Modern Espresso vs traditional

[Luc]

So, I was watching an espresso documentary on Netflix the other night (Coffee for all). I didn't think it would be great but it was a really good documentary. I watched it with subtitles as it's originally in Italian. It's still worth it!

A bit of background. I used to drink filter coffee when I was a kid. I then went through the phase of "Flavoured coffee" which lasted a few months and moved towards Espresso and cappuccino.

A trip to Italy in the early 2000s made me realise that I don't get the same coffee bean locally (i.e. if I buy Lavazza in Italy vs the same package in Montreal). Plus I mainly drank Espresso instead of filter coffee.

Anyways, over time I also used a Bialetti and loved the simplicity. I've got a Krupp espresso machine and finally moved on a Saeco Aroma about 10 years ago. 1 repair in 10 years and that's it. I drink a daily double espresso every morning.

As much as possible, I try to buy organic/fairtrade coffee.

I've been using distilled water in my machine and the taste improved quite a bit. However, I recently read that : distilled water + espresso machine = Evil

I'm looking into a solution at the moment and might have found one. A BWT water filter that will soften the water and eliminate chlorine (Brita doesn't make the cut). Anyways, pending my remaining Brita filters.

I then found a whole lot of videos that are discussing the traditional Espresso vs Modern Espresso. Basically, Traditional will be how a barista would do it (by experience) on a daily basis and Modern is all about how much weight (coffee beans), the grind and the final weight of the coffee.

I also got one of those OCD tampers off Amazon and it works fairly well to flatten the coffee before extraction.

So, I have a scale but it doesn't fit in my Saeco. I bought an ultra thin scale but it's not leveled when I put it on the coffee machine which gives me an incorrect read.

I did my first coffee using the new tamper and weight 18grams of coffee. I timed 30 seconds which was maybe 2-3 seconds short to what I usually do. The coffee was really good but I will need to play with it and document what some would call my "recipe".

I also bought a burr grinder but I'm still waiting for it to show up. I probably didn't buy the best one but I also do not have a millionaire budget to put on it. It will probably be more consistent than my Krupp grinder where I count around 20 seconds (1 Mississippi, 2 Mississippi, 3 ...).

Anyways, just want to share the information that I just learned (most already know this but I've been living under a rock). I will report back on what I can measure to make the right espresso and avoid my espresso roulette routine!

 

[linty1]

Hi Luc, great little read, looking forward to following your journey. Was it... Montreal? That had many cafes on the sidewalk/cafe culture? I forget where it was. Maybe it was Quebec City?

 

[lloydrm]

The convenience and consistency of a Nespresso is impressive. The quality of the product: very very good. Expensive on the long run.
Traditional espresso is far less consistent. Too many variables to be controlled. If you find the right Café, where they have the scale and audience to control all variables cost-efficiently, then you are golden because a good traditional espresso is miles ahead of a "modern" espresso.

 

[Tirvine]

I have an old (over 50) Elektra lever and a Sette 270. After dialing in the grind and the timer (8.79 sec.) it is extremely consistent.

 

[APBinNCA]

Thanks for the recommendation and read! Let me throw some things at the wall:

Number one thing that concerns me is your water system. Filters are a rabbit hole, but the number one problem is how fast they can be clogged depending on your water. Sellers of these filters are not at all honest. The only thing I found that would work is a whole house system, but you have to run the water through different stages to get the right mineral balance. I use Third Wave water and have been for years now. They now have an espresso formula and packets for 5 gallons. My setup consists of two five gallon carboys and pumps. You put RO water and the packet in, mix, stick the pump on top and it's ready to use. Oh yeah, I forgot you can plumb a carboy to an espresso machine. That's why Third Wave came out with the 5 gallons in the first place, mobile espresso carts.

Number two, the grinder. First, if it doesn't work out, it can be used for brewed coffee. I have been through a few that aren't dedicated espresso grinders due to size and cost. One problem sighted is burr heat changing your espresso inconsistently. My solution was to buy a high end hand grinder and I couldn't be happier. I have been through a few cheap ones in the past, but the way the good ones function is like some kind of magic. You are getting the burr set you need without paying for the motor and supporting structure. I previously couldn't get fine enough control at the fine end, it would move too fine or too coarse.

Lastly, in the past I have built contraptions to hold scales that don't fit. I finally caved and bought one of the little scales that you will see at an espresso bar, not cheap. I think there are knockoffs if you look.

 

[Cesare]

You may be venturing into a subject as polemic as Arko!

If I'm not mistaken, the biggest chasm between the old timers and the new guys revolves around the roasting, where "traditionalists" favor a darker roast, while "the new generation" would go for a a light roast. Each side claiming that the people on the other side don't have a clue about what they're doing.

Also, if I'm not mistaken once more, traditionalist will favor a blend (sometimes with a small percentage of Robusta in it), while the new guys are 100% Arabica, "single malt".

I wouldn't go so far as to say the "young fellows" don't know what they're doing, because the stuff they drink tastes like lemon tea, not coffee. As any sensible person would agree.

As to the weighting, a friend of mine, who is a coffee aficionado (and understands quite a lot about the subject) swears that precise weighting is necessary. But, most of all, he says that the devil is in the grinding and that any serious espresso maker must get a proper grinder (he suggests the manual Comandante, Swiss made). It's something about the burr that I won't be able to replicate. He says that unless you go for a professional grinder, the electric grinders that you'd normally get won't give you the desired result. And that the professional stuff is too biig for your home. I wouldn't know about any of that, but I can say that the whole process is quite cool and calming. Forgot to mention it, but he weights the beans before grinding them.

If you want to have some fun, I suggest you look into the Flair manual espresso maker. I have one (the basic model) and it works really, really well. I weight the coffee (because my friend told me to). However, at home, I usually use the Moka (I'm a huge fan), or a Nespresso (usually with capsules from other producers).

In the end, I think this is very similar to wet shaving, the old school barbers vs the new trends. It's very difficult to get the 2 tribes to talk. But each on their own, their beautiful to watch.

Last but not least, nothing beats an espresso at a bar (an Italian style bar, I mean) or at a restaurant, after a meal.

 

[APBinNCA]

If you want to have some fun, I suggest you look into the Flair manual espresso maker.

We may not agree on roasting, but we definitely agree on grinding. I have the new flare 58 and it is the most controllable thing I have used since working in a cafe. An absolute nerds delight. Now, your basic flare is 90% as capable so I recommend jumping in and figuring out a routine that will let you use it more. I am down to 7 minutes, 9 if I clean up, from walking in to the kitchen to walking out with a coffee. It's literally as fast as a press pot.

 

[Cesare]

We may not agree on roasting, but we definitely agree on grinding. I have the new flare 58 and it is the most controllable thing I have used since working in a cafe. An absolute nerds delight. Now, your basic flare is 90% as capable so I recommend jumping in and figuring out a routine that will let you use it more. I am down to 7 minutes, 9 if I clean up, from walking in to the kitchen to walking out with a coffee. It's literally as fast as a press pot.

LOL! No worries, I'm cool with the roasting. I have come to terms with the fact that I'm an old schooler who may never fully appreciate the light, more acidic roasts.

But you're right about the Flair. After the first 3 or 4 espressos, you just get it and it becomes absolutely easy to use. Anybody interested in making espresso at home ("enjoying it", not mass producing 12 cups for guests after dinner in 4 minutes), should try it. I think the combo "Flair + Whatever Other Method Suits the Person" is much better (and more affordable) than the vast majority of home machines out there. Not very different from the DEs vs Multi-blade cartridges world.

PS. I didn't know the Flair 58! Wow!!!! Congratulations!

 

[APBinNCA]

I didn't know the Flair 58! Wow!!!! Congratulations!

Thanks, I try not to brag. Only mention it if it is relevant. I was likely one the first to get a production version, there was some sneaky ebay style sniping on my part during the pre-order.

I have a tip for you with lighter roasts: Use higher temperature, 95-97c. You can also up the dose or reduce the ratio, even though that isn't the norm. Also, long pre-infusion is a must. I am pretty confident that I could pull a shot that you would like from a lightish roast, not the ultra-light stuff though. I can't hand grind that for espresso. Taste wise, what lighter roast should give, in espresso, is a juicy or fruity character. The trick is figuring out how to get a balanced flavor. You have to read about what flavor components are extracted at what point in the extraction and figure out how far to go. It's not too hard to just pull a ristretto and taste it. Then, keeping everything else the same, pull a little longer. Keep going until you don't like the taste then go back to where it still tasted enjoyable.

Also if you aren't using it, there is supposed to be a contraption for holding your brew chamber on top of your kettle. I think there is a video about making one if you don't want to buy it.

 

[Luc]

Hi Luc, great little read, looking forward to following your journey. Was it... Montreal? That had many cafes on the sidewalk/cafe culture? I forget where it was. Maybe it was Quebec City?

I’m in Montreal yes. There are a lot of little cafes around. I tried many, like and disliked many. To be honest, the Saeco that I have home is difficult to beat.

 

[Luc]

Sounds like the ar-press-ko debate might be on!

anyways, I will see how everything turns one I get everything. I already started using my scale to load the coffee. The OCD tamper is easy to use and I like it a lot. For now, I need to measure where I need to stop the brew and time it. If the grind is consistent, time should roughly be consistent too!

 

[Eben Stone]

Wow I didn't realize making espresso is supposed to be so complicated. I use a 21 year old "cheap" Il Caffe Duomo by Krupps, with almond milk (if I want latte/cappuccino), Starbucks ground espresso, and filtered (or sometimes not) tap water. I use a tamper and put my full weight into it. I've never been to Italy, I dont buy my coffee from a cafe, and I'm sure some of you would probably gag at the coffee I make or laugh at the way I make it. I dont find it all the difficult to make it consistent. I enjoy it, it's not a chore to make, and it tastes good to me.

I've been making it the same way for maybe 25 years, so perhaps I've picked up a few tricks along the way.

 

[Four for Luck]

There is so much I can’t say anything about.
In the late 90’s I worked for Starbucks. We used machines that ground the dark ”espresso roast” coffee to preset 2 ounce weights. We needed to learn how to tamp the handle to have a 16 second draw from the espresso machine. Too short a draw was weak. Too long and you got over extracted drink.
We were to have about a 1/16” of crime on top.

 

[Luc]

Wow I didn't realize making espresso is supposed to be so complicated. I use a 21 year old "cheap" Il Caffe Duomo by Krupps, with almond milk (if I want latte/cappuccino), Starbucks ground espresso, and filtered (or sometimes not) tap water. I use a tamper and put my full weight into it. I've never been to Italy, I dont buy my coffee from a cafe, and I'm sure some of you would probably gag at the coffee I make or laugh at the way I make it. I dont find it all the difficult to make it consistent. I enjoy it, it's not a chore to make, and it tastes good to me.

I've been making it the same way for maybe 25 years, so perhaps I've picked up a few tricks along the way.

to be honest, I didn’t think either. I’m happy with my morning cup. But...

What if, it could be better? I don’t have much to loose.

 

[Ad Astra]

With us, it's Latin roast versus Italian roast.

As South Floridians, we find the Italian ones bitter - Lavazza etc. Latin ones such as Bustelo, Pilon, La Llave and so forth hit the sweet spot.

Well. Non-bitter spot.

And when I buy and grind espresso beans... Comes out "Italian," usually.


AA

 

[Eben Stone]

There is so much I can’t say anything about.
In the late 90’s I worked for Starbucks. We used machines that ground the dark ”espresso roast” coffee to preset 2 ounce weights. We needed to learn how to tamp the handle to have a 16 second draw from the espresso machine. Too short a draw was weak. Too long and you got over extracted drink.
We were to have about a 1/16” of crime on top.

Did they make you sign an NDA? That's the best explanation I've read so far. The challenge I come across is I get used to a certain grind and learn to tamper it so its packed approriately, but then decide to experiment with a different grind, and it seems like I'm starting all over. I cant make up my mind between 4.0, 4.5, 5.0, because my machine is finicky.

 

[Tirvine]

Although there is an apparent wealth of knowledge already here, anyone wanting to delve into espresso ought to check out Coffeegeek. It is to espresso as Badger and Blade is to wet shaving. You can dig into why the precision and uniformity of the grind is critical (full extraction and avoidance of channeling leading the way), why managing water temperature is important and how to avoid sour or bitter shots due to water temperature, etc. There is plenty of advice on equipment, some of it even respectful of budgets. (You can spend what you think of as car prices on espresso gear.)

 

[Mick]

I get great enjoyment out of coffee discussions. It's almost as heated as religion or politics. I rarely join in, as in religion and politics, everyone is set/stuck in their beliefs.

I do everything by sight, sound and smell. From roasting to brewing. It's not science, it's coffee. Much of "modern coffee" seems to reduce the pleasure of the cup.

Like with shaving, remember the 3 Ps

Practice
Patience
Persistence

That is all you need....
and coffee
and something to make it in

 

[TexLaw]

If I'm not mistaken, the biggest chasm between the old timers and the new guys revolves around the roasting, where "traditionalists" favor a darker roast, while "the new generation" would go for a a light roast. Each side claiming that the people on the other side don't have a clue about what they're doing.

Also, if I'm not mistaken once more, traditionalist will favor a blend (sometimes with a small percentage of Robusta in it), while the new guys are 100% Arabica, "single malt".

These do seem to be the largest issues between the traditional and the modern. I'm somewhere in between, myself. I prefer a blend and a touch of robusto, but I max my espresso roasts out at around FC/FC+.

 

[Cesare]

For me, anything that doesn’t rob you of the pleasure of drinking coffee will do. I also go through phases (at home), using different things (Moka, Flair, Nespresso machine either with their own capsules or not, etc).

There’s a lot of difference also in the way people drink their coffee. Cultural traits as well. Not only product and extraction method, but the time it takes for them to drink it and the circumstances, for instance. Those may also affect choices and preferences. Filtered coffee, “on the spot”, with its smell and freshness can be excellent. Store in in a thermos for 2 hours and you may have a different opinion.

When talking about synthetic brushes, some guys give the (very good, in my opinion) advice of not comparing synths to bagers or boars, but instead enjoying them for what they are. I find that’s a good approach to coffee. Almost any method and product will have more advantages than disadvantages on their side.

My only either/or is not related to coffee variations; but with tea. Coffee all the way. With the exception of the sporadic camomile or lemongrass tea one a blue moon, I don’t drink the stuff.