a top-level honer.
But my TI edges will shave just fine.

 

[Apositive]

I gave up on a poorly ground Ralph Aust. It was the most uneven bevel I’d ever seen. The bevel did a disappearing trick along the length changing from full width in the heel and toe to zero contact in the middle. The other side was the reverse. It was impossible to hone on wide hones.

On narrow hones you can hone pretty much anything. Photos are always helpful.

Very grateful to you all! With trepidation here’s some pics- I know it looks awfully worn but in my defence my Aust looks nothing like this and I’ve honed that too. I use Lynn Abrams circle technique and Slash’s pasted balsa. I’ve tried rolling x ‘s and burr method too with the TI. When I use the sharpie, I’m clearing all the ink in a few strokes.

 

[Tomo]

It’s clear that you are cutting the steel quote effectively. The hone wear is only cosmetic. I can’t see any obvious problems with the geometry or grind. It should work. There would be a lot of people happy to give that a try.

 

[Apositive]

It’s clear that you are cutting the steel quote effectively. The hone wear is only cosmetic. I can’t see any obvious problems with the geometry or grind. It should work. There would be a lot of people happy to give that a try.

Thanks for looking Tomo. Ok, I’ll give it another go- I’m in Victoria Australia and we’re COVID locked down so not a lot else to do! Really appreciate all these expert eyes and opinions.
BTW, when I first start honing on a freshly lapped Shapton I can really feel it cutting, but then it seems to become ‘smoother’ and less aggressive during the sharpening session. Is that ok or do I need to re-lap after it ‘smooths off’?

 

[Frank Shaves]

My first TI had an uneven grind. Returned it. Number 2 is super even and shaves like a dream. I had to work just to touch it up, but it is worth it. Number 3 is the same as number 2. With number 1, the uneven grind was visible to the naked eye when light reflected off the bevel.

I would give it another shot. I would put a layer of tape on the spine to eliminate any more wear, and not be afraid to apply some pressure and torque. When I touched up numbers 2 and 3, I failed to make any progress until I generated some swarf on the stone.

And after this doesn't work, sell (or PIF) it so someone else can have a shot.

 

[Tomo]

Thanks for looking Tomo. Ok, I’ll give it another go- I’m in Victoria Australia and we’re COVID locked down so not a lot else to do! Really appreciate all these expert eyes and opinions.
BTW, when I first start honing on a freshly lapped Shapton I can really feel it cutting, but then it seems to become ‘smoother’ and less aggressive during the sharpening session. Is that ok or do I need to re-lap after it ‘smooths off’?

The stones can eventually clog with swarf. Normally rubbing them with wet fingers gets them going again. That or a quick lapping.

 

[Gamma]

Where exactly is that garbage can? :0)
In all seriousness though, the ESE is a singer, very flexy. Plus the steel is hard, this is quite a combo for someone new. Add in a grind issue or two and you have a real nice basket of fun.
At a glance, too much muscle applied. Probably flexing the apex off the stone. Too much downward pressure on the spine. I would not choose a Shap Pro 1000x for this blade's bevel set, nope. Too soft, too grainy, too slow, not enough bite. I would go with a 1.5k Pro instead. Or a 1k Chosera. Been here, done that. Had 2 Evides in the past, both shave well but both need 'touch' in the honing cycle - moreso than stiffer blades.
The Evide needs to be finessed into shaving condition, it's not like a 1/2 hollow Grelot that you can lean on. Even the big 7/8 'Shefflied' TI has more backbone than the Evide. You can hone that shiv, but you need the right gameplan together and you have to troubleshoot your errors thus far and get them out of the picture. You can do it.
BTW - keep the shoulder and tang off the stone. That's part of your problem. Learn heel-leading and rolling strokes. You 'might' need to grind the heel in a bit too.

 

[stone and strop]

I would knock that sharp transition off at the heel so you don't scratch your strop up.
Looks like you have a full bevel along the entire edge both sides now. Lots of wear to get it there but sometimes that's what it takes.
Looks to be a poor grind to me.

 

[cpcohen1945]

I have a TI that won't shave. Problem is the grind. The face side of the blade is perfect and hones to a perfectly even bevel. The backside of the blade is poorly ground. When honing, the heel and toe hone well but the sharpie marks never disappear from the center of the blade - only the backside. I am thinking of sending it out to be reground - or just tossing it, maybe save it for the scales. This razor was a terrible waste.

PMFJI (and forgive me if you've tried this, and it didn't work) --

Isn't that typical behavior for a warped blade? You might try using a narrower hone, or sweeping the backside across the hone, to get the center of the blade in contact with the edge of the stone.

. CHarles

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Easy fix.

You are honing on the tang and stabilizer, (Red Arrow) because the heel corner is too far back, which caused the wonky bevel. The heel half of the edge is not on the stone fully. It is not a warp issue, note the thin bevel in the middle and that the spine wear is the same on both sides. If it was warped the spine and bevel wear would be the opposite on each side.

First correct the heel and move the heel corner ,(Pink Arrow)well forward of the stabilizer, similar to the altered photo with a Blue Circle overlayed on the corner. Note how the heel is now well forward of the stabilizer, (Blue Arrow).

A diamond plate will easily reprofile the heel, use a coin or large washer and a sharpie to mark a new radius so the corner is a ¼ inch forward of the stabilizer, this will keep the whole edge on the stone fully. The steel is thin at the corner and steel will be removed quickly. If you need to remark the radius, WD40 on a paper towel will remove the ink.

Riding on the tang lifts the heel half of the edge off the stone, so you applied more pressure and ground the heel end of the spine excessively, but the heel part of the edge is off the stone. If you do not correct the heel the same thing will happen and the sharp heel will turn in to a heel hook and cut you.

Once the heel is reshaped, put 2 layers of tape on the spine to compensate for the steel that has been ground off, ink and reset the bevel on a 1k. Do not use too much pressure or you will as said flex the blade and lift the edge off the stone. Ink will tell you if you are using too much pressure and lifting the edge off the stone.

Watch your tape and replace if you burn through. Watch your honing stroke to ensure you are not riding on the tang. Your bevel should be ground flat and relatively even, may not be completely even due to uneven grinding of the stone, but the bevels will come together and shave well.

 

[Apositive]

Easy fix.

You are honing on the tang and stabilizer, (Red Arrow) because the heel corner is too far back, which caused the wonky bevel. The heel half of the edge is not on the stone fully. It is not a warp issue, note the thin bevel in the middle and that the spine wear is the same on both sides. If it was warped the spine and bevel wear would be the opposite on each side.

First correct the heel and move the heel corner ,(Pink Arrow)well forward of the stabilizer, similar to the altered photo with a Blue Circle overlayed on the corner. Note how the heel is now well forward of the stabilizer, (Blue Arrow).

A diamond plate will easily reprofile the heel, use a coin or large washer and a sharpie to mark a new radius so the corner is a ¼ inch forward of the stabilizer, this will keep the whole edge on the stone fully. The steel is thin at the corner and steel will be removed quickly. If you need to remark the radius, WD40 on a paper towel will remove the ink.

Riding on the tang lifts the heel half of the edge off the stone, so you applied more pressure and ground the heel end of the spine excessively, but the heel part of the edge is off the stone. If you do not correct the heel the same thing will happen and the sharp heel will turn in to a heel hook and cut you.

Once the heel is reshaped, put 2 layers of tape on the spine to compensate for the steel that has been ground off, ink and reset the bevel on a 1k. Do not use too much pressure or you will as said flex the blade and lift the edge off the stone. Ink will tell you if you are using too much pressure and lifting the edge off the stone.

Watch your tape and replace if you burn through. Watch your honing stroke to ensure you are not riding on the tang. Your bevel should be ground flat and relatively even, may not be completely even due to uneven grinding of the stone, but the bevels will come together and shave well.


View attachment 1322879

Wow! Thank you so much for the time and expertise you have given me! That makes great sense. When you say the heel corner is too far back, did I do that or was that a manufacturing issue?
Also, do I leave the tape on for all the stone progressions or just to set the bevel? And after the stones when using my Aust I use pasted balsa- would I leave the tape on for that as well? It would be a nuisance as I use the finest grade pasted balsa before every shave followed by stropping.

 

[Apositive]

Where exactly is that garbage can? :0)
In all seriousness though, the ESE is a singer, very flexy. Plus the steel is hard, this is quite a combo for someone new. Add in a grind issue or two and you have a real nice basket of fun.
At a glance, too much muscle applied. Probably flexing the apex off the stone. Too much downward pressure on the spine. I would not choose a Shap Pro 1000x for this blade's bevel set, nope. Too soft, too grainy, too slow, not enough bite. I would go with a 1.5k Pro instead. Or a 1k Chosera. Been here, done that. Had 2 Evides in the past, both shave well but both need 'touch' in the honing cycle - moreso than stiffer blades.
The Evide needs to be finessed into shaving condition, it's not like a 1/2 hollow Grelot that you can lean on. Even the big 7/8 'Shefflied' TI has more backbone than the Evide. You can hone that shiv, but you need the right gameplan together and you have to troubleshoot your errors thus far and get them out of the picture. You can do it.
BTW - keep the shoulder and tang off the stone. That's part of your problem. Learn heel-leading and rolling strokes. You 'might' need to grind the heel in a bit too.

Thanks Gamma. I don’t understand your advice re the 1.5k Shap pro being more suitable than the 1k. If I’m having trouble with hard steel why wouldn’t the 1k sharpen more aggressively? I’m still learning all this!

 

[Tomo]

Wow! Thank you so much for the time and expertise you have given me! That makes great sense. When you say the heel corner is too far back, did I do that or was that a manufacturing issue?
Also, do I leave the tape on for all the stone progressions or just to set the bevel? And after the stones when using my Aust I use pasted balsa- would I leave the tape on for that as well? It would be a nuisance as I use the finest grade pasted balsa before every shave followed by stropping.

Do yourself a favour and don’t use tape. If you go down that road you will always need to use tape at ever stage of the honing. It’s a hassle and will not give you a better edge. As the tape wears (and it will wear) your bevel angle is effected and your edge will be less precise. Just don’t go there.

You have a bit of spine wear which is no big deal. I highly doubt that the bevel angle is too acute to hold an edge. You may have decreased the bevel angle slightly and I would consider this an advantage on a stock TI which leads to a keener edge.

Reshaping the heel is rather drastic too. Gamma’s advise of heel leading strokes is solid so that you don’t ride the stabilizer like you have been. The heel really doesn’t need reshaping. That’s where the heel should be and there’s lots of bade left until you get down to the stabilizer. Of course if you really want to butcher the blade go ahead. So far it’s still in pretty good shape.

Here’s a picture of a new(ish) TI. Your heel is ok. You’ve just been riding the stabilizer too much. This blade does not need any drastic intervention.

 

[Tomo]

A warp looks like this. The bevel is uneven and the width changes from wide to thin along the length of the blade. The bevel pattern is the reverse on the other side. Your bevel width looks pretty consistent. I don’t think you’ve got a warp. It’s most likely an issue at the bevel setting stage. Likely too much pressure or stone choice as Gamma suggested. He is extremely knowledgeable. Check how many posts he has.

 

[Apositive]

A warp looks like this. The bevel is uneven and the width changes from wide to thin along the length of the blade. The bevel pattern is the reverse on the other side. Your bevel width looks pretty consistent. I don’t think you’ve got a warp. It’s most likely an issue at the bevel setting stage. Likely too much pressure or stone choice as Gamma suggested. He is extremely knowledgeable. Check how many posts he has.

Much appreciated Tomo. Looking at your beautiful TI I’m realising I should have titled this thread ‘Novice honer in the sin bin’. That’s how mine used to look.
I have form in this area. Got into fountain pens a few years ago and chose a Pelikan M1000 to learn nib tuning on. It did not go well.
My problem is, when Lynn Abrams says ‘with pressure’, learning what pressure means etc. My assumption was C135 steel = hard= lots of pressure. But then my pressure didn’t need to extend to the tang!
I appreciate everyone’s non- judgemental feedback.
Tomorrow I shall caress, not go full MMA, on the TI. I’ll let you know and thanks again.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Tape will not ruin your razor, yes, tape will wear on aggressive 1k stones, just replace the top lay if it does, no drama.

Worst case you just rehone without tape and the taped bevel will be completely removed in 20 laps. But tape will easily fully set the bevel and remove all the bevel damage once the heel is corrected.

The bevel damage can easily be corrected, the heel reshaped and made to shave well with a simple, heel correction reshaping. Once you set the bevel with tape just hone the razor with 2 pieces of tape. A strop is forgiving enough to flex and reach the edge without tape.

To test this hone the razor with tape, then ink the bevel and strop on balsa and see if the ink is removed.

Here is a link on how to reshape a bevel, it is a 5 -minute job and you will NOT ruin your razor. Tape is just another tool, you use it when you need it.

Doing the same thing and expecting a different result, is …

How to correct/re-profile a heel

 

[global_dev]

definitely not a razor for the garbage bin! Glad you are getting good advice!

just a thought about some comments made in the post that most of know but often forget.

Gamma suggested. He is extremely knowledgeable. Check how many posts he has.

tomo’s advice (and other poster’s advice) is really good; however I’d rephrase this last sentence as not “how many posts gamma has”, but at the quality and content gamma puts out. Many posters have tons of posts, but (and i dont mean this about any specific poster, many do great stuff) the best advice doesnt always come from the loudest or high count poster. Otherwise we’d all be doing the same thing without any experimenting for ourselves. Good guidance is helpful but sometimes its bice to make a mistake to learn. I wouldnt do that on a nice razor though, maybe a gold dollar 66 or ebay beater would be that razor.

My problem is, when Lynn Abrams says ‘with pressure’, learning what pressure means etc.

Thats a great question and pressure can be different depending on the task. What you can use on a near wedge vs a extra hollow varies dramatically, bevel set vs finishing, etc. just takes practice to get the experience. Normally people refer to the genera pressure you might use in erasing a pencil mark on paper with the eraser tip. You dont want to rip the paper but you also want to erase more quickly and as you get closer to the goal you may want to ease up.

 

[Kyle89]

My T.I. took some work to get right, and ultimately chose (after trying to avoid it) to do some unspeakable things to the spine with a diamond plate.

My Gold Dollar looked pretty similar to the way your blade looks after trying the burr method for the first time and would not advocate that method personally, but I know others have had success with it. For me it was not very newbie friendly and took quite a while to fix my mistakes (of which were MY mistakes, and not the method itself).

Your T.I., although frustrating, has resulted in a fantastic test bed to test and hone in your skills on the stones. Once you have it all sorted you'll be that much better at sharpening a blade. You'll get there.