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Stropping & the Edge-On-Up Industrial Edge Tester

I have several of the fairly cheap electronic or USB or whatever they're called modern scopes and dislike most of them because they're a huge pain so...

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I mostly use this one. It's simple to use. Easy as pie. The magnification is enough for my purposes I think, but I could be wrong (and maybe that's what you're saying).

Link to a vendor (not the vendor I used). This microscope is very inexpensive. Very handy. Very small. Not electronic.

I think it would be useful to share this conversation with the Edge On Up people (and I believe you agree). From the emails I've received from them they're very clearly saying they've seen the problems you're reporting before, and that they understand the issue, and that it's indicative of something (exactly what I'm not sure I understand).

In any case, we both want sharp, comfortable, and undamaged edges. I want, too, for this device to be useful and reliable and safe for my edges, but what I want is not always possible.

Happy shaves,

Jim

Thanks for posting this.

Scott
 
Here’s three tests on that very hard steel herder that’s about 20°, and you can see how thick ground it is by how narrow the bevel is. Usually I can’t even get half of the bevel into my field of view, But this razor barely takes up a third of it. These chips came from successful tests with scores of 16 g, 20 g, and 41 g.
 

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Do you guys use stuff like Industrial Diamond Powder 50,000 Grit, 0-0.5microns for sharpening? I see it's not that expensive.
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
I've done some limited testing today. I have not experienced a chip but I've only tested three razors:

1. J.A. Henckels 81 Emperor
2. Thomas Mgf Co (this razor had a prior chip blade that I restored)
3. Dovo Diamant

I'm still working on a consistent technique for pushing down. I've settled for resting my forearms on the edge of the table. I've used the fulcrum and I've freehanded the tests. Again, I'm trying to get consistent pressure. For me this is a huge variable in my test results.

I did notice that every part of the blade yields a different result (similar to Jim's).

I refreshed the J.A. Henckel today using a Norton 8000 then an ILR. 10 laps on linen between hones. Then 10 laps linen and strop on an Heirloom #2 Roughout Heavy Draw Strop before the first test.

Here are some test results from the J.A. Henckels. I tried to take the media test from the same spot, the middle of the blade:

Pic #1: Test results with no additional stropping.

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Test # 2: I did 6 heavy laps on a tightly pulled strop. Heavy meaning with a constant pressure and torqueing my wrist.

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Test result #3: I went back to the strop and did 20 on linen then 100 normal laps.


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It shaved smooth.

Impressive results, sir.

Happy shaves,

Jim
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
Do you guys use stuff like Industrial Diamond Powder 50,000 Grit, 0-0.5microns for sharpening? I see it's not that expensive.

I'm not opposed to it, but no.

I've used only stones, synthetic and natural, and pasted strops. My strops are pasted with CrOx and with Devo Red & Black (I have three pasted strops). Of course, I have non pasted strops too.

Happy shaves,

Jim
 
Do you guys use stuff like Industrial Diamond Powder 50,000 Grit, 0-0.5microns for sharpening? I see it's not that expensive.


I haven't used any pastes in ten years. I really dislike the feel of the edge off pastes. No argument that it makes a very sharp edge though, and it is supposed to round off the bevel with use, so probably would help make edges more durable for these tests... but my primary reason for wanting this was to test different finishers... and pasted strops basically over-write the finisher with their own edge... so it'd defeat the purpose for me even if it did help with the chips.
 
So Mike (the manufacturer) offered me a narrower fulcrum to help with using it with straight razors, but the vendor also responded saying they will allow a return, so I'm going to go that route. Mike also mentioned that they've had reports of chipping with knives under 12* (24*)... which is almost exactly what my testing seems to suggest would be the angle at which the edge gets durable enough for this (right around where DE blades are)... if I were still cooking as much as I used to, I could see an argument for keeping it for my knives, but sadly, it's just not able to do what I bought it for, so back it goes. I wish everyone else luck with theirs.
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
So Mike (the manufacturer) offered me a narrower fulcrum to help with using it with straight razors, but the vendor also responded saying they will allow a return, so I'm going to go that route. Mike also mentioned that they've had reports of chipping with knives under 12* (24*)... which is almost exactly what my testing seems to suggest would be the angle at which the edge gets durable enough for this (right around where DE blades are)... if I were still cooking as much as I used to, I could see an argument for keeping it for my knives, but sadly, it's just not able to do what I bought it for, so back it goes. I wish everyone else luck with theirs.

I've email asking Mike about getting a narrower fulcrum. Thanks.
 
Well so far I’m the only one who’s been having issues with chipping. The narrow fulcrum will definitely help avoid that in the future for people who are having better luck with it as it is. And I’m sure Mike would appreciate having some one who uses this with straight razors to get more data on how they could improve in the future.
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
Is it worth it?
(that's not meant to be combative, I'm just interested)

Maybe. I'm not sure yet.

I've not used it much yet + it hasn't helped me yet in my honing.

However, I believe it will help me, and not just a little bit as I learn to use it better and as it continues to inform my honing. If so, worth it it will be.

For someone who is already a very seasoned honer (meaning someone who knows the straight razors they hone are consistently sharper than a Feather DE blade) it might be interesting, but I'm not there just yet.

I say all this with little experience so far and with a firm knowledge that I generally am not a fan of gimmicks nor of measuring everything. Still, I'm very lousy at understanding and doing all the various tests guys do (other than the shave test) to see how sharp their edges are and hope this will help me along that road.

That amounts to a long "maybe."

Happy shaves,

Jim
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
I have a crazy idea which I've shared with the manufacturer and also posted on a thread here which discusses standardizing sharpness testing by using purchased human hair. Here's a link to that thread.

The following quoted material is what I emailed to the manufacturer of the Edge On Up. It's part of my ongoing conversation with Mike:

So, this may be a crazy idea, but I'll share it.

I'm not entirely sure if I understand how the instrument works but I think it records maximum applied force in which case I think maybe this idea would work.

It has been mentioned on B&B that the strongest thing a straight razor blade cuts is hair. Guys do tests (the hanging hair test, etc) with human hair (sometimes purchased in bundles). Human hair is not going to damage any edge!

Anyway, it occurs to me that the aluminum AFT-10G could maybe be modified to make it work with human hair (thus I'd call it the AFT-10HH). I think the modification could be done simply by making both of the top screws work like the screw which is angled upwards. Then a piece of hair could be easily secured at both ends of the device, just like it is currently secured at one end. If a guy were using a long piece of purchased hair he could either cut off and use the right length or leave one end hanging off the edge and pull it into place for the next cut.

Maybe the same thing could be done, sorta kinda, without modification of the AFT-10G using the existing screws? I'll have to look at the non angled screw more carefully to see what I think about the idea.

I have no idea if this is a stupid idea or crazy but it might work for the purposes most straight razor guys use the instrument and it might be easy enough to implement. It might also not be as scientifically accurate, but it would be close enough for many of us SR guys I think.

Crazy idea?

Your thoughts?

Happy shaves,

Jim
 
Isn't copper equivalent of human hair for hardness vs thickness? I see that touted often in media and forums. Copper litz wire is more standardized approach than human hair, and you can adjust its diameter to match the owners stubble (easily measurable with digital micrometer).
 

Chan Eil Whiskers

Fumbling about.
Isn't copper equivalent of human hair for hardness vs thickness? I see that touted often in media and forums. Copper litz wire is more standardized approach than human hair, and you can adjust its diameter to match the owners stubble (easily measurable with digital micrometer).

Check out the prices! They don't give it away that's for sure (at least not where I've looked).
 
Check out the prices! They don't give it away that's for sure (at least not where I've looked).
Copper Litz wire is used in high end cables for hi-fi. Notably in top of the range headphones and earphones.

Not surprised it's expensive to buy.

Human hair would be a much cheaper option.
 
Copper Litz wire is used in high end cables for hi-fi. Notably in top of the range headphones and earphones.

Not surprised it's expensive to buy.

Human hair would be a much cheaper option.

If you buy leads for welding, they have enough for thousands of tests. But it has to be copper, not copper clad aluminium, and that's gonna fatten up the price.
 
The problem is that is why you have to go down to tenths or even hundredths of a gram accuracy. A razor cuts dozens even hundreds of hairs at once with grams of force at most, the problem is that this test uses a harder media centered at a single point in the edge. To make it work with straight razors, It would need to test more of the edge at the same time but with a medium as soft as hair, or continue to test a single point but have much higher accuracy in the hundredths of a gram, So a reading could be gathered using something like a single human hair

A practical adaptation would be to use broader clips that would have several dozens of extremely soft filaments to test multiple points on the edge at once creating enough resistance that the force required could be measured in grams, Without having to exert all of that force at a single point on the edge. This would make refills extremely pricey though.
 
Just curious SliceOfLife - why are most of your razors in the 13- 14 degree range? Have you intentionally thinned them?
Its an awfully low angle.
 
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