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Vocabulary rant

Could care less when they should be saying could not care less.

I hope folks who are saying the former are saying it "ironically"

I don't think I've never heard "I could care less" used ironically to imply that the speaker could not care less. I am tempted to suggest that most who say "I could care less" are incapable of detecting irony, to say nothing of employing it, but that would make me a word snob, so I shall say no such thing.
 
Local dialect and colloquialisms play havoc with vocabulary. As long as you understand where someone is from, their vocabulary makes sense. Where I live, the majority culture has no gender-specific pronouns in their base language. So, even though someone does not speak that language, they have grown up in a culture where he and she are used randomly for a single person. I grew up in the culture so don't notice it. It drives others up the wall.

That darned L is still silent no matter where you are.
 
Interesting question, does one have to be capable of detecting irony or be capable of consciously employing irony in order to actually speak ironically? :) Or, perhaps better, if I say something a particular way just because I want to be annoying, is that being ironic?

<Where I live, the majority culture has no gender-specific pronouns in their base language. So, even though someone does not speak that language, they have grown up in a culture where he and she are used randomly for a single person. I grew up in the culture so don't notice it. >

Wow, nateaaron, you sure have my attention now. When I click on your icon to the left of your posting it tells me you are from Arizona. And your written English seems as good as anyone else's around here. And, as far as I can tell, Spanish is more obsessed with gender-specific pronouns than English is, going so far as to assign to every noun a gender, and woe be to those who do not know what gender a particular noun is. So the imagination runs wild as to what culture you are referencing. Native American perhaps? Some language within the Uto-Aztecan group of languages? Basque? Very cool, though. When one ponders it, why do we need to know the gender of a person to reference that person about that person? Why is that considered such crucial information as to be so hard-wired into the language for proper usage?
 
Words of nuance, words of skill
And words of romance are a thrill
Words are stupid, words are fun
Words can put you on the run

Mots pressé, Mots sensé
Mots qui disent la verité
Mots maudits, mots mentis
Mots qui manquent le fruit d'esprit
 

Doc4

Stumpy in cold weather
Staff member
I don't think I've never heard "I could care less" used ironically to imply that the speaker could not care less.

Interesting question, does one have to be capable of detecting irony or be capable of consciously employing irony in order to actually speak ironically? :) Or, perhaps better, if I say something a particular way just because I want to be annoying, is that being ironic?

My suspicion is that the phrase is not typically used for purposes of irony, but simply straight-ahead "I don't care at all". It's one of those times when a particular phrase has a particular meaning regardless of the actual literal meaning if you go word by word.

"At the end of the day" has a particular meaning we all understand, and all understand to not be specifically referring to what happens at sundown or at 11.58pm. And yes, people who overuse the phrase are annoying but ... at the end of the day we still understand their meaning. And yes, they could(n't) care less that we are annoyed by their verbal tick.
 
I would say that "at the end of the day" is more a metaphor, albeit hackneyed.

Based on a survey of the web, it appears that even when trying to apply the conventional defintion(s) of the word, there is lots of disagreement over what is ironic. See isitironic.com where people vote in whether particular things are or are not ironic.

Whether or not "I could care less is ironic" is particularly in dispute. See could care less | Common Errors in English Usage and More | Washington State University, which has some faulty reasoning, to me.

I suppose we are talking about two different definitions of ironic, too. There is the "happening in the opposite way to what is expected, and typically causing wry amusement because of this." Thus, in the iconic song, rain on one's wedding day, is not ironic, it is simply unfortunate. If call you on the phone at exactly the time you are calling me, it is coincidence, not irony, the thinking goes. Although it seems to me addtional information could show that this was ironic. For instance, if I was placing the call because it had been a long time, and I thought if I did not you would never call, or something like that. But mostly it seems coincidental. I suppose the song's a free ride when you have already paid seems ironic.

But then there is the ironic statement, which seems to me different. "using words that suggest the opposite of what you intend, usually in order to be humorous." (Sorry about the red font!) Seems pretty close to sarcasm to me. Based on what I find on the net, whether or not "I could care less" is ironic is particularly in dispute. See could care less | Common Errors in English Usage and More | Washington State University, which has some faulty reasoning, to me. There is it is opined
"'I could care less' isn’t used to imply its opposite: that you care more. Thus it is not ironic." Why would opposite be I care more? Why isn't the opposite that "I could not care less"? I think what doc4 is saying is that the "in order to be humorous" is missing. Fair enough, depending on the speaker.
 
I would say that "at the end of the day" is more a metaphor, albeit hackneyed.

Based on a survey of the web, it appears that even when trying to apply the conventional defintion(s) of the word, there is lots of disagreement over what is ironic. See isitironic.com where people vote in whether particular things are or are not ironic.

Whether or not "I could care less is ironic" is particularly in dispute. See could care less | Common Errors in English Usage and More | Washington State University, which has some faulty reasoning, to me.

I suppose we are talking about two different definitions of ironic, too. There is the "happening in the opposite way to what is expected, and typically causing wry amusement because of this." Thus, in the iconic song, rain on one's wedding day, is not ironic, it is simply unfortunate. If call you on the phone at exactly the time you are calling me, it is coincidence, not irony, the thinking goes. Although it seems to me addtional information could show that this was ironic. For instance, if I was placing the call because it had been a long time, and I thought if I did not you would never call, or something like that. But mostly it seems coincidental. I suppose the song's a free ride when you have already paid seems ironic.

But then there is the ironic statement, which seems to me different. "using words that suggest the opposite of what you intend, usually in order to be humorous." (Sorry about the red font!) Seems pretty close to sarcasm to me. Based on what I find on the net, whether or not "I could care less" is ironic is particularly in dispute. See could care less | Common Errors in English Usage and More | Washington State University, which has some faulty reasoning, to me. There is it is opined
"'I could care less' isn’t used to imply its opposite: that you care more. Thus it is not ironic." Why would opposite be I care more? Why isn't the opposite that "I could not care less"? I think what doc4 is saying is that the "in order to be humorous" is missing. Fair enough, depending on the speaker.
I always was confused by that. I could care less. That never made sense to me. Glad you all are finally bring this to the surface.
 
I would say that "at the end of the day" is more a metaphor, albeit hackneyed.

Based on a survey of the web, it appears that even when trying to apply the conventional defintion(s) of the word, there is lots of disagreement over what is ironic. See isitironic.com where people vote in whether particular things are or are not ironic.

Whether or not "I could care less is ironic" is particularly in dispute. See could care less | Common Errors in English Usage and More | Washington State University, which has some faulty reasoning, to me.

I suppose we are talking about two different definitions of ironic, too. There is the "happening in the opposite way to what is expected, and typically causing wry amusement because of this." Thus, in the iconic song, rain on one's wedding day, is not ironic, it is simply unfortunate. If call you on the phone at exactly the time you are calling me, it is coincidence, not irony, the thinking goes. Although it seems to me addtional information could show that this was ironic. For instance, if I was placing the call because it had been a long time, and I thought if I did not you would never call, or something like that. But mostly it seems coincidental. I suppose the song's a free ride when you have already paid seems ironic.

But then there is the ironic statement, which seems to me different. "using words that suggest the opposite of what you intend, usually in order to be humorous." (Sorry about the red font!) Seems pretty close to sarcasm to me. Based on what I find on the net, whether or not "I could care less" is ironic is particularly in dispute. See could care less | Common Errors in English Usage and More | Washington State University, which has some faulty reasoning, to me. There is it is opined
"'I could care less' isn’t used to imply its opposite: that you care more. Thus it is not ironic." Why would opposite be I care more? Why isn't the opposite that "I could not care less"? I think what doc4 is saying is that the "in order to be humorous" is missing. Fair enough, depending on the speaker.

Irony is like the old story of how a man's servant bumped into Death at a bazaar, took a fast horse, and rode to another town. The servant's master confronted Death about frightening his servant.

"He was no more surprised than I," said Death. "I have an appointment with him elsewhere."

Pratchett used a very similar theme to humorous effect. A wizard, to avoid Death, built a special box to protect him, and enclosed himself inside it just before the expected hour. As he lay in the box, he realized he'd forgotten to make air holes. At that moment Death, who is right beside him, comments on the issue.

In a different vein, is the classic ironic statement from Dr. Strangelove: "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!" So is Shelly's poem Ozymandias, which isn't humorous at all.

Irony would then seem to be an action that brings about the opposite intent, or a statement of the opposite that highlights absurdity of the situation. "I could care less" isn't ironic, even though it states the opposite from the intended "I couldn't care less." It's contradictory, like a near fight I once witnessed where one person said "You ain't @#$%," and the other person laughed and said "I hope not."
 
I think irony is strikingly hard to define, which also indicates to me that the concept is kind of vague.

<So is Shelly's poem Ozymandias, which isn't humorous at all.>

I think another potential nuance of irony--any irony about irony if you will :)--is that a situation can easily be ironic with no humor attached to it. But for a statement to be ironic arguably there has to be humor to it. That is, why would I say the opposite of what I mean, while being completely serious.

I find myself referencing Ozymandias a lot these days! Also, while I understand what you mean, I am not sure Shelly was not, in part, having a laugh at Ozymandias and human pride in general. That poem has a lesson for us all!
 

Doc4

Stumpy in cold weather
Staff member
I would say that "at the end of the day" is more a metaphor, albeit hackneyed.

Perhaps a better example would be the oft-used double negative in a context that clearly implies a strengthening of the negative, not a negating of it. "I ain't never gonna do that!" rather than "this is not uninteresting."
 
I think every generation eventually gets caught in a vocabulary time warp between the language we learned and mastered at a young age and the changes being wrought by youth and the passage of time.

It recently occurred to me that ”cool” has had a couple of turns as a popular term. I first learned it in junior high school in the late 60’s, watched it fall out of favor and them come back into favor over the past two decades.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

FarmerTan

"Self appointed king of Arkoland"
I think every generation eventually gets caught in a vocabulary time warp between the language we learned and mastered at a young age and the changes being wrought by youth and the passage of time.

It recently occurred to me that ”cool” has had a couple of turns as a popular term. I first learned it in junior high school in the late 60’s, watched it fall out of favor and them come back into favor over the past two decades.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Agreed. You're Kool.
 
Perhaps a better example would be the oft-used double negative in a context that clearly implies a strengthening of the negative, not a negating of it. "I ain't never gonna do that!" rather than "this is not uninteresting."

Actually, if I recall, there is an interesting history to the double negative in English. Other languages use it as a negative and I am not sure it was always thought of as incorrect in English. Moreover, the contention that a double negative is perceived as a positive, seems to me largely not so. I think most double negative constructions are not ambiguous. I would say still incorrect though, perhaps on the level of saying "ain't."
 
I grew up in a household where enunciation and proper pronunciation were considered good things. One that gets me is the widespread use of a glottal stop for words with a central "t" sound (like cotton, or important). The other is the misuse of complimentary when someone means complementary. I was in a sales presentation and they had a slide for products that were "complimentary" for the main sales item. I completely lost faith in the presenter.
 
Is there a difference between a "glottal stop" and a "glottal t"?
Tells me that a glottal t is the proper pronunciation in American English for "cotton," although if one pronounces it as a "regular t" it is not an error.
 
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