Notes From The Edge

[Esox]

Maybe I'm thinking about this the wrong way but isnt honing on a stone or similar meant to set the edge and the strop meant to maintain that edge once created?

A beveled edge shouldnt need to be reset until its worn down enough through stropping to change the bevel angle, or am I in the knife blade mindset and not the SR mindset on this?

 

[Seveneighth]

My understanding is as follows:

The bevel is set and this is the cutting edge. You create this by scratching off metal. To make this practical a certain grit size is used by this results in a ridge of teeth rather than a perfect apex.

The rest of the Sharpening process is to scratch into these teeth to make them smaller and more refined until you get to a degree of fine-ness that the particular steel can withstand.

You need to refine your abrasive medium more and more to create fiber and fiber scratches progressively.

A refined abrasive is an abrasive paste. Which works well on a strop. The only issue being that the edge trailing laps can result in a slight rounding of the bevel (not necessarily true with diamonds in balsa) at some point therefore you need a stone to smooth out any rounding.

Any use of such a fine edge will distort it. Stropping will straighten out a distorted edge but does not remove steel to resharpen the apex. After a while the apex will be blunted. At that point you need an abrasive (typically a pirate at first)

You are therefore right about the bevel reset but the use of a higher grit stone will also correct any rounding and bluntness.

Bevel set, apex sharp?
Strop to straighten apex

Bevel set, apex good but starting to dull?
Paste will refine apex

Bevel set, apex good, starting to dull and beginning to round?
Finishing stone

Chips in the edge?
Remove chips and reset bevel.

That's my understanding. Happy to be corrected.

Yes I have been honing too much. This has been down to experimentation.

I have razors that I never hone beyond a light refresh with a finishing stone occasionally. Some that haven't needed to see a stone in a year but have been maintained with stepping. I just don't talk about those so much.

 

[Seveneighth]

Maybe I'm thinking about this the wrong way but isnt honing on a stone or similar meant to set the edge and the strop meant to maintain that edge once created?

A beveled edge shouldnt need to be reset until its worn down enough through stropping to change the bevel angle, or am I in the knife blade mindset and not the SR mindset on this?

Or in other words:

Spoiler

yes

Exactly what you said

 

[Esox]

Set the edge then polish the edge. Its the same principle no matter the blade I guess, but with a SR you're sort of tailoring the edge to you and how you shave so everyones own process will be different.

I find this all of very interesting, but at the same time reinforcing my thoughts on why not to start into it all lol.

It would take many years to wear a blade down to the point of needing a replacement so I guess its really a moot point whether or not to hone as often as one likes.

Finding ones preferred angle and finishing process is the time consuming part.

Now I'm curious about that. Have you, Jim or anyone else, found a preferred angle and finishing process?

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

If you decide on an SS I would recommend the Bökers instead of the Dovos. They aren't as pretty but they shave so nicely.

Thank you.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Set the edge then polish the edge. Its the same principle no matter the blade I guess, but with a SR you're sort of tailoring the edge to you and how you shave so everyones own process will be different.

I find this all of very interesting, but at the same time reinforcing my thoughts on why not to start into it all lol.

It would take many years to wear a blade down to the point of needing a replacement so I guess its really a moot point whether or not to hone as often as one likes.

Finding ones preferred angle and finishing process is the time consuming part.

Now I'm curious about that. Have you, Jim or anyone else, found a preferred angle and finishing process?

I'm not sure what a preferred angle is, Mike.

My understanding is the angle is determined by the spine's relationship to the edge and thus built in, unless, of course, you use tape (which I don't).

Seems to me it's more about finding (creating) edges which are both sharp (enough) and comfortable. In my view they can't be too sharp (but I could be wrong) and comfort is king as long as they shave well. Obviously the most comfortable edge would be dull so there's a balance point in the process. The other factor in the balance point is the edge has to hold up and not just fall apart with the first shave.

I'm way too new to this to have found a finishing process which I know I should settle on, but even if I were to what would be the fun in that? To a degree, this is a hobby and figuring out the various stones and tools (strops, pastes, etc.) is part of the intrigue and fun.

Then too there're the matters of wonky blades to contend with and also the differing steels and grinds of the various razors produced in China, Sheffield, Germany, Sweden, Spain, France, and the States. Maybe elsewhere. At any rate, the steels and razors and grinds may or may not mesh with all the stones but may or may not prefer certain stones.

Or, just get a coticule, some pastes, and some leather and linen!

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Somerled]

Or, just get a coticule, some pastes, and some leather and linen!

Happy shaves,

Jim

That would be a good way to start.
Much better than buying a lot of synthetic stones.

 

[Seveneighth]

I'm not sure what a preferred angle is, Mike.

My understanding is the angle is determined by the spine's relationship to the edge and thus built in, unless, of course, you use tape (which I don't).

Seems to me it's more about finding (creating) edges which are both sharp (enough) and comfortable. In my view they can't be too sharp (but I could be wrong) and comfort is king as long as they shave well. Obviously the most comfortable edge would be dull so there's a balance point in the process. The other factor in the balance point is the edge has to hold up and not just fall apart with the first shave.

I'm way too new to this to have found a finishing process which I know I should settle on, but even if I were to what would be the fun in that? To a degree, this is a hobby and figuring out the various stones and tools (strops, pastes, etc.) is part of the intrigue and fun.

Then too there're the matters of wonky blades to contend with and also the differing steels and grinds of the various razors produced in China, Sheffield, Germany, Sweden, Spain, France, and the States. Maybe elsewhere. At any rate, the steels and razors and grinds may or may not mesh with all the stones but may or may not prefer certain stones.

Or, just get a coticule, some pastes, and some leather and linen!

Happy shaves,

Jim

Agree about the angle and everything else Jim said.

@Esox, The tailoring of the finish for me is I think the level of refinement of the edge and *I think* the nature of the scratches into the bevel.

What I mean by the nature of the scratches is based on all the magnification pictures posted about the different stones / abrasives. The finer and sharper an abrasive the smoother and more polished the edge.

Take a diamond paste, with a fine micron diamond particle -e.g. going down to 0.3 /0.1 micron. This will get the edge very refined and very sharp. In theory this is the perfect edge scenario. There are two issues with a very refined edge, if the steel is softer and more brittle the edge may not hold and deteriorate very quickly - e.g. with a vintage Sheffield. Probably not an issue if you are stepping with diamond paste every day because you are refining any damage.

Also diamond particles are very angular and sharp and leave scratches with sharp grooves. This is even more of a problem if you stop at a lower grit rating. I find very hard steels can feel quite abrasive when sharpened with some types of abrasive. The classic for me is really hard Swedish steel, which when sharpened with synthetic stones or diamond paste REALLY really irritates my skin.

At the other end of the scale is a coticule. The cutting medium in a coticule are the garnets embedded in it. The amount and size of these garnets varies from coticule to coticule, different coticule layers tend to have similar sized and amount of garnets. Garnets are rounder than synthetic particles or diamonds. This makes them slower to cut, which is frustrating, but it does mean they polish and round out the edges or the scratches being left.

You can see this in magnified pictures of edges sharpened with coticules from the layer called La Nouvelle Veine. This layer seems to contain quite large garnets. Under magnification the scratches are pronounced but the polish of the bevel (seen as a darkening when lit) is very high. I believe this leaves something resembling a sharp serated edge.

The advantage with this is that the scratches' edges are softened and the edge itself is more stable. It isn't as sharp as a low micron highly polished edge but it is sharp enough and more comfortable with certain steels.

Therefore I like:

Diamond paste with a stainless steel (rough amount of toughness to take a refined edge without being too abrasive)
Coticule with Swedish Steel (softens the abrasive nature)
Coticule with Solingen - I want to experiment with a coticule prior to another finisher - to experient with an ark or a Yellow Lake.
Sheffield with something like a Charnley Forest - sharp but not too sharp to leave a brittle edge.

However, like Jim, I am relatively new to all this and am perfectly prepared to have my mind changed on all of this.

As @Somerled says, I think it is perfectly possible to start simple and just experiment a bit with a couple of Razors and stones if you already have an interest in steel and sharpening. It doesn't have to be a rabbit hole.

 

[Seveneighth]

The Joseph Rogers was much improved with the carpet bomb approach. And started to feel like a vintage Sheffield. I do not believe it is the result of any single step but the combination.

The La Petite Blanche coticule is my fastest and sets a good bevel. But it does not finish well because it is so fast.
Switching to another coticule allows the progression to work better. A slower larger crystal coti seems to build on the bevel better.
The hardest part with coticules is controlling the dilution. You have to keep the slurry in a consistent state and not let it dry out whilst working through the dilution stage. It's always tempting to dilute and move on but you can't do this too soon. Balancing slurry consistency whilst judging the dilution is tricky.
Stropping just before moving to plain water helps as does switching to a different stone.
The pasted strops iron out any imperfections from the previous stage.
Finishing on oil seems to push the grit rating way above their usual.

 

[Esox]

My understanding is the angle is determined by the spine's relationship to the edge and thus built in, unless, of course, you use tape (which I don't).

That makes perfect sense. The thickness of the spine dictating the angle of the edge unless a steeper angle is wanted then the tape is used to create it. I've never used anything to help me set an edge angle, I've always just done it by hand holding the blade where I wanted it against the stone to get my desired angle.

You dont use tape so you work with the shallowest possible angle you can have on your razors. Does the spine thickness vary much between your razors and if so, do you notice a difference between them based on that and the different angles between them?

Agree about the angle and everything else Jim said.

@Esox, The tailoring of the finish for me is I think the level of refinement of the edge and *I think* the nature of the scratches into the bevel.

What I mean by the nature of the scratches is based on all the magnification pictures posted about the different stones / abrasives. The finer and sharper an abrasive the smoother and more polished the edge.

Take a diamond paste, with a fine micron diamond particle -e.g. going down to 0.3 /0.1 micron. This will get the edge very refined and very sharp. In theory this is the perfect edge scenario. There are two issues with a very refined edge, if the steel is softer and more brittle the edge may not hold and deteriorate very quickly - e.g. with a vintage Sheffield. Probably not an issue if you are stepping with diamond paste every day because you are refining any damage.

Also diamond particles are very angular and sharp and leave scratches with sharp grooves. This is even more of a problem if you stop at a lower grit rating. I find very hard steels can feel quite abrasive when sharpened with some types of abrasive. The classic for me is really hard Swedish steel, which when sharpened with synthetic stones or diamond paste REALLY really irritates my skin.

At the other end of the scale is a coticule. The cutting medium in a coticule are the garnets embedded in it. The amount and size of these garnets varies from coticule to coticule, different coticule layers tend to have similar sized and amount of garnets. Garnets are rounder than synthetic particles or diamonds. This makes them slower to cut, which is frustrating, but it does mean they polish and round out the edges or the scratches being left.

You can see this in magnified pictures of edges sharpened with coticules from the layer called La Nouvelle Veine. This layer seems to contain quite large garnets. Under magnification the scratches are pronounced but the polish of the bevel (seen as a darkening when lit) is very high. I believe this leaves something resembling a sharp serated edge.

The advantage with this is that the scratches' edges are softened and the edge itself is more stable. It isn't as sharp as a low micron highly polished edge but it is sharp enough and more comfortable with certain steels.

Therefore I like:

Diamond paste with a stainless steel (rough amount of toughness to take a refined edge without being too abrasive)
Coticule with Swedish Steel (softens the abrasive nature)
Coticule with Solingen - I want to experiment with a coticule prior to another finisher - to experient with an ark or a Yellow Lake.
Sheffield with something like a Charnley Forest - sharp but not too sharp to leave a brittle edge.

However, like Jim, I am relatively new to all this and am perfectly prepared to have my mind changed on all of this.

As @Somerled says, I think it is perfectly possible to start simple and just experiment a bit with a couple of Razors and stones if you already have an interest in steel and sharpening. It doesn't have to be a rabbit hole.

This is good information thanks.

Diamond stones, steels and ceramic stones all cut faster than natural stones for me doing my knives. Your breakdown of their respective attributes I believe is accurate. I've also noticed on my knives that a natural stone edge lasts longer, I believe because its a smoother edge.

This isnt something I have any desire in doing but like I said, I find the process interesting and I enjoy learning and understanding.

You seem to be pretty well on your way to understanding what you like and why.

 

[Seveneighth]

That makes perfect sense. The thickness of the spine dictating the angle of the edge unless a steeper angle is wanted then the tape is used to create it. I've never used anything to help me set an edge angle, I've always just done it by hand holding the blade where I wanted it against the stone to get my desired angle.

You dont use tape so you work with the shallowest possible angle you can have on your razors. Does the spine thickness vary much between your razors and if so, do you notice a difference between them based on that and the different angles between them?




This is good information thanks.

Diamond stones, steels and ceramic stones all cut faster than natural stones for me doing my knives. Your breakdown of their respective attributes I believe is accurate. I've also noticed on my knives that a natural stone edge lasts longer, I believe because its a smoother edge.

This isnt something I have any desire in doing but like I said, I find the process interesting and I enjoy learning and understanding.

You seem to be pretty well on your way to understanding what you like and why.

I have two large coticules that are too big and problematic for me to use with razors. I use them now for sharpening knives. They seem to work well enough. I am free-handing the angle. I used to use guides but not anymore. Not the best edges but not the worst.

 

[Esox]

I have two large coticules that are too big and problematic for me to use with razors. I use them now for sharpening knives. They seem to work well enough. I am free-handing the angle. I used to use guides but not anymore. Not the best edges but not the worst.

I do pretty good freehand but depending on the handle I can have one side shallower than the other. I do better drawing towards myself than pushing away and I have a habit of rolling the point when pushing away because my stroke starts at the tip.

None of that would be acceptable with a SR edge.

 

[Seveneighth]

I do pretty good freehand but depending on the handle I can have one side shallower than the other. I do better drawing towards myself than pushing away and I have a habit of rolling the point when pushing away because my stroke starts at the tip.

None of that would be acceptable with a SR edge.

Maybe not, but when honing a straight razor with good geometry you don't have to worry too much because the spine, lying directly on the stone, dictates the angle.

This goes wrong when the geometry is bad (e.g. a warped blade). Then you have to adjust the amount of pressure on the edge to compensate or hone the razor until the spine is flat.

When sharpening on a coticule I find that they cut metal best with a back and forth movement. I have adjusted my knife sharpening on those two coticules accordingly. I use a diagonal back and forth movement and just flip the blade. This has helped keep my bevel symmetrical somewhat.

 

[Somerled]

I do pretty good freehand but depending on the handle I can have one side shallower than the other. I do better drawing towards myself than pushing away and I have a habit of rolling the point when pushing away because my stroke starts at the tip.

None of that would be acceptable with a SR edge.

Mike, have you watched any video's on razor honing?
You obviously know what your doing with knives.
So, getting yourself a cheapo straight to play with and hone should be well within your skillset.

Then you may find something that actually beats your Gem for closeness and comfort

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Mike, have you watched any video's on razor honing?
You obviously know what your doing with knives.
So, getting yourself a cheapo straight to play with and hone should be well within your skillset.

Then you may find something that actually beats your Gem for closeness and comfort

 

[Esox]

Maybe not, but when honing a straight razor with good geometry you don't have to worry too much because the spine, lying directly on the stone, dictates the angle.

I'd be more worried about wear or damage too the spine. On something like this Ed Brice I would be severely depressed if I messed it up.

Mike, have you watched any video's on razor honing?
You obviously know what your doing with knives.
So, getting yourself a cheapo straight to play with and hone should be well within your skillset.

Then you may find something that actually beats your Gem for closeness and comfort

I've watched a few here and there Doug. Knife sharpening is something I use to do out of necessity. I relied on my knives a great deal and have been sharpening them since my father gave me my first one when I was very young, a Puma Earl that I still have. Sharpening knives for over 40 years, the novelty of it is long gone lol. I only sharpen knives now when they become so dull they become dangerous and have even bought new ones because I didnt want to sharpen one again lol.

I totally understand the Zen like zone one gets into when working an edge. I also know I dont have the stones I'd need to get a straight where I'd want and need it to be. My nephew was thinking about a 16k stone. I think thats a good idea. The jump from what I have now, 4 or 6k to 16k is more like a giant leap and I'd need stones to get me there. Not to mention the desire to actually do it.

I dont like the idea of buying a new Ed Brice every time I want a sharp razor lol.

Funny you mention comfort. Jim has said his SR shaves have been his most comfortable. My nephew says the same. I've always intuitively known that a straight will give the best shave one can have. If only I had taken the time to start with them 30 years ago when my brother in law did while that desire for working on a stone was still strong.

 

[Seveneighth]

You can tape the spine with electrical tape to protect it. I think Ed Brice uses tape when he sets his bevels.

The secret to preserving the spine as much as possible for me is:

1) use natural stones - not so abrasive - I am less likely to make mistakes on the spine
2) rotational torque away from the spine onto the edge

When I started I chewed through tape. Now I rarely use it but when I do, I don't really create any wear on it.

 

[Seveneighth]

Today's shave :

Mitchell's again
Dovo Masters
One of those titchy omegas

I had intended to DE shave, but had no time. 2 passes with a straight is quicker for me than a DE shave.

A good DFS/ BBS in most places.

 

[Seveneighth]

After two years without problems suddenly out of the blue my psoriasis is back, mainly on my arms, but I've seen this movie before: the face will surely follow. I have no idea why either. There have been no changes in environment or diet. That doesn't seem to matter though. I can be good with products or food for months or years and then suddenly start violently reacting to them. The hunt is to track down the culprit.

I am taking things cautiously. This morning I cut right back on my shaving routine. I used a synthetic brush with Truefitt and Hill sensitive cream, and made a single WTG pass with a Feather ASD2 loaded with a Feather blade. This combination is my most comfortable, mildest shave. The ASD2 is the most forgiving razor for me, though not necessarily the mildest. When loaded with a Feather blade I am able to shave just efficiently enough WTG to remove hair without any skin impact.

Shaving is hit or miss under these circumstances. It's a play off between minimal shaving vs. closest shave possible. On one hand, a little trauma to the skin as possible is welcome. On the other, a very close 3 or 4 pass shave prevents the issues of stubble irritation and exfoliates the skin well.

 

[Clay S]

After two years without problems suddenly out of the blue my psoriasis is back, mainly on my arms, but I've seen this movie before: the face will surely follow. I have no idea why either. There have been no changes in environment or diet. That doesn't seem to matter though. I can be good with products or food for months or years and then suddenly start violently reacting to them. The hunt is to track down the culprit.

I am taking things cautiously. This morning I cut right back on my shaving routine. I used a synthetic brush with Truefitt and Hill sensitive cream, and made a single WTG pass with a Feather ASD2 loaded with a Feather blade. This combination is my most comfortable, mildest shave. The ASD2 is the most forgiving razor for me, though not necessarily the mildest. When loaded with a Feather blade I am able to shave just efficiently enough WTG to remove hair without any skin impact.

Shaving is hit or miss under these circumstances. It's a play off between minimal shaving vs. closest shave possible. On one hand, a little trauma to the skin as possible is welcome. On the other, a very close 3 or 4 pass shave prevents the issues of stubble irritation and exfoliates the skin well.

Hopefully you track it down in short order!