Stropping & the Edge-On-Up Industrial Edge Tester

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

~19* Hodgeson Razor off 13000 grit JIS synthetic (0.74micron) =38g
~19* Catt Cut Co off Hard Arkansas = 36g

Fulcrum is falling out of favor on these finer finishes again. Will definitely be doing push cut from now on.
Down to FOUR razors that pass @ >18* angles, THREE which pass @ <18* angles and ONE <18* which cut easily but HAD MICROCHIPPING upon inspection after the test on Thuringian+ finishes. The rest all have edge fail immediately on touching the media using the fulcrum with a Thuri+ finish.


Total... seven razors that survive this tester using the fulcrum... 4 of which are so heavy ground, I consider them mediocre shavers at best... THREE actual survivors I'd shave with regularly... and I didn't scope them yet... I expect there's MOST LIKELY microchips I'm unaware of on them.


Ok, I scoped the three sub 18* razors, and two of them have microchips.

Only ONE of the sub 18* razors survived this test using the fulcrum undamaged.
FOUR passed with very good scores and didn't immediately appear damaged (required a 400x scope or multiple tests @ same location to discover)
ELEVEN passed on a less refined (but still shaving ready) edge


All my razors 17.5* up seem fine... but that's a small sample size (4)

This SEVERELY limits the usefulness as a test @ high levels of refinement for razors using the fulcrum. Hopefully testing without the fulcrum confirms that it allows more refinement with less edge damage. Also planning to switch back to Fishing Line vs this media once I do some more comparison testing.



Ok, testing one razor with fulcrum + media = 36, 33, 28
Without fulcrum = 17, 8, 12
Fishing line without fulcrum = 16, 23, 19

I hope you're continuing a conversation with Edge On Up and finding out how they can help here.

 

[naughtilus]

It would be interesting to figure out where the "shave ready" sharpness point begins for SR. Ball park estimate at least.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

It would be interesting to figure out where the "shave ready" sharpness point begins for SR. Ball park estimate at least.

I suspect it is a lot less sharp (measured) than we'd like to think.

From the little that's already been posted on this thread, and from what I've heard and read on the forum, and from emails I've received from Edge On Up, I know that some gentlemen are capable of honing straight razors to the point where they're sharper than manufactured DE razor blades, including Feather DE blades.

I also know that some of the edges I've honed have shaved me well enough, but weren't very sharp compared with a DE blade. This goes back to the time when I was buying "shave ready" razors and finding the edges I honed myself to be quite clearly sharper, and was early in my honing days.

I'm much better as a honer now, but it's become clear to me I've got a ways to go in terms of sharpening a blade with a stone to the sharpness of a Feather DE blade.

My Kukri ins about as sharp (measured about as sharp) as a new Polsilver (68), but I know I can shave with a Polsilver and get good shaves for a very long time without needing a new blade.

Many gentlemen love the coticule edge. I'm one of them. The edge might not even seem sharp to the touch, yet it shaves great. How sharp (measured) are those edges?

I'm interested in the perfect edge - super sharp + super comfortable - and don't know if an edge can be too sharp to be comfortable? Is there a tradeoff place or what?

But, yes, I agree with you. It's going to be interesting. There will also be some YMMV.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[SliceOfLife]

Well so far the sharpest edge I’ve got is a coticule according to this thing. To be fair it’s an absolutely insane coticule that is as hard and smooth as glass... my guess is a standard coticule edge will put up a 60-70 and that’s about what I’d consider a starting point for shave ready.

Haven’t emailed them in a day. I’m hoping to have a lot more info collected here by Monday so I can give them more useful information.


As it stands, I’m sorry to say this really isn’t looking like a good option for quantifying straight razors performance. Stone to strop honing on thin ground razors using high grit hones allows it to damage the edge. I think comparing straight razors at the top end of performance will require a 0.1g accuracy, probably a guide for the razor, and a softer media. Of course that’s what the industrial testers that cost thousands of dollars have, so I expect it’d be a bit more expensive. My workaround is going to be just using it with 17degree and thicker razors, as they seem to survive it, but I’ll definitely be checking the first few edges to confirm.

However if you like heavier grind razors, I suspect this will work great for you, just keep a scope ready to check for microchips on the first few tests.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Wow, low grit is even worse than high grit. Trying to push a 1k edge through this thing puts nasty chips in it.

This really must have never been tested with anything under a 20 degree angle. It just butchers these blades.


And even the 18* blades are starting to show chips after multiple tests.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Jim, what mag is your scope?

A reading of 292, I would dare say 100% unquestionably damaged the edge. You should check again. I'm getting <300 readings off 1k stones and the edges are getting crushed (and still getting that reading). A sharpened razor will not read that high unless something is seriously wrong.

 

[bluesman 7]

I'm not sure that the manufacturer ever claimed that the tests were non destructive. I did notice that in all the DE tests that I saw, the tester went to lengths to note which side of the blade he was testing. This makes me think that a second test in the same spot would yield a higher number.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Yeah, kind of important to me that the tests are nondestructive. I've sent a summary of my findings to the manufacturer and I've asked Sharpening Supplies if I can return it. We're full circle... there's workarounds, exceptions, and precautions... but in the end... this thing chips straight razors.

The VERY rare times it doesn't damage an edge, either because of a stars aligning level of perfection in the cut or a weak point in the media, I'm getting readings in the single digits... but that happens less than 10% of attempts... a tool that destroys my edge to where I have to spend 5 minutes at 1k 90% of the time is not a tool that is suitable for my purpose.


I'm doing one more test to just rule out a final variable... so fingers crossed, but otherwise... this thing is useless for me.

 

[bluesman 7]

It may be interesting to see if damage to DE blades can be seen under magnification.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Jim, what mag is your scope?

A reading of 292, I would dare say 100% unquestionably damaged the edge. You should check again. I'm getting <300 readings off 1k stones and the edges are getting crushed (and still getting that reading). A sharpened razor will not read that high unless something is seriously wrong.

I have several of the fairly cheap electronic or USB or whatever they're called modern scopes and dislike most of them because they're a huge pain so...

I mostly use this one. It's simple to use. Easy as pie. The magnification is enough for my purposes I think, but I could be wrong (and maybe that's what you're saying).

Link to a vendor (not the vendor I used). This microscope is very inexpensive. Very handy. Very small. Not electronic.

I think it would be useful to share this conversation with the Edge On Up people (and I believe you agree). From the emails I've received from them they're very clearly saying they've seen the problems you're reporting before, and that they understand the issue, and that it's indicative of something (exactly what I'm not sure I understand).

In any case, we both want sharp, comfortable, and undamaged edges. I want, too, for this device to be useful and reliable and safe for my edges, but what I want is not always possible.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Yeah, kind of important to me that the tests are nondestructive. I've sent a summary of my findings to the manufacturer and I've asked Sharpening Supplies if I can return it. We're full circle... there's workarounds, exceptions, and precautions... but in the end... this thing chips straight razors.

The VERY rare times it doesn't damage an edge, either because of a stars aligning level of perfection in the cut or a weak point in the media, I'm getting readings in the single digits... but that happens less than 10% of attempts... a tool that destroys my edge to where I have to spend 5 minutes at 1k 90% of the time is not a tool that is suitable for my purpose.


I'm doing one more test to just rule out a final variable... so fingers crossed, but otherwise... this thing is useless for me.

I know you'll let me know if SS will accept a return.

I really want this to work, but if it doesn't...

The OP (on the other thread) who introduced us all to this device doesn't seem to have reported any problems, right?

 

[SliceOfLife]

Sent them one more email of a test I just did. Fully synthetic whetstone progression. Start to finish. 200 grit to 13000 grit. No DMT, No naturals, No variables. 15* Razor. Very average steel. Not hard or soft. This is as default/average/blah as I can make this test.

Off stones, Off Strops, after test... all at 400x optical mag.

Uploading the video of me doing the test. You can even hear the edge crap out during it. Pretty depressing sound.

 

[SliceOfLife]

It may be interesting to see if damage to DE blades can be seen under magnification.

The thing is DE blades are all compound bevel these days. Most are 23* and up. They're designed to work in cheap boxcutters and things which require MUCH sturdier blades than shaving. Definitely they could be damaged, and probably are... but it's going to be a lot less noticeable than on a 13* straight razor. If I get a chance to pick one up, I'll try it, but I'm hoping I can return this thing... so might not get the chance if I get my wish.

It's a shame, I really wanted it to work, but it's clear they designed it around much much heartier blades than we're used to (I think I mentioned earlier that the chart for sharpness has 0-100 as a single step... clearly straight razors were not at all considered in the design)... and I'd be surprised if anyone is able to use this with a straight without chipping their razors... now if the razor isn't <14* and soft, the chip won't be eye-visible... maybe not even visible until you're over 100x... but these chips I'm getting on very average razors are upwards of 200microns across and maybe 20+ deep... that's DEFINITELY enough to be a problem... I'm going to 200-1k stones for several minutes to clean those up.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Dollar store SE razor blades:

Pictures are an edge where it was tested one time and untested area of edge.

I have no real way to measure the angles here, but usually these are a 2-3 level compound bevel ending in low-mid 20's.


Ran multiple tests and these do hold up a lot better than Straights, but boy are they dull. 100-350g results. And they still do show damage to the edge from the test. The edge is getting pushed in by the media. On a 20+ degree grind like these, it shows as a deflecting of the edge towards or away from the scope... on thinner grinds like most straights, that deflecting goes much deeper into the bevel before the steel is thick enough to stop it and shows as a big chip.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I guess the good thing is this made me sort all my razors into ones I won't risk chipping and ones I will... so now I can thin out my collection once I repair all the damage I've done.

 

[SliceOfLife]

OK so I popped out and bought a proper DE blade. It tests fairly well on this, about 25-40g. Also shows very little signs of damage. You might not even notice it but there’s a tiny bit of edge damage in this picture. Still I can see why no one would discover that in previous testing. It kind of makes me suspect that they never really tested this product with straight razors or anything under a 25° angle inclusive. I think they just assumed it would work and wouldn’t damage the blade. It looks like this DE blade Is right at the cut off for how durable an edge needs to be to use this device. Sadly I don’t think many straight razors that Aren’t being abrasive stropped Or heavily taped are going to Be as sturdy as a DE that’s probably in the 25° inclusive range. As I mentioned even that crazy hard 20° herder was showing chipping upon close inspection after a few tests. And this is not insignificant chipping, even though it needs quite a bit of magnification to see, we’re talking about chipping you take to a beveling stone to remove, This stuff is very likely cause weepers in short order if you kept using the razor to shave.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

It was not a good afternoon of honing, not by a long shot, but I got in a good bit of Edge on Up practice, and didn't damage my edge.

Link to what I did this afternoon. My numbers. My failures.

 

[FlScott]

I've done some limited testing today. I have not experienced a chip but I've only tested three razors:

1. J.A. Henckels 81 Emperor
2. Thomas Mgf Co (this razor had a prior chip blade that I restored)
3. Dovo Diamant

I'm still working on a consistent technique for pushing down. I've settled for resting my forearms on the edge of the table. I've used the fulcrum and I've freehanded the tests. Again, I'm trying to get consistent pressure. For me this is a huge variable in my test results.

I did notice that every part of the blade yields a different result (similar to Jim's).

I refreshed the J.A. Henckel today using a Norton 8000 then an ILR. 10 laps on linen between hones. Then 10 laps linen and strop on an Heirloom #2 Roughout Heavy Draw Strop before the first test.

Here are some test results from the J.A. Henckels. I tried to take the media test from the same spot, the middle of the blade:

Pic #1: Test results with no additional stropping.

Test # 2: I did 6 heavy laps on a tightly pulled strop. Heavy meaning with a constant pressure and torqueing my wrist.

Test result #3: I went back to the strop and did 20 on linen then 100 normal laps.

It shaved smooth.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Do you have anything thin ground or any higher levels of refinement you can test? Your results are right around where I was getting "pass" results on my sturdier razors, that I thought were all good, but were creating (much smaller) microchips like in these pictures. These would be hard to see even at 100x and might not be noticeable immediately in a shave, but they would add up... and as you saw from my post, I didn't even think this was happening until by coincidence I hit the exact same spot twice and my result jumped from <30 four times in a row into the triple digits. What I'm seeing on my <13degree razors is not something there would be any question about. The edge fails every/almost every time, giving triple digit readings and leaving (often eye-visible) chips. Between 13 and 16 seems to depend on the razor (some get the pass but with small chips results, some fail like the thinner ones). Above that it's mostly pass but with small chips with the occasional soft razor that has the more spectacular failure.

 

[FlScott]

I haven't been happy with the last two microscopes that I've purchased, I've returned both. I'm still hunting of a dependable one. That being said I do have a couple loupes (10, 20, 30 X). I'm not getting the fine details that SliceofLife is obtaining under his microscope.

If anyone has any suggestions on a quality microscope please post the make and model.

Cheers

Scott