state of the straight razor market?

Was not sure in which forum to post this one, but this looks about right. Not even sure how to ask the question, but here goes.

When I started fooling around with straight razors, and I have lost all track of time, but it seems like maybe 9 month to a year ago, excellent shaving, inexpensive, "beginner" type razors seemed plentiful and readily available. Lots of the original Wapis around, then Wapi IIs and lots of Double Arrows--shave ready or not shave ready for very reasonable prices. I get the impression that not that long before that, lots of the original Wapis, at least, were available at really stunningly low prices. The legendary Ken Rup had them. Various EBay sellers, including the legendary Stamps222, who must have sold hundreds, if not thousands of DAs, had them. My experience is that all three of these razors are really quite nice shavers, and the only issue with them was their scales. Wapi I have heavy stainless steel scales and Wapi IIs and DAs have cheap plastic scales, that sometimes are not put on all that well. Anyway, perfect beginner razors in many ways. Absolutely nothing wrong with the blades, and the scales do not really impact shavability and can be easily enough replaced if one wants to upgrade the aesthetes. (I notice that Seraphim has been basing his rescaled/re-worked objects of pure lust (at least objects of my lust on DAs!) and I am very sure he would not be spending that kind of time on a razor he thought was inferior.

Now, though there seems to be a real dearth of any particular kind of really well-priced razors. Ambrose had a couple or three at really good prices and I am sure knowing him, excellent quality, but not brands I was familiar with.

I did notice that Stamps222 is starting to list DAs again for auction on EBay, one at a time, not quite shave ready, and they seem to be going for $15 to $22 plus $4 shipping, which is more expensive than they used to be, but hardly seems to reflect how many fewer seem to be around these days. And I get these impression that these are the end of the supply from Stamps222.

Couple of questions: What do people think happened? One could say that the Wapis, both I and II, were NOS and supplies just eventually ran out. But it was my impression that the DAs were new new stock, and there was not any particular reason I ever heard that they were get scarce.

Second: Is the market really as slow as it appears to me to be? I would have thought that Ambrose's excellent deal razors would have sold instantly. As I mentioned, there are far fewer of them, but Stamps222 DAs have not gone up all that much in price, and he is selling but one a week?! I cannot quite tell, but it seems like Ken Rup has been out of Wapis and DAs for a long time. I cannot tell whether the "Torrey" he has listed at about $60, if I recall, is a substitute for the others or is a one off.

Are fewer folks taking up straight razor shaving? If it were the economy, I would think that less expensive razors would go quickly, but I would say it is the ones in the $100 plus category, with some brand recognition that sell quickest. Have folks just decided that that they really what a basic Dovo rather than a Wapi, DA, or not so well-known brand?

I a container ship full of DAs or Wapis about to land and go on the market, and everyone knows but me?

Or is my perception incorrect in one or more than one way?

BTW, I have been told that the DAs are relatively harder to get rescaled than say the Wapis, that the DAs have to be a custom job. Is this correct? Anyone rescaling DAs for fairly inexpensive? I still have an use the DA I started with, and I would sure would like better scales for it. Tempted by Ambrose's fine art approach, but might just want something just decent. If DAs are relatively expensive to get re-scaled I guess I could see that surpressing their prices and demand for them, but it does not sound right to me with some many around that someone would not have reasonable replacement scales for them!

Thanks for any thoughts anyone has.

Are you asking about the straight razor market in general, or specifically about the DA market?

You can't really infer anything about the broader market from one small segment of it. I think the supply of Wapi's just dried up. I got mine from the first batch for I think $7, and thought it was ok but not amazing (shaves similar to a sheffield wedge but without the character) though it was quite a good deal for the price.

One thing that has happened with the DAs is there have been some posts recently discussing the fact that they're just not made very well (many are apparently quite bent) and while they shave reasonably well their main appeal is the price and the novelty. I think they were mainly a fad, and fads come and go.

Some guy was griping on SRP a few days ago about why the W&B Barber's Use razors were going for $300-$400 when only a year ago they were only going for much less. And somebody will do a post raving about their pet razor and prices will spike for a few weeks. Or somebody will do a great restoration job on some old razor and ten guys decide they want to do one like that too. Doesn't really mean anything.

when the wapienica first appeared few years ago the price was $8 and the price of a basic new dovo was $40-$50.
the originals were very consistent in quality, but then there were some batches which were apparently quite spotty leading to incorrect correlations with the existence of stamps on the shank etc.
the price of wapis has slowly crept to about $20-$25 and double arrows had appeared to fill in the $10 level.
i wouldn't call the double arrow a razor, it's a really low quality unless some work is put into it like seraphim does.

i'm not quite sure about the market - these things seem to change quite a bit. to me it looks like it's just a lack of basic understanding what's important when purchasing a razor and what isn't. i most certainly have an idea why certain razors sell and why others don't, but in essence it is that to most buyers how a razor shaves is the least important thing, i can think of at least 3 other factors that dominate it.

mparker762 said:

Are you asking about the straight razor market in general, or specifically about the DA market?

You can't really infer anything about the broader market from one small segment of it. I think the supply of Wapi's just dried up. I got mine from the first batch for I think $7, and thought it was ok but not amazing (shaves similar to a sheffield wedge but without the character) though it was quite a good deal for the price.

One thing that has happened with the DAs is there have been some posts recently discussing the fact that they're just not made very well (many are apparently quite bent) and while they shave reasonably well their main appeal is the price and the novelty. I think they were mainly a fad, and fads come and go.

Some guy was griping on SRP a few days ago about why the W&B Barber's Use razors were going for $300-$400 when only a year ago they were only going for much less. And somebody will do a post raving about their pet razor and prices will spike for a few weeks. Or somebody will do a great restoration job on some old razor and ten guys decide they want to do one like that too. Doesn't really mean anything.

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<Are you asking about the straight razor market in general, or specifically about the DA market?>

No, not the market in general but probably not just the DA market either. I guess I am talking about the new and NOS entry level market, for want of a better term.

Thanks for the link to SRP posts. I had read similar things, but I also have had no problems, and have enormous respect for folks like seraphim, who comments at length on that thread and who is doing some of the nicest re-scale and back re-working work I have every seen and seems to favor DAs. Also, unless something has really changed, I think Ken Rup would vouch for the DAs, he has probably honed as many of them as anyone on the planet. (I have had some exchanges with Stamps222, who has certainly sold as many DAs as anyone. Maybe he is not unbiased, but DAs so bent as to be problematic seem to be very unusual in his experience.) Which is not to say there have not been some bad DAs. But TI's quality control problems are starting to really stand out, which is really heartbreaking, and, as the thread indicated, even Dovo has had some problems. But TIs and Dovos are in a different price class.

Anyway, fad does not really make sense to me. I cannot see an entry level shaver looking out over what is available and what is written about razors and saying, what exactly, I really what a Dovo, they way more expensive but i know I am getting quality. Wapis and DAs have their strong defenders, too. And it is not like there is an ocean of DAs offered for sale and people are turning their noses up at them. Prices are up on the few I see around.

I do not think that people were buying DAs for the novelty and the novelty wore off. Maybe some of the custom guys found novelty in them. Most people were looking for a good deal on a razor, especially those starting out. Again, supply seems to have dried up, without price shooting up all that much, and not real substitute that I seem has developed for the Wapis and the DAs. Or for the matter for the entry level Dovos.

Back to the DAs for just a second--I sure do not have any great interest in whether a lot of DAs are sold or not, per see--as I understand the bent blade issue with the DAs it is that the blade angles off somewhat from the tang. That makes it harder to rescale the razor, but I do not see that it hurts the ability to hone and shave with the razor much at all.

Things that make a razor impossible to probably hone, like the Pakistani razors, are big problems in a razor at any price. But the blade being at something of an angle to the tang on a razor that cost $10--so what. Yeah, I guess I could spend the $95 or whatever for the Dovo, hoping for a lower chance of that problem, or could probably get by easily with it, or toss that DA and buy myself another DA! They sure as heck were not all bent and for $10 I can ditch it if I do not like it.

Which bring us back to the razors Ambrose was selling,which seemed excellent at an excellent price. How come they did not sell instantly? What is happening to supply and demand in that sort of starter razor part of the market?

Really appreciate your writing back with your thoughts!

Channing

gugi said:

when the wapienica first appeared few years ago the price was $8 and the price of a basic new dovo was $40-$50.
the originals were very consistent in quality, but then there were some batches which were apparently quite spotty leading to incorrect correlations with the existence of stamps on the shank etc.
the price of wapis has slowly crept to about $20-$25 and double arrows had appeared to fill in the $10 level.
i wouldn't call the double arrow a razor, it's a really low quality unless some work is put into it like seraphim does.

i'm not quite sure about the market - these things seem to change quite a bit. to me it looks like it's just a lack of basic understanding what's important when purchasing a razor and what isn't. i most certainly have an idea why certain razors sell and why others don't, but in essence it is that to most buyers how a razor shaves is the least important thing, i can think of at least 3 other factors that dominate it.

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I did some quick further research. I guess maybe there are slightly more Wapis and DAs for sale than I thought, but not many. I would say that Wapi Is seem to go for just slightly north of $50 on EBay, say (and I did not note shipping price), supposedly shave ready. I do not think that any of the regular commercial sites actually have them in stock. They may list them, but I think if you try to buy you will get a message out of stock. Judging by the about one a week DAs that Stamps222 has been letting out on EBay, very much not shave ready DAs go for $15 to $22, plus $4.00 shipping.

"Best Quality" Dovo from Ken Rup, definitely shave ready, is $85.

<to most buyers how a razor shaves is the least important thing>

So, your view is that the novice shaver purchasing his first straight razor does not really care how it shaves? Well, that would help explain a lot! Also seems like the wrong approach, and one that actually shaving with a straight razor is going to correct pretty much automatically!

i agree with mr parker - it's definitely a hype thing.
a dovo best quality is currently $80 shipped from straightrazordesigns and lynn has honed more of them than anybody else.

when the first wapis showed up people liked the fact that the steel is softer and easy to hone and they quickly became the standard cheap newbie starter at $25 honed and shipped.
some guys liked them a lot, but there has never been a consensus that these are in the same league as say a boker, puma, duck, etc.

as far as pricing goes if stamps22 has 20 or 50 double arrows and doesn't know when he can get more it makes perfect sense for him to sell them one at a time and maximize his profits.
these are really cheap razors when bought in bulk, but bulk orders are huge. it's not hard to find the price points with the volume required - do a search on srp

cstrother said:

So, your view is that the novice shaver purchasing his first straight razor does not really care how it shaves? Well, that would help explain a lot! Also seems like the wrong approach, and one that actually shaving with a straight razor is going to correct pretty much automatically!

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yes, even if it doesn't make sense that's what explains the data. and the reason for that is not them, but the information on these forums. it's completely unbalanced because those who are quick to post generally have little experience and those who can provide good and balanced information don't do much of helping newbies since their main interests are in other things (usually promoting themselves and their friends). of course there are the few exceptions which should be obvious to everybody.

a new person (and even not so new) doesn't really know who's oppinion is more relevant and tends to give more weight to the person who posts most. unfortunately those are usually the overexcited newbies with just enough experience to think they know what they don't know . that's why it's mostly fads that come and go all the time.

the best people for advice on a razor are the guys who hone hundreds and thousands of different brands of razors on a regular basis. second best would be people who have been at this for years and have shaved with hundreds and thousands of razors.
for example a single post of mparker is worth way way more than hundreds of posts from guys who have been using straight razors for 6 months.

it seems just common sense, but from my observations it's not so commonly applied. and that to large extent makes the market what it is...

Thanks for all of the information and for taking all the time. Just a few observations for now.

First, I guess I need to post less than I have been doing lately! <g>

Second, with this follow-up it does not sound like you are saying "the novice shaver purchasing his first straight razor does not really care how it shaves." Rather it sounds like you are saying that it is darn hard for the novice to sort through all that is being said and determine what razor is going to give a good shave. That is very hard to get decent advice. I sure cannot disagree with you there. I guess I would not quite consider myself a novice and I am finding it very difficult to sort things out.

I do not think I was quite disagreeing with mparker about anything and I do not think that mparker was speaking from direct experience as to the quality of the DAs, as he was as to the original Wapis. I think his point was a good one re there has been recent discussion of flaws in the DAs and that may have driven interest in them down. However, I think read carefully, that SRP thread on DAs was hardly damning for most users purposes.

Your point may be a good one that buying a Dovo best quality for $80-85, honed by either Lynn or Ken Rup, is going to pretty much guarantee getting good quality razor, no matter what, including that there have been quality problems reported re each and every currently produced brand of straight razor. (Actually I have not heard of any issues re Bokers.) But I really think the same was true for Wapi and DAs when Ken Rup was selling them honed and tidied up, for $45-$55. I do not know how many Ken R pitched in the trash of either, but I doubt that he would have let many bad razors out into the world. Would not have been good for his reputation, which as far as I can tell is sterling. (Lynn's rep is sterling, too, of course. But Lynn's outfit is selling Dovos and TIs, not Wapis and DAs, so, unless Lynn has said something somewhere, it hard to draw too much from Lynn re the latter razors.)

I was not able to find the price point stuff on the bulk orders of DAs, although I think I have seen that information previously. Another aspect of the market that makes no sense to me. The manufacturer only wants to sell in lots so large that they would flood down the market and likely drive down prices? Not to mention the tremendous risk on a buyer of that quantity re quality issues, etc.

Anyway, I really appreciate the insights.

hmm, i don't have time to look for the da bulk prices, but it was few dollars if not cents per razor and the quantity to order was thousands.
i think it's just had for a chinese exporter to deal with small quantities given the beurocracy, shipping and financing so i think what is happening is somebody in the west has ordered the bulk and then the people who sell on ebay periodically buy smaller quantities from him, like say 100 razors but at $5 each insted of 10000 at $2/razor.

I've talked to david polan about wapis and i've asked glen about their opinions and they have both honed fair amount, even though probably not as many as ken or steve in uk. Don't remember if I ever asked lynn, but that's not had to do either

even bill ellis has an opinion of the wapis - he used to sell some reworked ones on his website.

there are always razors that are not terribly expensive and good for new guys to start with, so i'm not worried.

I have a Polish acquaintance who is going home for a couple of weeks and who said he'd pick a Wapi up for me when he's there. According to him, the std shaving method in Poland is still a straight and its so mundane, he had to look to confirm he actually was using a Wapi- it was in no way unusual or anything to get excited about. I don't know how long that state of affairs is going to last with the increased integration with the EU states, but he didn't hint at limited supply or anything.

Not sure I see a problem. Inflation is a fact of life. While a Dovo best used to be $40 when I started, that was a long time ago. Its probably a good thing that the razor is now $70 or so, more people are interested in straight shaving and less disposables in the trash.

Way back in the day a straight cost $1. But how much &#37; of that man's income was $1? I'm not sure, but I think my grandfather recalls making less than $7 per day in the 1930s. $1 might have been that fellow's daily wage. If your making $10 per hour, you make $80 per day. Dovo Best doesn't seem too expensive anymore.

gugi said:

hmm, i don't have time to look for the da bulk prices, but it was few dollars if not cents per razor and the quantity to order was thousands.
i think it's just had for a chinese exporter to deal with small quantities given the beurocracy, shipping and financing so i think what is happening is somebody in the west has ordered the bulk and then the people who sell on ebay periodically buy smaller quantities from him, like say 100 razors but at $5 each insted of 10000 at $2/razor.

I've talked to david polan about wapis and i've asked glen about their opinions and they have both honed fair amount, even though probably not as many as ken or steve in uk. Don't remember if I ever asked lynn, but that's not had to do either

even bill ellis has an opinion of the wapis - he used to sell some reworked ones on his website.

there are always razors that are not terribly expensive and good for new guys to start with, so i'm not worried.

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Those price points sound familiar based on what I read sometime in the past. Just over or just under a buck, is what I recall for amounts in the thousands. The price points make some sense to me. But what is this manufacturer doing the rest of the time. I would think it would some training to make a decent razor and would take some number of workers to turn out that many razors. or is it all mechanized? Someone has to set the machines, etc,. though. Do they go years between doing runs of straight razors. Or to they have a big domestic market or something. Seems like if they were selling a bunch locally, it would be easy to get small batches over here though. I would be concerned that they would lose their razor making skills between large batches, among other things.

So what did David, Glen, and apparently Bill Ellis have to say? Actually it seems terribly unfair to ask, since they are all in the trade, and their opinions will quite rightfully carry a lot of weight, which means that a lot of razors will be sold or not based on what they say. Same for Ken and Steve. Kind of unfair to ask given that they have been selling the razors! And Lynn is selling razors that compete!

<there are always razors that are not terribly expensive and good for new guys to start with, so i'm not worried.>

I suppose, but I would think it would be hard to figure out what to get. After this discussion, I would not be sure myself what to recommend, except do not buy "Paki" and feel safe in buying from, say, Ambrose. Should someone buy a pre-honed Wapi from I guess it is Steve in the UK? Get a DA off EBay and send it to someone like Ken R for honing? Or go the extra bucks and get a pre-honed Dovo best quality from Lynn or Ken? Or, I think this is utterly problematic, is there something suspect about Seraphim's reworks of DAs that frankly fill me with lust!

I would like to see as many folks shaving with a straight as possible, although I am not sure why. It does tend to drive up prices of the vintage-type razors I am going to be most likely interested in going forward! I would think if the market could deliver a reliable $25-30 razor, lots of folks would give it a try. If a reasonable entry point razor is $80 however, I bet the folks willing to actually give it a try is cut in half or fewer. Given what I and most of you spend on shaving stuff, that is kind of hard to believe, but I bet there was time when each of us bought our first straight and were thinking it might just end up in a drawer somewhere.

Actually, I have a real life example for you. I have certain folks that I would love to turn on to straight razor shaving. I would probably be willing to give each of them a $30 razor. I do not think I am going to go for an $80 one though. Also, I would hate to give anyone, say a honed up DA, and have them read later that it is a cheap piece of crap! I would much rather have them read later that it is a great shaver and the bargain of the century, if you know what I mean!

Thanks for all the information. I really appreciate folks taking the time.

There are quirks to this lower end part of this market that seem unusual to me and interesting, but I am not sure it makes that much difference to me in real life!

leighton said:

Not sure I see a problem. Inflation is a fact of life. While a Dovo best used to be $40 when I started, that was a long time ago. Its probably a good thing that the razor is now $70 or so, more people are interested in straight shaving and less disposables in the trash.

Way back in the day a straight cost $1. But how much % of that man's income was $1? I'm not sure, but I think my grandfather recalls making less than $7 per day in the 1930s. $1 might have been that fellow's daily wage. If your making $10 per hour, you make $80 per day. Dovo Best doesn't seem too expensive anymore.

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No dis to Dovo intended at all. In fact, it is amazing to me that someone could manufacture a decent razor in Germany and have someone like Ken Rup or Lynn hone it and sell it for $80 shipped in the States. (I guess I am assuming they are still manufactured in the Germany!) I have no concern that a Dovo best quality is worth $80 at all. And heck yes $1 was a lot of money back in the day. I wager that $80 is a whole lot less to a modern American than a dollar was back then.

Well, Glen posted his thoughts on SRP about DAs. Not very flattering, but you can go read it and draw whatever conclusions you want about the DAs. Bill's first impressions were also unflattering. He hasn't come out with a full review of them yet, or at least not posted his findings here. I'm sure he has more important things to take up his time.

I am not sure if Lynn has posted anything about the DAs, however, I do not go scouring around the forums looking for information on these razors. I am more than capable of forming my own opinion and if I thought they were worth my time I would certainly have purchased a couple of them off stamps to mess around with.

The bottom line is this: They cost a few dollars wholesale. Your buying a $3 razor from China. You get what you pay for. And that is a $15 razor at retail prices. If you buy from Ken, you get a $45 razor. Why is his more expensive? Because its been honed and all the bad defects have been fixed/removed.

cstrother said:

Actually, I have a real life example for you. I have certain folks that I would love to turn on to straight razor shaving. I would probably be willing to give each of them a $30 razor.

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All you're gonna find at that price point is something stamped out by machine, or by something cost-competitive with machines (e.g. chinese).

You can get a Monsieur Charles razor for about that price, and though it uses an injector blade and is stamped out of pot metal it has the dimensions and heft of a straight razor, and it feels very much like a 6/8 wedge razor when you shave with it (especially if you cork the blade). But that is the only really inexpensive yet good-shaving option I know of. But you can't strop it, and can't hone it, so all you really get is a good simulation of the straight razor shave.

Just order 100pcs of da's

http://www.shuangjian.net/web/en\index.htm

mparker762 said:

All you're gonna find at that price point is something stamped out by machine, or by something cost-competitive with machines (e.g. chinese).

You can get a Monsieur Charles razor for about that price, and though it uses an injector blade and is stamped out of pot metal it has the dimensions and heft of a straight razor, and it feels very much like a 6/8 wedge razor when you shave with it (especially if you cork the blade). But that is the only really inexpensive yet good-shaving option I know of. But you can't strop it, and can't hone it, so all you really get is a good simulation of the straight razor shave.

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I was not saying that the market can deliver a decent straight razor at $30 currently, I was saying "if the market could deliver . . . ."

As far as I can tell none of the Feather type approaches are much like a real straight razor. I frankly do not see how they could be, although corking the blade seems like a move in the right direction.

Kema said:

Just order 100pcs of da's

http://www.shuangjian.net/web/en\index.htm

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There you go! Thanks. I think I had seen this before, way back. Quite the collection of different kinds of Double-Arrows!

leighton said:

Well, Glen posted his thoughts on SRP about DAs. Not very flattering, but you can go read it and draw whatever conclusions you want about the DAs. Bill's first impressions were also unflattering. He hasn't come out with a full review of them yet, or at least not posted his findings here. I'm sure he has more important things to take up his time.

I am not sure if Lynn has posted anything about the DAs, however, I do not go scouring around the forums looking for information on these razors. I am more than capable of forming my own opinion and if I thought they were worth my time I would certainly have purchased a couple of them off stamps to mess around with.

The bottom line is this: They cost a few dollars wholesale. Your buying a $3 razor from China. You get what you pay for. And that is a $15 razor at retail prices. If you buy from Ken, you get a $45 razor. Why is his more expensive? Because its been honed and all the bad defects have been fixed/removed.

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Okay, thanks.

cstrother said:

I would think it would some training to make a decent razor and would take some number of workers to turn out that many razors.

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lol, you must not have seen these 'razors' in person

randy tuttle is another person who bought a bunch of DA to test and he thought they're ok for giving to new guys - the main factors with that being cheap enough to give and capable of holding a shaving edge to be functional.

it seems to me that you're also asking for the impossible - not only cheap razor, but one that's really great. a great razor is expensive to produce since these things require experienced workers and very well controlled process.
i think that only concern with giving somebody a razor to try it should be that it can give them a good idea of what straight shaving is like. anything else is bells and whistles and thus inessential, so there is no problem if it costs more.

cstrother said:

I suppose, but I would think it would be hard to figure out what to get.

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I don't think there should be a single recommendation that's appropriate for everybody, or even for most. Every person has different values and that would determine their choice. The way I see it is that as long as they can make well informed decision it's all good.

For example, while I don't think every person should start with a nice puma gold razor, there's absolutely nothing wrong to do so. They will probably get the same quality shave as the person who opts for a pitted genco, due to the learning curve, but both of them have very different priorities which can lead them to very different picks which are perfect for each of them.

Often times I discourage new guys from buying a particular razor from me because I don't think it's close enough to the 'standard' (I tend to like unusual stuff). On some occasions they have decided to do it anyways, but they understand my objections and realize that it is still a good option for them.

<lol, you must not have seen these 'razors' in person >

I own one. I know you are joking, of course. From what I have been able to glean, the Pakistani razors really will not take an edge at all, so whoever is making these Double Arrows must have some sense of what they are doing. There are lots of inexpensive razors out there and one does not find a whole lot of lengthy discussion of how good any of them are, with two exceptions that I can find: the Wapis and the DAs. Anyway, my comment was in the context of how can anyone be assured of quality in the next round of these if there is one if the factory is turning on and off in order to fill enormous orders.



<it seems to me that you're also asking for the impossible - not only cheap razor, but one that's really great. a great razor is expensive to produce since these things require experienced workers and very well controlled process.>

I don't think I did that. Seems to me that I have been asking about the lower end of the market all along in this thread. Now other folks seem to have come back with well you know you are not going to get a $150 razor for $12. But I sure as heck never said that anyone would. The issue has really been how much does one have to pay to get a reasonably serviceable razor. Unless the concensus is that everyone has to have a really great razor in order not to have a "cheap piece of crap," why would really great razors at all?

With all due respect, I get the feeling that I have written in asking if the Hyundai is a serviceable econo car, and asking why there do not seem to be many around any more, and the response I get is something like "well you know the Hyundai is just never going to be a Benz, and the consumer is going to like the Benz better, and there have been more mechanical problems with the Hyundai than the Bens." <g> (Actually, that last part is probably way off. The Benz probably has way more mechanical problems than the Hyundai.)

Notice that we have thread where you wrote that the original Wapis "became the standard cheap newbie starter at $25 honed and shipped" yet others write in that we cannot possibly expect the market to provide a reasonable straight razor at $30. Maybe I am wrong, but I supect that the $25 honed and shipped Wapi you mentioned would eat a Monsieur Charles' lunch any day of the week!

I have never said that "there has [was] a consensus that [the Wapis] are in the same league as say a boker, puma, duck, etc." Why would there be? Why would that be relevant? No one asks whether a Hyundai is in the same league as Lexus.

Anyway, I think the threads over on the Straight Razor Place pretty much lay it out in detail. http://www.straightrazorplace.com/forums/workshop/36222-double-arrow-quality.html I would suggest that anyone considering the matter check that out. I do not think I am capable of summarizing, except my overall take away is that the DAs often require some attention--for instance, a little shaping beyond the usual honing--but once that is accomplished, lots of fairly expert folks think they take a good edge and cheap it for a reasonable time. Frankly, it looks to me like the experts that more more negative, seem to question not whether it will take a reasonable good edge but whether it will keep that edge for a reaonable amount of time. There seems to be a lack of empirical evidence on the latter topic.

I would also say that there is some conern expressed that popularity may have resulted in a decline in quality, but that also seems to have a lack of empirical support one way or the other.

Sounds like you give good advice to folks that come to you for advice. And maybe at the end of the day the best advice is to find someone you trust and take their advice. On the other hand, I bet most new purchasers try to do a little research on their own and them just buy something. Probably lose a lot of potential traditional shavers as a result!

I really do appreciate folkd taking all the time to respond, and if it seems that way, to argue with me <g>, over this. I am sure we all have better things to do!