Thoughts on an Edge From a 30K Shapton Glass Stone

[Steve56]

Ok. All this talk and I have one incoming. I got.the little one for 109 bucks or so. From sharpening supplies. I got it more to play with some pocket knives but will have to try a razor or two to see. You guys are costing me money! Lol.

Beat ya to it Bill - just kidding, I bought one of these months ago when CKTG had the G7 mis-priced, but as it turns out my 0.44 was defective and confirmed by Shapton in Japan. The G7 seem a little hard to find other than Sharpening Supplies, and they were OOS for some time. This one arrived today and I put 20 strokes on an already shave ready F14 test razor, and had enough swarf to convince me that I have a 0.44u 4dge. The edge had no trouble with HHT lol. Shave tomorrow.

 

[dabrock]

Beat ya to it Bill - just kidding, I bought one of these months ago when CKTG had the G7 mis-priced, but as it turns out my 0.44 was defective and confirmed by Shapton in Japan. The G7 seem a little hard to find other than Sharpening Supplies, and they were OOS for some time. This one arrived today and I put 20 strokes on an already shave ready F14 test razor, and had enough swarf to convince me that I have a 0.44u 4dge. The edge had no trouble with HHT lol. Shave tomorrow.

View attachment 1295717

Let me know what you think of that edge. What's the grit approximation of a .44 micron? 50k?

 

[buca3152]

I think that as time goes in we will see much more. There are already lapping films that are 1/10 of a micron. And they've been around a long while. But we are pushing the envelope. And it's an endless quest to try something else. And I'm sure the cbn and diamond bonded stones will make their way into mainstream honing. I have the venev diamond bonded for knives. They work great. Dmts do also. But the dmts wear while the bonded stones can be refreshed for that new stone feel. New stones coming your way soon. I have no idea what but you can be sure of it.

 

[Steve56]

Let me know what you think of that edge. What's the grit approximation of a .44 micron? 50k?

Oh no, something like 32k by the numbers, but Sharpening Supplies just lists it as 30k like the 0.49u full size HR.

Notably, they list the 0.85u as 17k, not 16k.

Shapton has always been difficult to ‘parse’.

And a little tidbit here, per the table from Jende, Shapton do not recommend the 16k for razors. When Mark forwarded to me the reply from Shapton Japan about my defective 0.44u, they said that I didn’t really need it since I had the 0.85u, implying that the ‘17k’ G7, unlike the 16k HR, was razor grade.

Go figure. Two steps forward, one step back. @David has had a 0.44u longer than me, maybe he can add some wisdom here.

 

[dabrock]

I think that as time goes in we will see much more. There are already lapping films that are 1/10 of a micron. And they've been around a long while. But we are pushing the envelope. And it's an endless quest to try something else. And I'm sure the cbn and diamond bonded stones will make their way into mainstream honing. I have the venev diamond bonded for knives. They work great. Dmts do also. But the dmts wear while the bonded stones can be refreshed for that new stone feel. New stones coming your way soon. I have no idea what but you can be sure of it.

I guess the question is, how sharp is practical? You can only get so sharp before the edge breaks down since we aren't doing a machine-ground double or triple bevel, and also I prefer a smoother blade otherwise I would just stick to shavettes since they are always very sharp without the maintenance. So for me, 30K is a fun experiment and I'll probably keep a few edges with that, but I really do prefer the ILR edge right now.

 

[dabrock]

Oh no, something like 32k bu the numbers, but Sharpening Supplies just lists it as 30k like the 0.49u full size HR.

Notably, they list the 0.85u as 17k, not 16k.

Shapton has always been difficult to ‘parse’.

And a little tidbit here, per the table from Jende, Shapton do not recommend the 16k for razors. When Mark forwarded to me the reply from Shapton Japan about my defective 0.44u, they said that I didn’t really need it since I had the 0.85u, implying that the ‘17k’ G7, unlike the 16k HR, was razor grade.

Go figure. Two steps forward, one step back. @David has had a 0.44u longer than me, maybe he can add some wisdom here.

That's odd, the calculator I used said .44 = 52K, but as you say, Sharpton is a little odd with their numbers. So 16K isn't razor grade but 17K is? I'm really confused now lol. I thought that 12K is pretty much razor grade and many even shave on an 8k edge.

I'm going to play around with the 16K stone as a finisher and see how it feels.

 

[Steve56]

Microns are universal, grits are not, and depend on which standard that‘s being used. There are several grit standards including archaic ones.

To pile on some misery, no matter which standard is used, the grit rating can be reported differently depending on where on the grit distribution curve the manufacturer decides to use. If you want to dig through the archives at the ‘Palace’, they have a document from Norton that kind of, sort of, says this. Don’t bother, you’ll kill more brain cells than a quart of gin.

The important concept to take out of this is that all synths are a distribution of grits, not a single grit. Some are narrow (good ones) some are wide (cheap ones), and the same grit can be reported differently by different manufacturers.

 

[Steve56]

I think that as time goes in we will see much more. There are already lapping films that are 1/10 of a micron. And they've been around a long while. But we are pushing the envelope. And it's an endless quest to try something else. And I'm sure the cbn and diamond bonded stones will make their way into mainstream honing. I have the venev diamond bonded for knives. They work great. Dmts do also. But the dmts wear while the bonded stones can be refreshed for that new stone feel. New stones coming your way soon. I have no idea what but you can be sure of it.

I very much agree Bill. Somehow I think that abrasive development will outstrip straight razor steel development.

Will it will matter to SR user? Probably not. I compared a Naniwa 10k to a Suehiro 20k. There wasn’t much difference in the edges. I could tell a little difference ATG in some areas. I could be happy shaving off a Naniwa 10k and know people that actually do so. Is the difference worth the price? Lol, that the universal question with razors, stones, soaps, brushes, cars, toothpaste, everything.

 

[dabrock]

Microns are universal, grits are not, and depend on which standard that‘s being used. There are several grit standards including archaic ones.

To pile on some misery, no matter which standard is used, the grit rating can be reported differently depending on where on the grit distribution curve the manufacturer decides to use. If you want to dig through the archives at the ‘Palace’, they have a document from Norton that kind of, sort of, says this. Don’t bother, you’ll kill more brain cells than a quart of gin.

The important concept to take out of this is that all synths are a distribution of grits, not a single grit. Some are narrow (good ones) some are wide (cheap ones), and the same grit can be reported differently by different manufacturers.


View attachment 1295759

Thanks, that's very informative and clears up a few things.

 

[C FrankC]

I have a near complete set of Shapton full size HR stones including 8,10,16 & 30K.
I find that past 8K stone surface prep-condition makes a significant difference in the outcome on razors.
If I freshly lap any of these on an Atoma 400 and try to hone I will usually get edge artifacts that are problematic, errant deeper stria equaling (micro chips).
Post lapping stone polishing of the surfaces along with diligent control of very light pressure while honing will give in most cases very keen results.
IMHO not all razor steels like this progression and I don't like this method on many razors in that they tend to be somewhat tedious to shave with and well they feel VERY synthetic, something I don't really care for.
I find the G20 to be a more forgiving stone in the half micron range that produces a more face friendly edge for my face, YMMV!

 

[dabrock]

I have a near complete set of Shapton full size HR stones including 8,10,16 & 30K.
I find that past 8K stone surface prep-condition makes a significant difference in the outcome on razors.
If I freshly lap any of these on an Atoma 400 and try to hone I will usually get edge artifacts that are problematic, errant deeper stria equaling (micro chips).
Post lapping stone polishing of the surfaces along with diligent control of very light pressure while honing will give in most cases very keen results.
IMHO not all razor steels like this progression and I don't like this method on many razors in that they tend to be somewhat tedious to shave with and well they feel VERY synthetic, something I don't really care for.
I find the G20 to be a more forgiving stone in the half micron range that produces a more face friendly edge for my face, YMMV!

Interesting, thanks for your post. What do you mean by a synthetic feel? Is it a harsher edge than a natural stone?

 

[Steve56]

Shapton 0.44u G7 edge report: It was very good. The razor was a Filarmonica 14 user with one shave on a JNat edge, then it received 20 strokes on the 0.44u G7. Visible swarf occurred so I am believeing that I had a 0.44u edge.

The edge was very comfortable, not grabby or ‘bitey’. I had maybe one tiny ‘red dot’ on my chin, which is not unusual with any but the best JNat edge when not being super careful, and I shaving as with a fine JNat edge. I wanted to see if the edge manifested any bad traits. It really didn’t. AS sting was non-existant. I used a two-pass shave, WTG and ATG with a dry touch up pass afterwards on the neck.

How does the 0.44u G7 compare to the Gokumyo 20k? There’s not much if any difference. I don’t have the Shapton 30k Pro or 30k HR glass stone, so I cannot be of help there. FWIW, I found that there wasn’t a lot of difference between the 10k and 12k Naniwas SS and the Gokumyo 20k, but my beard is not that tough, it’s rather average. If you’re an ironbeard the 20k and 30k stones might be preferable.

How does the 0.44u G7 compare to a fine JNat edge? The fine JNat edge is smoother but the difference is not enough to go down the JNat rabbit hole unless that’s part of the experience for you.

Right now the price structure is roughly:

Shapton G7 0.44u - $109
Suehiro Gokumyo 20k - about $235-245
Shapton Glass HR 30k - about $350

If you finish hone a lot on synths the Suehiro is going to be the stone to have.

 

[dabrock]

Shapton 0.44u G7 edge report: It was very good. The razor was a Filarmonica 14 user with one shave on a JNat edge, then it received 20 strokes on the 0.44u G7. Visible swarf occurred so I am believeing that I had a 0.44u edge.

The edge was very comfortable, not grabby or ‘bitey’. I had maybe one tiny ‘red dot’ on my chin, which is not unusual with any but the best JNat edge when not being super careful, and I shaving as with a fine JNat edge. I wanted to see if the edge manifested any bad traits. It really didn’t. AS sting was non-existant. I used a two-pass shave, WTG and ATG woth a dry touch up pass afterwards on the neck.

How does the 0.44u G7 compare to the Gokumyo 20k? There’s not much if any difference. I don’t have the Shapton 30k Pro or 30k HR glass stone, so I cannot be of help there. FWIW, I found that there wasn’t a lot of difference between the 10k and 12k Naniwas SS and the Gokumyo 20k, but my beard is not that tough, it’s rather average. If you’re an ironbeard the 20k and 30k stones might be preferable.

How does the 0.44u G7 compare to a fine JNat edge? The fine JNat edge is smoother but the difference is not enough to go down the JNat rabbit hole unless that’s part of the experience for you.

Right now the price structure is roughly:

Shapton G7 0.44u - $109
Suehiro Gokumyo 20k - about $235-245
Shapton Glass HR 30k - about $350

If you finish hone a lot on synths the Suehiro is going to be the stone to have.

View attachment 1296156

That's good to hear, it's certainly a bargain compared to many of those stones, especially the JNats.

 

[Steve56]

That's good to hear, it's certainly a bargain compared to many of those stones, especially the JNats.

The problem with JNats is not so much getting one for $100 or so, it’s getting one that really good regardless of price, but then they’re natural hones, like coticules.

There’s also a ‘new kid on the block’ WRT to ultra sharp edges, the re-introduced Pierre La Lune. It can produce an edge as keen as the 20k - 30k stones, but IME it takes some trial and error to get edges that are not too aggressive. The price is currently reasonable, about $155 for a 150 x 60mm - 6 x 2-1/2”, which is a nice razor size.

 

[dabrock]

The problem with JNats is not so much getting one for $100 or so, it’s getting one that really good regardless of price, but then they’re natural hones, like coticules.

There’s also a ‘new kid on the block’ WRT to ultra sharp edges, the re-introduced Pierre La Lune. It can produce an edge as keen as the 20k - 30k stones, but IME it takes some trial and error to get edges that are not too aggressive. The price is currently reasonable, about $155 for a 150 x 60mm - 6 x 2-1/2”, which is a nice razor size.

I recently saw a video on those stones, they look rather nice.

 

[Steve56]

They’re certainly interesting, the first ‘new’ offering in a long time that has good prospects as a finisher. I just re-finished that user Filly, 20 on the 0.44u, then 8 on the La Lune with DWD and water.

 

[dabrock]

The problem with JNats is not so much getting one for $100 or so, it’s getting one that really good regardless of price, but then they’re natural hones, like coticules.

There’s also a ‘new kid on the block’ WRT to ultra sharp edges, the re-introduced Pierre La Lune. It can produce an edge as keen as the 20k - 30k stones, but IME it takes some trial and error to get edges that are not too aggressive. The price is currently reasonable, about $155 for a 150 x 60mm - 6 x 2-1/2”, which is a nice razor size.

And now you've made me order a Pierre La Lune!

I was just looking at @Gamma 's review on his site and it looks like it eats razors if you aren't careful or they are too soft. I wonder if my GDs will hold up to it.

 

[Steve56]

Scott @life2short1971 has been doing extensive testing, he’s using 10 or less on Smith’s (mineral oil) or oil. 15-20 and the edge seems to get aggressive, cuts the top off everything lol. But the edge is smooth and results from 15 are impressive.

 

[dabrock]

Scott @life2short1971 has been doing extensive testing, he’s using 10 or less on Smith’s (mineral oil) or oil. 15-20 and the edge seems to get aggressive, cuts the top off everything lol. But the edge is smooth and results from 15 are impressive.

Sounds like an amazing finisher.

 

[Steve56]

Scott likes it more than I do so far, I think that it just suits his beard really well, but he’s noted the ‘bitey’ edges if you go to far on them. Again, that’s not to say that the ‘too far’ edges aren’t smooth or effective, they’re just aggressive.