Tallow makes shaves worse?

[chuckd]

I'm on my second stick of Arko, which I mostly use when traveling. The first one worked well for me, but the second one has seemed to lack both cushioning and slickness, resulting in skin irritation and nicks. Some Palmolive sticks arrived recently, which I will soon be auditioning as replacements for Arko.

I have several other tallow-based soaps that work well for me, so I do not believe that the tallow is the root of your unpleasant Arko experience.

 

[Kyle89]

Arko did not work for me at first, and ditched it pretty early on. The issues I had were face drying and irritation (turns out it was brush burn).

When I revisited it, I experimented with it quite a bit and found out that if I only loaded (stick pressed into a bowl) for like 10-15 seconds with a very wet/soaked brush (not even shaken out, or perhaps shaking it out once if it's a bigger brush) then my prior issues seemed to be corrected. My "experimenting" with it turned it into my daily driver. It works for me, but can completely understand if someone isn't into the whole thing.


Wet lather for me is key. If it's not falling off my straight razor, it is not wet enough.

 

[SydneyShaver]

Arko did not work for me at first, and ditched it pretty early on. The issues I had were face drying and irritation (turns out it was brush burn).

When I revisited it, I experimented with it quite a bit and found out that if I only loaded (stick pressed into a bowl) for like 10-15 seconds with a very wet/soaked brush (not even shaken out, or perhaps shaking it out once if it's a bigger brush) then my prior issues seemed to be corrected. My "experimenting" with it turned it into my daily driver. It works for me, but can completely understand if someone isn't into the whole thing.


Wet lather for me is key. If it's not falling off my straight razor, it is not wet enough.

Soap works fine and I don't have any issues with burn or irritation or anything. Just the overall health of my skin seems to be improved from using non-tallow cream/soap. It's just as cheap too, so I thought it was more the tallow then anything else. I don't really care overall, its too cheap to complain about it. I was just more interested if other people had this as well.

 

[Hachet]

I own so much soap it would make you gasp. I prefer vegan or plant based. And no, I'm not a vegan. I eat bacon and sausage for breakfast every morning and will swallow an entire cow at a BBQ. Non-tallow soaps are generally superior in every way, Stirling and Tabac being obvious exceptions.

 

[SydneyShaver]

I own so much soap it would make you gasp. I prefer vegan or plant based. And no, I'm not a vegan. I eat bacon and sausage for breakfast every morning and will swallow an entire cow at a BBQ. Non-tallow soaps are generally superior in every way, Stirling and Tabac being obvious exceptions.

This seems to be the case from my limited experience. For my face at least, they just perform and feel a lot better. Even on the lower end of the cost scale. Everyone seems to have different opinions though so the jury is out!

 

[Kyle89]

Soap works fine and I don't have any issues with burn or irritation or anything. Just the overall health of my skin seems to be improved from using non-tallow cream/soap. It's just as cheap too, so I thought it was more the tallow then anything else. I don't really care overall, its too cheap to complain about it. I was just more interested if other people had this as well.

Haha perhaps I should have quoted a few other posts I read which were the influence of my response, which weren’t necessarily in line with your original question. Some people here had issues with dryness and irritation so the post was merely something to try.

 

[numerounoo]

I own so much soap it would make you gasp. I prefer vegan or plant based. And no, I'm not a vegan. I eat bacon and sausage for breakfast every morning and will swallow an entire cow at a BBQ. Non-tallow soaps are generally superior in every way, Stirling and Tabac being obvious exceptions.

How are non-tallow soaps superior ?

 

[BigSpender]

No mosquitoes in the UK? DEET?

Citronella is ineffective against mosquitoes. It's a very persistent old wives tale. Believe me, I've lived in places with lots of mosquitoes; in the woods here they can sound like an outboard motor (Is that the boat, finally, or is just the mosquitoes?).

What works: mosquito coils with pyrethrin (natural extract from chrysanthemum flowers), DEET, and the new kid on the block, Picaridin. A lotion with 20 percent Picaridin will make you invisible to mosquitoes; you can even just spread some on a rock on the picnic table. It is also the safest option.

I dislike the scent of citronella, but I wouldn't compare it to a urinal. That's traditionally a camphor smell, which gives me an allergic reaction.

BTW, you might want to look at the pH of your shaving soaps, high alkalinity, as a possible cause of skin irritation. That might be coincident to some of the ingredients. After all, adding lye was originally how you made soap.

 

[BigSpender]

I've been thinking about this issue of tallow and irritation.

Another factor to consider is skin allergies. These can develop if you are exposed to the same substances every day for a long time. The substance travels below epidermis to the lymphatic circulatory layer below, where the body's immune system might decide it is the enemy and produce antibodies to it. Then, whenever the substance reaches the lymph system, your immune system produces an inflammatory response.

Nickel allergy is the most well-known; I think something like 10 percent of people have a nickel allergy. I do. But it takes hours of contact with a watch back with nickel in it to get the red skin response. So I can't see worrying about your razor blade.

I also worry about allergies or sensitivities to these herbal extracts they are putting in now. It looks to me they are added just to impress people who read ingredient labels. I doubt they are on your skin long enough to produce much benefit. But who knows what, exactly, they are doing?

Did you know the FDA does not test or approve the dyes used in tattoos parlors? They can and do put all sorts of stuff in there, under your skin, for the rest of your life. The idea is unimaginable to me.

I doubt the government tests or approves the stuff put into artisanal shave cream, either. Do the people making this stuff actually know what they are doing, and have expertise in all the stuff and extracts and scents they are throwing in? Or are they mainly aiming for a soap that looks good on a web page?

It seems to me that it would be a good idea not to shave with the same soap every day, month after month. 1) By alternating products, you might reduce the risk of developing an allergy. 2) If you have a sensitivity to a soap, you are more likely to realize it when you switch to another, milder soap, and then back again. 3) How about having a baseline shaving soap you know is mild, neutral and non-irritating to use periodically? It might help you to spot problems with other, newer soaps.

While I am not into fancy soaps, I think even when I use canned or tube shaving soap, I will alternate products now and then.

 

[BigSpender]

You're not really shaving with tallow. The tallow is a source of fatty acids that have been saponified to make tallowate, a soap. You might be reacting to one or more of the other Arko ingredients. Arko has glycerin and cosmetic grade mineral oil. But, so do many other products like lip balm, hand lotion, etc. Still, that might give you a greasy feeling on the skin.

Arko is a low-cost industrial product with fairly standard ingredients for a tallow shaving soap, except the mineral oil. There are chelating agents to deal with hard water. Synthetic fragrance chemicals. Titanium dioxide for white color. I would just try another product that works better for you, there are lots to choose from.

Ingredients: Potassium Tallowate, Stearic Acid, PotassiumCocoate, Aqua, Sodium Palm Kernelate, Glycerin, Parfum, Paraffinum Liquidium, Cl 77891, Tetrasodium EDTA, Etidronic Acid, Disodium Distrylbiphenyl Disulfonate, Amyl Cinnamal, Citronellol, Geraniol, Hexyl Cinnamal, Linalool​

(Mineral oil? Is there some fancy name for it? That's one thing I don't want on my skin. Seems to me its just some patent medicine cheap ingredient corporations like to throw in for filler.)

This makes sense.

If you want to find out if you are somehow sensitive to tallow, simple: Just buy some tallow, or make it yourself, and apply it to your face as you would when shaving. See if anything happens.

When it comes to food, we are far less likely to develop an acquired IgG allergy to meat than to vegetables, the exceptions being eggs and dairy products. I've never heard of anyone being allergic to beef or beef fat.

But, of course, most ingredients in most shaving soaps are modified substances, not in their natural form. But not all.

Natural, or made by science, it doesn't matter to me; what matters is whether I get a bad reaction to the soap, and whether I get a good shave.

 

[RayClem]

One of the most important ingredients in a high quality shave soap is stearic acid. Many soaps use animal fat (beef tallow, bison tallow, lamb tallow, bear fat, pig fat/lard) as it contains a lot of stearic acid. However, it is also possible to obtain stearic acid from plant sources such as Shea butter and Cacao butter or even pine trees as a by-product of the paper industry.

A soap made predominately from other fats such as palm oil, palm kernel oil, coconut oil, and olive oil may be quite slick, but unless the soap contains sufficient stearic acid, it is unlikely to produce a stable lather that will protect your skin.

There are a wide variety of soaps that contain various forms of animal fats. Soaps like ARKO do contain tallow. They are inexpensive and contain little in the way of spa quality ingredients to protect, moisturize and condition your skin. However, at the opposite extreme are some artisan soaps that are designed specifically to pamper your skin. ARKO leaves my face feeling tight and dry. Some artisan soaps will leave my skin feeling wonderful for 24 hours. Those are the soaps I most enjoy using.

 

[DaveHStone]

One of the most important ingredients in a high quality shave soap is stearic acid. Many soaps use animal fat (beef tallow, bison tallow, lamb tallow, bear fat, pig fat/lard) as it contains a lot of stearic acid. However, it is also possible to obtain stearic acid from plant sources such as Shea butter and Cacao butter or even pine trees as a by-product of the paper industry.

A soap made predominately from other fats such as palm oil, palm kernel oil, coconut oil, and olive oil may be quite slick, but unless the soap contains sufficient stearic acid, it is unlikely to produce a stable lather that will protect your skin.

There are a wide variety of soaps that contain various forms of animal fats. Soaps like ARKO do contain tallow. They are inexpensive and contain little in the way of spa quality ingredients to protect, moisturize and condition your skin. However, at the opposite extreme are some artisan soaps that are designed specifically to pamper your skin. ARKO leaves my face feeling tight and dry. Some artisan soaps will leave my skin feeling wonderful for 24 hours. Those are the soaps I most enjoy using.

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THIS!!!

@SydneyShaver, I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable on this subject as @RayClem, but I can tell when my face feels great after a shave.

I also believe that artisan soaps like A&E (my favorite) make the shave such a great experience overall, as they contain ingredients that moisturize the skin throughout the entire shave. I think this is a paramount objective, as doing 3-4 passes means having lather sitting on your face for 15-20 minutes or more. Now imagine, if that soap is drying your skin, it'll be a bad shave. OTOH, if that soap is rich with a lot of moisturizing and protective ingredients, it will nurture your skin all the way throughout the shave, so it's like a real beauty spa treatment.

This is why you don't need anything else after finishing your shave with - say - A&E soap. Whereas, if you use a soap that dries your skin, you need to apply moisturizer, but the effect will not be the same. Moisturizing a dried freshly shaven skin is like a damage repair job. Instead, it is much better to ensure that moisturization and protection throughout the shave.

For example, I use A&E as pre-shave (just a little bit of proto lather), shave soap and I also rub and massage the lather leftovers post-shave, until I clean my gear and tidy up the bathroom. Only then, I go to rinse my face, etc.

 

[SydneyShaver]

All great points everyone. I guess I'm not expecting the world from arko. I never did, I never will. At $3, anything other than horrific pain makes it a value buy. That is it's inherent purpose. I don't plan to shave exclusively with arko pretty much ever however it was and at the moment, is the only tallow based product I have used. I've used all of the TOBS and DRH creams, GPure, Proraso, KoS gel and a few different canned products all of which do not have tallow. I never experienced poor skin health with any of these (except the canned stuff; I think it was the aerosol and high alcohol content). I do not get drying from arko. I don't get irritation in shaves (not until I've used it for a while). BUT overall, my skin was becoming more blemished and sensitive. I chalked it up to it having tallow but I guess it's just cheap and not really suitable for my daily needs. It still works excellently though.

 

[AZBronco]

Buy what works for you and give up on stuff that irritates you or that you don’t enjoy. I would be surprised if it was the tallow, though—more likely one of the synthetic ingredients. It could also be the concentration of a specific ingredient and not necessarily that it’s present in other soaps or canned stuff you’ve used in the ost.

 

[Atlantic59]

(Mineral oil? Is there some fancy name for it?...

Paraffinum Liquidium: highly refined mineral oil derived from petroleum.

It's a very common ingredient in cosmetics, baby oil, sunscreen, skin lotions, lip balm, etc. It's used even in some expensive products. It's also approved for internal use in laxatives.

Vaseline is petrolatum. It's commonly used for dressing wounds and treating burns.

 

[South Dakota Guy]

'Artisanal' shave soap costs way too much in Australia. The mass produced creams are much better value (by a long margin). I was just wondering if it was the tallow in the soap since I've used products with the other ingredients and haven't had any issues. More a query of interest than an exclamation. I agree that Arko is low quality, but it is priced accordingly.

It sounds to me that you have just discovered a business opportunity down under. It sounds to me like some of you Australian gentlemen should band together and create your own shaving soap company. And I know this will sound mocking but you could even try Kangaroo tallow or some such. Maybe Emu tallow. Here in the states companies use buffalo, bear and duck tallows in their soaps. If you make it I will try it. You could possibly even get WCS and Maggard's to carry it. Who knows how big it could get?

 

[TexOkie Shaver]

˄˄˄˄˄˄
THIS!!!

@SydneyShaver, I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable on this subject as @RayClem, but I can tell when my face feels great after a shave.

I also believe that artisan soaps like A&E (my favorite) make the shave such a great experience overall, as they contain ingredients that moisturize the skin throughout the entire shave. I think this is a paramount objective, as doing 3-4 passes means having lather sitting on your face for 15-20 minutes or more. Now imagine, if that soap is drying your skin, it'll be a bad shave. OTOH, if that soap is rich with a lot of moisturizing and protective ingredients, it will nurture your skin all the way throughout the shave, so it's like a real beauty spa treatment.

This is why you don't need anything else after finishing your shave with - say - A&E soap. Whereas, if you use a soap that dries your skin, you need to apply moisturizer, but the effect will not be the same. Moisturizing a dried freshly shaven skin is like a damage repair job. Instead, it is much better to ensure that moisturization and protection throughout the shave.

For example, I use A&E as pre-shave (just a little bit of proto lather), shave soap and I also rub and massage the lather leftovers post-shave, until I clean my gear and tidy up the bathroom. Only then, I go to rinse my face, etc.

Awesome post David, with lots of good info. This whole thread has been very informative

I was considering giving Arko a shot, but hearing that it is drying seals the deal for me against ever trying it.

I use mostly soaps with lanolin. Like David, I use a bit of soap without any water as a preshave, and then when I clean up, I apply the remaining soap to my face and let it sit there until I’m done cleaning my tools. The result is that my skin on my head, cheeks, and throat is much softer than my forehead, ears and back of the neck. I believe it’s the lanolin that does the trick.

The tip on the Picaridin is great. I always wondered why Avon Skin So Soft repelled flying insects so well. Now I know.

Thanks all for an informative thread.

 

[DaveHStone]

Awesome post David, with lots of good info. This whole thread has been very informative

I was considering giving Arko a shot, but hearing that it is drying seals the deal for me against ever trying it.

I use mostly soaps with lanolin. Like David, I use a bit of soap without any water as a preshave, and then when I clean up, I apply the remaining soap to my face and let it sit there until I’m done cleaning my tools. The result is that my skin on my head, cheeks, and throat is much softer than my forehead, ears and back of the neck. I believe it’s the lanolin that does the trick.

The tip on the Picaridin is great. I always wondered why Avon Skin So Soft repelled flying insects so well. Now I know.

Thanks all for an informative thread.

To be honest @TexOkie Shaver I was just echoing what @RayClem said. I 've been going through some old(er) threads and found great info about some of the soaps I'm looking into and Ray's info has been invaluable. The guy is like a Library of Congress for Soaps, I kid you not!

 

[TexOkie Shaver]

To be honest @TexOkie Shaver I was just echoing what @RayClem said. I 've been going through some old(er) threads and found great info about some of the soaps I'm looking into and Ray's info has been invaluable. The guy is like a Library of Congress for Soaps, I kid you not!

@RayClem you should start a thread with everything you know about soaps. I for one would read it. Maybe put it in your journal and then post a link when it’s done.

@DaveHStone don’t sell yourself short. I know you are a source of good info on Feather blades and soaps such as A&E. You are the reason I ordered Kaizen and now love it more than The Fat...and I think you know how I feel about The Fat. Don’t sell yourself short. You and I agree on more than we disagree, so when you post something, I pay attention.

 

[DaveHStone]

@RayClem you should start a thread with everything you know about soaps. I for one would read it. Maybe put it in your journal and then post a link when it’s done.

@DaveHStone don’t sell yourself short. I know you are a source of good info on Feather blades and soaps such as A&E. You are the reason I ordered Kaizen and now love it more than The Fat...and I think you know how I feel about The Fat. Don’t sell yourself short. You and I agree on more than we disagree, so when you post something, I pay attention.

@TexOkie Shaver I'm humbled!

Thank you for the kind words.

I too would sign up for @RayClem's soap-journal!