Methodshaving and the Water thing

[moses]

I have been thinking this for a while, but Mantic's video sort of spurred this question. There seems to be a huge emphasis on water in the method, and I'm not sure it's not a little missguided. Don't get me wrong. It is what makes wetshaving wet, and is key for a lot. of things. For example, softening the beard comes to mind. It seems to be an essential part of a good shaving media/mix (I don't want to get bogged into method shaving terminology, but I also don't want to say lather, because lather is not necessary for all products).

That said, all this talk of "holding water to the face" seems a bit iffy to me. If I wanted to do nothing but hold water against my face, I would wet it, and then use a non-polar, oil based lather, after all.

As far as I can tell, there are two purposes of the Stuff you apply to your face to shave. They are related. One we usually call lubrication, but they are really both lubrication, so I'm going with slipperness. The razor and blade really need to slide over your face. If there is not a lubricant, there is a lot of friction with metal on dry skin. This will lead to catching, which leads to digging in, which is not good. It also reduces control. It also just results in scratching. Which leads to the other function of Stuff. Stuff provides a "cushion" as people say. Basically, it provides a miniscule barrier that keeps the blade from quite touching the skin. Really this is not so different from lubrication, if it is different at all. This is one of the key functions of any lubricant.

So basically, Stuff (lather, gel, whatever), is primarily just a lubricant. Just like the oil in your engine that 1) makes things slippery so that the pistons can slide easily through the cylinder, and 2) provides a barrier between the two so that the cylinder does not get scratched.

Which brings me to my point. Water is a so-so lubricant at best. First of all, it just is not slippery. If you don't believe me, get your hand wet, and rub your fingers together. Or even hold your hand under water and do that. Now either spray a little WD-40 on your fingers, or apply a good shaving soap or cream. Notice a difference. Yep. I thought so. Also, water does not provide much of a barrier at all. Those tiny little molecules that don't really adhere that well, just don't much stay in the way between blade and skin.

The logical extension of the theory that water is what you need, and that the real purpose of Stuff is just to hold water to your face, you would be best off just shaving with water only in the shower. That will work, but it will be an abrasive shave, for the reasons above. Close (no lubricating barrier), but abrasive.

No. You need something else. The truth is that with most shaving creams/soaps with use, the water just acts as a media to hold the real lubricants, and thins them out, because there would be too much cushion to cut close otherwise. What lubricates your face and gives you a good shave in methodshaving, I submit, is that olive oil soap. Good, slippery stuff. Then a little "paste" is added to make it lather. Which, for all the fuss we make about it, lather is really just about getting a good, even, and stable (doesn't run off) distribution of lubricant on your face.

-Mo

[Kyle]

Expertly said, Mo. At the risk of offending some of his die-hard followers, CAR is a salesman. This neither makes him a bad person nor makes what he is trying to sell a bad product. I believe that he does honestly try to help people and that he is passionate about a product line that he truly believes in, however, he is still a salesman. No different than Gillette, he has created some unique language to explain his products (good marketing) and he would have you believe that his way/products are the best (as would Gillette of theirs). CAR, like any vendor/salesman, is in this business to make money. This doesn't contribute to or detract from the quality of his product line and it certainly doesn't make him a monster. It simply is how it is.

Now, let the throwing of rotten vegetables begin!:biggrin:

[Austin]

Expertly said, Mo. At the risk of offending some of his die-hard followers, CAR is a salesman. This neither makes him a bad person nor makes what he is trying to sell a bad product. I believe that he does honestly try to help people and that he is passionate about a product line that he truly believes in, however, he is still a salesman. No different than Gillette, he has created some unique language to explain his products (good marketing) and he would have you believe that his way/products are the best (as would Gillette of theirs). CAR, like any vendor/salesman, is in this business to make money. This doesn't contribute to or detract from the quality of his product line and it certainly doesn't make him a monster. It simply is how it is.

Now, let the throwing of rotten vegetables begin!:biggrin:

Kyle, that's a point well taken. I agree with your perspective.

[nemurenai]

I agree, actually I've tried shaving under water before in my tub, as a test and, tonnes of water on my face doesn't work as well as with slick cream. Maybe it softens well before but not during face meets blade

[Kyle]

I agree, actually I've tried shaving under water before in my tub, as a test and, tonnes of water on my face doesn't work as well as with slick cream.

Now that is dedication to art! :biggrin:

[ratcheer]

Moses, I am pretty much in total agreement with your post at the start of this thread.

So, now you have me wondering. Would WD-40 actually make a good shaving agent? I use it for just about everything else. Besides the possibility of a better shave, it would probably keep your blades cleaner, longer.

Also, why not just a dab of straight olive oil?

Tim

[TraderJoe]

Water is an important component of lather.

Have you tried applying a shaving cream, or soap for that matter to a dry face and then shave with it? It doesn't work well.....at all.

I'm not sure its accurate to say that water is being "held to the face" but I'm also not sure its inaccurate. Most of the lather creams we use are activated by water, and it is the water in the lather that keeps the medium wet and slick.

If instead of lather, you want strictly a "lubricant"....Astroglide may be a suitable option, but I'd imagine WD40 may irritate your skin.

[Gatorade]

IThat said, all this talk of "holding water to the face" seems a bit iffy to me. If I wanted to do nothing but hold water against my face, I would wet it, and then use a non-polar, oil based lather, after all.

So basically, Stuff (lather, gel, whatever), is primarily just a lubricant. Just like the oil in your engine that 1) makes things slippery so that the pistons can slide easily through the cylinder, and 2) provides a barrier between the two so that the cylinder does not get scratched.

OK, try this one on for size. On a molecular level when water penetrates the hair it causes the hair to swell slightly. This allows the blade to slice through the bonds holding the hair together easier. Then once the shave is done and the face is cleaned and the water leaves the hair the hair shrinks to its normal size. Thus a smoother feel. Haven't you noticed that 20 minutes after you shave your face feels smoother?

So that is where the importance of water comes into play. Not to act as a viscus lubricant but to allow the bonds holding things together to be broken more easily.

The lubrication comes into play when the razor glides over the skin. The smoother the glide the easier the cut.

So the water and the stuff work together to provide a smooth comfortable shave.


I think....:redface:

[James707]

Moses, I am pretty much in total agreement with your post at the start of this thread.

So, now you have me wondering. Would WD-40 actually make a good shaving agent? I use it for just about everything else. Besides the possibility of a better shave, it would probably keep your blades cleaner, longer.

Also, why not just a dab of straight olive oil?

Tim

Could be wrong, but I believe WD40 is a carcinogen.

[Gatorade]

Moses, I am pretty much in total agreement with your post at the start of this thread.

So, now you have me wondering. Would WD-40 actually make a good shaving agent? I use it for just about everything else. Besides the possibility of a better shave, it would probably keep your blades cleaner, longer.

Also, why not just a dab of straight olive oil?

Tim

Ah no. The oil would repel water and while it may be a smooth glide of the razor you would get stubble back quicker than if you used a lather/water mix.

You can try using a preshave oil alone and let us know how it worked initally as well as over the course of the day.

Many preshave oils are made up of an olive oil base. Soaps as well so straight olive oil would be fine to try out.

[TraderJoe]

Haven't you noticed that 20 minutes after you shave your face feels smoother?


Hey pal, excellent point! And probably very important for new guys to consider as I didn't realize this at first.

When I first started, I went (of course) for the BBS, and so I would keep hacking away until I couldn't see any hair. Guess how that ended up. :biggrin:

Now, knowing that the hair retracts after the skin has rested and dried, I know this isn't necessary to get a "smooth" BBS feel.

[Gatorade]

Haven't you noticed that 20 minutes after you shave your face feels smoother? Hey pal, excellent point! And probably very important for new guys to consider as I didn't realize this at first.

When I first started, I went (of course) for the BBS, and so I would keep hacking away until I couldn't see any hair. Guess how that ended up. :biggrin:

Now, knowing that the hair retracts after the skin has rested and dried, I know this isn't necessary to get a "smooth" BBS feel.

:wink: :cool:

[fuerein]

OK, try this one on for size. On a molecular level when water penetrates the hair it causes the hair to swell slightly. This allows the blade to slice through the bonds holding the hair together easier. Then once the shave is done and the face is cleaned and the water leaves the hair the hair shrinks to its normal size. Thus a smoother feel. Haven't you noticed that 20 minutes after you shave your face feels smoother?

So that is where the importance of water comes into play. Not to act as a viscus lubricant but to allow the bonds holding things together to be broken more easily.

The lubrication comes into play when the razor glides over the skin. The smoother the glide the easier the cut.

So the water and the stuff work together to provide a smooth comfortable shave.


I think....:redface:


You learn the water expands the hair thing from that shaving documentary that was on one of the Discovery Channels not too long ago? I remember that was the first time I ever heard anyone mention that as a reason for using water.

[Gatorade]

You learn the water expands the hair thing from that shaving documentary that was on one of the Discovery Channels not too long ago? I remember that was the first time I ever heard anyone mention that as a reason for using water.


I think I remember hearing it from Chris Moss on SMF first but the Discovery Channel video visualy cemented it into my brain. Very good visual there.

[moses]

That's a good point about the swelling of the hair. Never thought of that. And of course the softening aspect is important.

For the record, I was never suggesting that water was unimportant or irrelevant, just that it is not so central as to make everything else irrelevant except as a water holder, more or less.

Joe,
Well, I do agree that most creams do not work well without water added. That is, of course, because they are designed to be thinned with water, and are too thick and goopy by themselves. I could be wrong though, but I am pretty sure the main function of the water in the mix, other than it's impact on the hairs directly, which is mostly during pre-shave anyway, is to be a thinning agent for the lubricant. Basically, soap/cream is just to darn thick and sticky. The molecules are large, and bond together pretty strongly. Water is a much smaller molecule, and not a very viscous substance at all. So when you mix it in, it thins down the mix. When you have it right, you have just enough soap to provide a barrier to the razor, and allow it to slide, but not so much as to gum things up.

Just my theory.

Shaving oil is a different thing, really, since you are just using less viscous oils as a lubricant. You do apply it on a wet face, of course. (Thinking of PSO here). rubbing it arround, you sort of spread it, and intersperse it with the water already there. Same principle in a way, I think, except that the water and oil don't mix, and will only emulsify so well, so it is liable to be a little uneven. One of the reasons I think soap/cream is better.

WD40 would probably work fairly well, straight. After soaking the hair that is, to swell/soften. A thin lubricant, especially with teflon, would probably work better (WD40 is a decent lubricant, but not the best). But all of this stuff is NOT something you want to be spraying on your face. And I enjoy the smell in a way, but....

So I'll stick to cream/soap. And stop analyzing why it works, since it bloody well does.

-Mo

[ratcheer]

Moses, I am pretty much in total agreement with your post at the start of this thread.

So, now you have me wondering. Would WD-40 actually make a good shaving agent? I use it for just about everything else. Besides the possibility of a better shave, it would probably keep your blades cleaner, longer.

Also, why not just a dab of straight olive oil?

Tim

So, intrigued by this thread, last night I tried shaving with nothing but baby oil.

It was a fairly positive result. Even though it was my 5th shave with a cheap US Personna blade, I got an extremely close shave. Eerily close, bordering on unbelievably close.

The only problem was a fair amount of post-shave skin irritation. There were no obvious nicks or cuts, but my skin kind of stung all over. I tried to quell it with my aloe gel that contains tea tree extract and lidocaine, but even that didn't help much.

Also, after I wiped off the blade with a tissue, it looked brand new. I may shave with it again, to see how it does.

I may try this oil shaving again, with the same or a different oil.

Tim

[Kyle]

I would recommend changing the blade. Before my transition into DE shaving, I tried this with a M3 and completely ruined a new blade in 1 shave.

The baby oil acts as a barrier that prevents your hair from absorbing any water. This means every hair is at its toughest; nearly equivalent to copper wire of the same diameter. You basically just used your blade as a wire cutter.

[collinarose]

Very interesting post. I seem to remember in the Discovery Channel documentary someone saying that the use of the shaving cream was to keep water on the face during the shave. I think Mo is correct, water alone doesn't do it. Neither does cream alone. CAR refers to it as the "gas" and the "clutch". The blending of hydrate and emollient to create the protective but slick barrier.

As for the use of the paste with the Cube, I'm sure that's up for debate. I've found that the paste does more than just help the Cube lather up though. I think the Cube gives you a lot of the slickness and holds a lot of water, but can be a little short when it comes to protecting the skin. The paste seems to give the mix a little more of a protective barrier while not displacing the water.

-Collin

[doctorsimon]

Expertly said, Mo. At the risk of offending some of his die-hard followers, CAR is a salesman. This neither makes him a bad person nor makes what he is trying to sell a bad product. I believe that he does honestly try to help people and that he is passionate about a product line that he truly believes in, however, he is still a salesman. No different than Gillette, he has created some unique language to explain his products (good marketing) and he would have you believe that his way/products are the best (as would Gillette of theirs). CAR, like any vendor/salesman, is in this business to make money. This doesn't contribute to or detract from the quality of his product line and it certainly doesn't make him a monster. It simply is how it is.

Now, let the throwing of rotten vegetables begin!:biggrin:

That was expressed far better than I ever could manage. :smile:

[MartyW]

Water and oil together are much slicker than either one separately. Think of how slippery a road can get with just a small amount of rain. After it rains for a while the road is not nearly as slippery because the rain washes away some of the collected oil and grease. Even try just some cooking oil on your hands, and then rinse your hands in some water and see how slick they are then. The purpose of shaving creams and soaps is to break down the natural separation of oil and water with emulsifiers. It works like using dry mustard in an oil and vinegar dressing.

[Magnulus]

Old Post but I read some of the RWMS stuff and got the same feeling. Water is a poor lubricant. If it were so great we'd be running it in crankcases in our engines instead of oil. It does lubricate some, especially soft water, but there are much better fluids that have a more durable film strength.

However, oil on the skin alone would block out water and wouldn't soften hairs or skin at all- it would just float on top of the outer layer of the hair, as was said previously. I'm no chemical expert but I do suspect that keeping things wet also does contribute to keeping things slick, the wet oily road analogy being a good one- before a road has the oil washed away after a rain storm, the roads are very slick (very observable if you ride a motorcycle or scooter like I do), for about 20 minutes to an hour. Water makes the oils rise up and float more, so maybe the water is making the oil, oilier.

Regardless, a shaving soap lathered up is an emulsion of saponified fats, oils, and water. Same with shaving cream. Even the canned stuff. The only essential difference is that the products differen in how much water is packaged in there to start out, and a few minor differences in the quantity and nature of ingredients.

[gse123]

I don;t see water as a lubricant at all - it is there to soften the hairs. It then prevents the chosen lubricant from becoming too dry, but does not lubricate itself per say.