Hi Laz

[AFDavis11]

Hi Laz,

This is Alan. I have 148 questions in no particular order. I thought I'd jump in here because I need all the help I can get. I've been at the straightrazor game for a while now, bout a year atleast. I don't quite get it. I have no experience honing so that is part of my problem and no real experience stropping either. I have a strop, 5 razors, Norton 4/8, a carbarondum hone, and a Swaty hone. I also have lots of pastes and extra strop material. I would like to simplify my understanding of the process as simplicity is important to me. As you can imagine, simplicity doesn't exactly pour out of the straight razor shaving process.

So my first question is about honing as I would like to understand the process better.

1. Because I have only had luck honing with using moderate pressure on the blade I wonder if you could describe the pressure you use. I find that no/light pressure is useless. Do I just need to quadrouple my passes on the hone and continue trying for the next couple of years to use no pressure or do you actually use some pressure, say just enough to keep the blade on the hone securely. I find with the one time I have had success that this helped. But again I have only had success honing once.

Next question...

2. What pressure do you use on the strop...both the hand holding the strop and with the blade hand. ? I've had no luck here but again I think that some pressure is needed. I understand that I'm wrong...but just want to get your take on it. What speed do you use on the strop as well? Here I can see using very light pressure but whats your real take on it.

Third question for tonight....

Based on all the stuff I have and your experience what would you use to hone a razor up and maintain it based on my interest to keep things simple. Would you just practice on the 4/8 or would you focus on the carbarundum and Swaty. Or some other combo...

Ok, thats good for tonight...145 questions to go....but I'll hold off a little on those.....
:huh:

[Laz in Tampa]

Hello back! Lemme see if I can help you, I hope I can!

I would like to simplify my understanding of the process as simplicity is important to me. As you can imagine, simplicity doesn't exactly pour out of the straight razor shaving process.

Simplicity is a necessity for learning. You need to "learn" how each hone works, before you start switching them around. Learn one, and then you can experiment with others. I would recommend the Norton 4000/8000 out of what you have right now, because the dual grits can get pretty much any razor back to shaving sharp for you. Different hones will take different amounts of strokes to acheive the same results, so keep with one until you have it down pat.



1. Because I have only had luck honing with using moderate pressure on the blade I wonder if you could describe the pressure you use. I find that no/light pressure is useless. Do I just need to quadrouple my passes on the hone and continue trying for the next couple of years to use no pressure or do you actually use some pressure, say just enough to keep the blade on the hone securely. I find with the one time I have had success that this helped. But again I have only had success honing once.


Pressure is a variable, I cannot give you one answer that will apply to all razors. I have some that are ground so thin, ANY pressure will flex the blade, throwing off the angle of the edge to the hone. Reflect light off the blade as you hone to see if your razor is flexing at all. A heavy wedge grind razor will accept more pressure than an extra-hollow grind.
Lets start with a badly dulled razor. And a few tips for the Norton. Make sure the surface is relatively clean. If you have a lot of metal build-up on the Norton, clean it off with a scrubbing sponge and elbow grease, or you can put some wet/dry sandpaper on a countertop and 5-10 passes, rubbing the Norton onto the sandpaper will clean off the surface. This is called "lapping".
What I have found works well for me is alternating the grits during honing. 10 or 12 each way on the 4000 side, half a dozen of so on the 8000, and check the edge to see what progress you made. For unknown reasons, it seems to work better for me than just sticking to the 4000 side. You might have to use a bit, slight, very little pressure when restoring an edge as described above (removing nicks, etc). Once you have the bevel corrected and true, you can work on polishing the edge with the 8000 side. You will know when the edge is true by shaving hair off your forearm, using the entire length of the blade. Make sure it shaves smoothly the whole length. If there are any dull or rough spots, keep working on the edge till you get it uniform. No sense trying to polish an edge that does not have a tue or correct bevel to it.
Try about 5 passes on the 800 side, and test shave.
Ah, a word about pressure when you are polishing an edge.... What works best for me, is to sit at a table, put the Norton on something to make it chest or chin high, and using ONE hand, slowly use the X-pattern. You will see where your balance is off as you might tip the razor one way or another, but practice will improve your technique.



Next question...

2. What pressure do you use on the strop...both the hand holding the strop and with the blade hand. ? I've had no luck here but again I think that some pressure is needed. I understand that I'm wrong...but just want to get your take on it. What speed do you use on the strop as well? Here I can see using very light pressure but whats your real take on it.

I hold the strop tight to eliminate any sag, but not so tight as to leave my fingerprints in the leather. I try to hold the strop parallel to the ground, and use no pressure, so even the weight of the blade doesn't "sag" the strop. That takes practice. But there is nothing wrong about laying a hanging strop on the edge of a table or counter and using it that way, either (basically like a paddle strop). I don't speed down the strop, nor does it take all day. Maybe a two-one thousand count for each side of the razor to go up and down the strop.

Third question for tonight....

Based on all the stuff I have and your experience what would you use to hone a razor up and maintain it based on my interest to keep things simple. Would you just practice on the 4/8 or would you focus on the carbarundum and Swaty. Or some other combo...

Ok, thats good for tonight...145 questions to go....but I'll hold off a little on those.....


I guess I answered your question first. The Norton with the two grits will help you more now than the barber hones. Barber hones like the Swaty and Carborundum are meant for refreshing an edge that has just lost it keenness. They will take you forever to restore an edge. They are very fine grits, therefore to be used only to "refresh" an edge.
I am assuming you are honing some Ebay razors, and in my humble experience, the edges on them are generally NOT "almost shave ready", nor will a few laps on the barber hones be sufficient for them.
Barber hones are great tools, but not to restore dulled or nicked edges.

Don't worry about the pastesand other hones for now, the Norton can get you a smooth shave by itself. Work on perfecting your honing with the Norton, then we can learn about pastes and whatnot.

[Joe Lerch]

Based on all the stuff I have and your experience what would you use to hone a razor up and maintain it based on my interest to keep things simple. Would you just practice on the 4/8 or would you focus on the carbarundum and Swaty. Or some other combo...


I thought I would put in my two cents in a way to help you the most.

You are shaving so you must have some working razors. The thing you need to learn to use the most are the strop and the Swaty. To make life easier, I would get a paddle strop. It removes most of the variables. While you're at it, get one with 2 sides so you can put a .5 micron paste on one. You can also get a Streichmen-Riemen two sided paddle for about $25. I prefer this because the pasted side is permanent (doesn't require re-pasting).

When you go to the paddle your success is almost assured. Just keep enough pressure so you feel a drag on the strop.

Learn to use the Swaty and your trips to the hone will be rare. When the razor starts to pull. Give it a few swipes on the Swaty. I mean a few 3-4. Strop, and you razor is refreshed. You can keep the razor keen like this for a long time.

If you get the pasted strop, I would do one or two swipes on it before the normal strop, and you make the trips to the Swaty less frequent.

If you learn to use these two you will rarely need to hone.

Honing had a steep learning curve for me. The key was developing a good test for sharpness. The various hair cutting tests don't work for me, even with razors I get from Lynn. I think my hair is too fine. Besides, you really need a test that let's you monitor progress and that will tell you what you need to do next. For me the thumb and thumbnail test used by barbers met the need.

You will need to develop the feel, but here's how I use them. Detailed discussions of the tests are available at classicshaving.com in the "how to -- and why section."

THUMB TEST
Do this test when you first pick up a razor.

Support the razor gently with the edge pointing up and lightly drag your thumb across the edge in a few places along the blade:
1) If the thumb slides easily and there’s no grab, go to the thumbnail test;
2) If the razor grabs slightly, do 3 swipes on 8K stone and 15-20 on strop, then repeat test;
3) If the razor grabs but you feel no edge do 10 swipes on strop, then repeat test;
4) If the razor grabs really well or moves with the thumb, you will usually feel an edge- shave.

THUMBNAIL TEST
You have failed the thumb test.

Rest the blade on top of the thumbnail with edge pointing down and tilt the thumb downward slowly. If the razor slips sideways go to the 4K stone.

If not, bring thumb back to level and slide the blade on thumbnail from one end to the other:
1) If the blade slides smoothly and doesn’t dig in, go to the 4K stone (dull);
2) If the blade digs in but doesn’t move smoothly, go to the 8K stone (coarse);
3) If the blade moves smoothly and feels like it’s digging in, but you feel a gap or bump, you have a nick at that spot;
4) If the blade moves smoothly and feels like it’s digging in, go to the strop;
5) If the blade digs in but makes a rough, scraping sound you have an overhoned edge.

I've described the tests in terms of using a 4/8K, but you can add a Swaty (just remember it's fast) and pasted strop. When you move off the 8K, go to the Swaty and do a few swipes, then test. Keep doing it until you don't feel the Swaty make a difference. The move up to the pasted strop and do the same. You can test after every 10 swipes.

The feature of this system is that you're not working in the dark. There are no pyramids. You're always moving in one direction- afiner abrasive and a finer edge. Stop when you're happy with it.

The ultimate test is shaving! However, I have now done 30 razors in a row that passed the shave test the first tme I tried. So these tests are pretty reliable.

One more thing. Get yourself a $10 pocket microscope from Radio Shack. I have found that every razor from Ebay has at least microscopic faults that show up as a rough edge at 100x. I tested razors that were shaving and found it. When I removed the unevenness, the shaved much better.

Now, when I start working on an Ebay razor, I check it at 100x and get that edge staight at 100x before I do anything else. Sometimes the edge is deteriorated and you'll get past the 8K but won't be able t get it really smooth because very tiny pieces of the fin crumble or fall out. Getting down to good metal first avoids this.

[AFDavis11]

Thanx gentlemen,

Ok that makes a nice lead in to question 144....lol. But first, I do have one razor that seems to shave nicely, very intuitive Joe. Also I have the microscope as well. And Laz, thanx I actually would like to focus on the Norton for now as I'm a little suspicious about getting a blade shaving sharp with just the 8,000 and would think that doing so would be the break through I'm looking for honing wise. So on the razors that I have that are shaving poorly on one in particular I see a rough spot that I don't like very much. Its a big rough spot, no longer really deep, i honed it down but still not even. I have honed it down considerably but the rough spot still remains. Should I consider tipping the spine up to hone it completely flat? And should I consider tipping any other razors to get the edge flat or should I stick with an x pattern or circlular honing and always a flat spine? I'd say the erupted section is about 1/4 the depth of the edge right now. It started at 3/4.

So to summarize question 144 is, should I ever lift the spine to flaten a blade edge out and restart if ordinary honing is seeming to fail to ever get the blade edge flat?

Next question is...143, ofcourse. What are the causes of those little chips in the edge? I'm seeing those on my new razors as well as the old ones. My suspicions are that Im honing with an unclean hone and sometimes I hear the blade seem to hit something as it moves down the hone, second every once in a while I sort of "drop" the edge on the hone as I flip the blade over on the spine and it hits the hone kinda hard. Would that be enough to cause the blade to micro break? And are there any other things I should look out for that a honing fool might do to cause those little chips? Honing them out is great fun but I'd like to stop them from happening if possible.

On to question 142, Joe, for the blade that is shaving well I'm sure you can imagine I don't want to screw it up and I have hidden it from the other razors and the Norton but the Swaty would be perfect for it and will soon need to be refreshed. My Swaty came with the original directions and it didnt say anything about using lather or water on the hone. So is it just used dry? Also, its old like, 40 years old, and it has what appears to be streams running through it so its not exactly flat. I gave a half attempt at flattening it with wet/dry sand paper but it didn't seem to respond much. Maybe its too hard and low grit. It has worked at improving an edge once very well but typically not too often. I think it only works on near shaving razors.

142...Should I use a Swaty dry and is it ok if its got little groove worn into it?

So for today, the Norton and one of my blades with just small nicks in it...this one is stainless I think so it may take awile...but I'll lap the Norton first and try some work on it. This one has given me some great shaves at one point but I seemed to have lost the edge on it. I find it hard to know when the razor is good, I have overhoned in the past. I'll work on the thumb tests, Joe, also.

Ok, thats it for today...and thanx gentlemen for your time...

[Laz in Tampa]

Thanx gentlemen,

Ok that makes a nice lead in to question 144....lol. But first, I do have one razor that seems to shave nicely, very intuitive Joe. Also I have the microscope as well. And Laz, thanx I actually would like to focus on the Norton for now as I'm a little suspicious about getting a blade shaving sharp with just the 8,000 and would think that doing so would be the break through I'm looking for honing wise. So on the razors that I have that are shaving poorly on one in particular I see a rough spot that I don't like very much. Its a big rough spot, no longer really deep, i honed it down but still not even. I have honed it down considerably but the rough spot still remains. Should I consider tipping the spine up to hone it completely flat? And should I consider tipping any other razors to get the edge flat or should I stick with an x pattern or circlular honing and always a flat spine? I'd say the erupted section is about 1/4 the depth of the edge right now. It started at 3/4.

If there is still a dip, chip, or nick in the blade, I would recommend more honing until it is gone. The edge needs to be all flat, straight and uniform for a smooth shave.
You can tip the blade at a higher angle to quickly remove the dip, or use the circular method, but I think you are almost there, so keep using the X-pattern.

So to summarize question 144 is, should I ever lift the spine to flaten a blade edge out and restart if ordinary honing is seeming to fail to ever get the blade edge flat?

Yes, you can. If I have a razor with a deep chip, I might use that method to get the bevel straight,then do the X-pattern to make the bevel true to the spine

Next question is...143, ofcourse. What are the causes of those little chips in the edge? I'm seeing those on my new razors as well as the old ones. My suspicions are that Im honing with an unclean hone and sometimes I hear the blade seem to hit something as it moves down the hone, second every once in a while I sort of "drop" the edge on the hone as I flip the blade over on the spine and it hits the hone kinda hard. Would that be enough to cause the blade to micro break? And are there any other things I should look out for that a honing fool might do to cause those little chips? Honing them out is great fun but I'd like to stop them from happening if possible.

You could be overhoning, which makes the edge too fragile. Make sure you rotate the razor on its spine after you do each stroke. If you hit the edge on the hone, this probably is causing the dips and chips.

On to question 142, Joe, for the blade that is shaving well I'm sure you can imagine I don't want to screw it up and I have hidden it from the other razors and the Norton but the Swaty would be perfect for it and will soon need to be refreshed. My Swaty came with the original directions and it didnt say anything about using lather or water on the hone. So is it just used dry? Also, its old like, 40 years old, and it has what appears to be streams running through it so its not exactly flat. I gave a half attempt at flattening it with wet/dry sand paper but it didn't seem to respond much. Maybe its too hard and low grit. It has worked at improving an edge once very well but typically not too often. I think it only works on near shaving razors.

Swaty's are VERY hard, and lapping them can be very tough. Best way to do that is to lap them against another hard similar construction barber hone. Use water to keep them lubricated.

142...Should I use a Swaty dry and is it ok if its got little groove worn into it?

Anything under the main surface of the hone will not affect the blade, for it never touches the edge. You can use the Swaty dry, with water, oil, or lather. Your choice.

So for today, the Norton and one of my blades with just small nicks in it...this one is stainless I think so it may take awile...but I'll lap the Norton first and try some work on it. This one has given me some great shaves at one point but I seemed to have lost the edge on it. I find it hard to know when the razor is good, I have overhoned in the past. I'll work on the thumb tests, Joe, also.

Ok, thats it for today...and thanx gentlemen for your time...

One thing to remember, this is an art, not a science. I am not by any means discounting what Joe told you, pasted strops can be a great way to keep your razors sharp. There is more than one way to skin a cat, but be consistent when you are learning to remove the variables.
No one has all the answers, or I should say the "only" answer.

[Scotto]

This is really great information, guys. Keep it up!

[AFDavis11]

Thanx Laz,

I just finished my honing cycles with the stainless blade on the Norton 4/8. I shaved in the middle of the action to try to keep track of what I was doing. I used about 5 cycles all together. 3-4 passes on the 4,000 and then maybe 20-30 on the 8,000. After I was done I started shaving. I went back to the hone 3 times during the shave which took me about 40 minutes. I remember when it took that long without honing...Atleast by the end of it my face was well prepped. I was able to shave pretty well, not great but no redness and a decent shave. I needed to touch up a little with my well sharpened straight afterwards. In the beginning it pulled and jumped on my face, but after a few cycles got pretty smooth. I was able to use some pressure (whilst shaving), which seems to help me get a closer shave. I assume using pressure while shaving is ok as long as the blade is smooth. Overall I was pretty let down on how easy the whole thing was. Your right about the cycles they have some odd effect on the process.

I did use some pressure on the hone in the beginning but I noticed that at one point only half the bevel (the half away from the edge) was getting smooth on the 8,000 which I assumed was because of the pressure and so I backed off a little. Gotta love those microscopes. Then most of the bevel started getting smooth.

I may be imagining things but I think the left side of my face got smoother than the right. which makes me wonder about a bevel inbalance of some sort.

I plan on doing a few more cycles on the blade today and shave again in the A.M. It seems like it is very close to shaving very well with only the Norton, which is a great start.

I did as you suggested and placed the hone up high near my eye level that helped a little. I think I may start honing standing up instead of sitting. I don't have very good eyesight close in so I may use my reading glasses today.

I'm not the kind of guy who is looking for baby close shaves, just smooth with a reduction in skin tearing I get from modern shaves.

So that moves us to question 141...when is the best sign to stop honing, just shave and then hone and shave and stop when you hit the "best" shave?

140...What is the signifigance of the hone "sucking" on the blade? I know thats a good sign but I'm not sure what to do about it. Some have said to stop honing and some say...no keep going...then when do I stop?

139...I'm a tad confused on the Swaty. Not that I'm using it but I'm just curious...it is a hard stone that cuts fast? I thought it cut slow...

138...if I do have some kind of inbalance in the bevel should I try to hone it more on one side than the other? Both sides seemed to push water off the Norton so I'm tempted to just press with my game plan.

137...you use some pressure when you shave? Seems to work as long as I remove all the little nicks

136/135...after I got done lapping the Norton there were still some black streaks in both sides. I assume thats steel residue. I suppose I should remove all that too right? Does the wet/dry sandpaper need to be replaced after each use?

Sorry, as I said my question aren't in any particular order... :smile:

[Joe Lerch]

Laz gave a great response. I'm just going to fill in from my point of view. See below.

AFDavis11 So on the razors that I have that are shaving poorly on one in particular I see a rough spot that I don't like very much. Its a big rough spot, no longer really deep, i honed it down but still not even. I have honed it down considerably but the rough spot still remains. Should I consider tipping the spine up to hone it completely flat? And should I consider tipping any other razors to get the edge flat or should I stick with an x pattern or circlular honing and always a flat spine? I'd say the erupted section is about 1/4 the depth of the edge right now. It started at 3/4.
Laz, with his experience, can lift the spine, I don't recommend it at your stage. I also don't recommend going below a 1K grit. There's just too much room to screw things up. For a bad nick, you can go to the 1K and put tape on the spine. Remove the tape when you leave the 1K. You could use the 4K and circular strokes. I've done it, but it's a lot of work with a 4K. Since, it's slower, you have more control over what's going on. Work the blade evenly on both sides until you can't see the nick. Then do the thumbnail test. If you feel a bump move to the 4K and hone normally, checking frequently, until the bump disappears, then move to the 8K.

Look under a microscope at 100x and see if the are any microscopic chips or unevenness. There usually is. Hone both sides, checking frequently. When the edge is even and the fin is continuous, you should be done. Do a thumb test. The edge should be sharp. Move on to stropping.

I participated in a thread recently where a guy had a shaving razor, but just couldn't get it keen. At 100x it showed micro chips, and no amount of honing, even on fine pastes, was able to remove them. It turned out that the edge had somehow deteriorated and was crumbling microscopically. The problem was solved by re-forming the edge to get down to good metal. At that point even after just the 8K, the edge looked good at 100x.

So to summarize question 144 is, should I ever lift the spine to flaten a blade edge out and restart if ordinary honing is seeming to fail to ever get the blade edge flat?
I wouldn't because it's too easy to hone the edge on an angle that way. For a deep chip I would tape the spine and hone flat with circular motions, and keep an eye out to make sure the edge is an even strip. The only thing preventing it would be un-even pressure. When you take the tape off the spine and edge will be parallel with minimum wear on the spine.

Next question is...143, ofcourse. What are the causes of those little chips in the edge? I'm seeing those on my new razors as well as the old ones. My suspicions are that Im honing with an unclean hone and sometimes I hear the blade seem to hit something as it moves down the hone, second every once in a while I sort of "drop" the edge on the hone as I flip the blade over on the spine and it hits the hone kinda hard. Would that be enough to cause the blade to micro break? And are there any other things I should look out for that a honing fool might do to cause those little chips? Honing them out is great fun but I'd like to stop them from happening if possible.
There are a number of possibilities. Most likely is rough handling, as Laz points out. But if it's an Ebay razor or it hasn't been honed in a long time, it could be edge deterioration, such as through microscopic rust formation, as above.

On to question 142, Joe, for the blade that is shaving well I'm sure you can imagine I don't want to screw it up and I have hidden it from the other razors and the Norton but the Swaty would be perfect for it and will soon need to be refreshed. My Swaty came with the original directions and it didnt say anything about using lather or water on the hone. So is it just used dry? Also, its old like, 40 years old, and it has what appears to be streams running through it so its not exactly flat. I gave a half attempt at flattening it with wet/dry sand paper but it didn't seem to respond much. Maybe its too hard and low grit. It has worked at improving an edge once very well but typically not too often. I think it only works on near shaving razors.
Swatys are not easy to lap. You really need a coarser stone to do it. If it's grooved, I wouldn't mess with it. Why put unnecessary hurdles in your way?Put it on Ebay and get another one that looks good. You can get nice Swaty types from Tilly in beautiful condition. She's running a special now where she has a starter set of 3 for $28. Barber hones are used dry, wet or with lather, depending on how aggressive you want it to be. The order I gave was for decreasing aggressivenes. If you're in the middle of shaving and the razor pulls a little, use lather. It's the way my old time barber used to do it. Don't use oil.

The Swaty is intended for refreshing a near shave ready razor. Since it gives a fine finish and is relatively fast, you can also use it for finishing if you're careful.

142...Should I use a Swaty dry and is it ok if its got little groove worn into it? See above. Don't mess with it. It's a false economy.

So for today, the Norton and one of my blades with just small nicks in it...this one is stainless I think so it may take awile...but I'll lap the Norton first and try some work on it. This one has given me some great shaves at one point but I seemed to have lost the edge on it. I find it hard to know when the razor is good, I have overhoned in the past. I'll work on the thumb tests, Joe, also.
How coarse is your Carborundum? If you suspect overhoning, a microscope test or thumbnail test will uncover it. If you use the thumbnail you may have to do a little more fine honing to get the edge back, if it's not overhoned.

To help calibrate your thumb, get a fresh razor blade and learn how a sharp edge feels, not only how the edge grabs. When you're first learning you can keep the razor blade around as a guide. Another thing that helps is to test more frequently when you're first learning. You can actually feel the edge sharpening up.

I highly recomment that you go to straightedgerazors.com and do a search in the genral forum for "scratch." There's a great thread on scratch lines that includes microscope shots of an Ebay razor as it progresses through each sharpening stage towards becoming keen.

[Laz in Tampa]

Thanx Laz,

I just finished my honing cycles with the stainless blade on the Norton 4/8. I shaved in the middle of the action to try to keep track of what I was doing. I used about 5 cycles all together. 3-4 passes on the 4,000 and then maybe 20-30 on the 8,000.

You can try reducing the number on the 8000 and test shave. Ain't gonna hurt, trust me.

After I was done I started shaving. I went back to the hone 3 times during the shave which took me about 40 minutes. I remember when it took that long without honing...Atleast by the end of it my face was well prepped. I was able to shave pretty well, not great but no redness and a decent shave. I needed to touch up a little with my well sharpened straight afterwards. In the beginning it pulled and jumped on my face, but after a few cycles got pretty smooth. I was able to use some pressure (whilst shaving), which seems to help me get a closer shave. I assume using pressure while shaving is ok as long as the blade is smooth. Overall I was pretty let down on how easy the whole thing was. Your right about the cycles they have some odd effect on the process.


Wierd about the lower/higher/lower/higher, huh? But it does work...
I know some poeple just lather up and shave, that's the extent to their prep. If you have no problem using pressure on yoru face, then it works for you. I prefer to use less.

I did use some pressure on the hone in the beginning but I noticed that at one point only half the bevel (the half away from the edge) was getting smooth on the 8,000 which I assumed was because of the pressure and so I backed off a little. Gotta love those microscopes. Then most of the bevel started getting smooth.

I may be imagining things but I think the left side of my face got smoother than the right. which makes me wonder about a bevel inbalance of some sort.

I don't know. I aways get a seemingly smoother shave on my right side, and I shave only right handed. I always attributed it to the one handed shaving I do.

I plan on doing a few more cycles on the blade today and shave again in the A.M. It seems like it is very close to shaving very well with only the Norton, which is a great start.


Once you get a bit more practice on the Norton,you'll notice your shave will improve.

I did as you suggested and placed the hone up high near my eye level that helped a little. I think I may start honing standing up instead of sitting. I don't have very good eyesight close in so I may use my reading glasses today.


I like to tell beginners to lay the Norton on something, and use one hand to draw the razor in an X-pattern so they can concentrate on solely the razor.

I'm not the kind of guy who is looking for baby close shaves, just smooth with a reduction in skin tearing I get from modern shaves.

So that moves us to question 141...when is the best sign to stop honing, just shave and then hone and shave and stop when you hit the "best" shave?

When you can cut hairs on your forearm by drawingthe razor in your hair, but above the skin. Thats my personal benchmark.


140...What is the signifigance of the hone "sucking" on the blade? I know thats a good sign but I'm not sure what to do about it. Some have said to stop honing and some say...no keep going...then when do I stop?


Try on your own. There are so many different razor grinds, different "feel" we all have on how we hold the razors. If you get the sucking feeling, I suggest strop and test shave. See if that is a benchmark for you.

139...I'm a tad confused on the Swaty. Not that I'm using it but I'm just curious...it is a hard stone that cuts fast? I thought it cut slow...

My experience shows it is a slow cutter, because it is a very fine grit stone. But then again, they should be used as a touch up only, restoring a bevel will take you a few generations....

138...if I do have some kind of inbalance in the bevel should I try to hone it more on one side than the other? Both sides seemed to push water off the Norton so I'm tempted to just press with my game plan.

Look at the water in front of the blade as you hone. If the edge is truly flat on the hone, then it is as true as it can get. If there are any gaps in the water, like water is seeping under the blade, then more honing to get the bevel flat is needed.

137...you use some pressure when you shave? Seems to work as long as I remove all the little nicks

I like to use as little pressure as will cut whiskers. But then again,there is always the hollows on the sides of my Adam''s Apple that need a bit of extra pressure and angle to get smooth, so YMMV.

136/135...after I got done lapping the Norton there were still some black streaks in both sides. I assume thats steel residue. I suppose I should remove all that too right? Does the wet/dry sandpaper need to be replaced after each use?

Yes, the black sreaks are steel particles. I find my Norton works best when it has a clean surface to work with. You don't have to lap on sandpaper each time, a plastic or nylon souring pad will work fine. Wet/Dry sandpaper will work as long as it is intact. If the sand particles get rubbed off, then the paper will disintigrate with use, so just wet the counter, andlay your sheet flat again. But do make sure you rinse the sheet of after using it.

Sorry, as I said my question aren't in any particular order...


No problem, ask away!

[Joe Lerch]

I just finished my honing cycles with the stainless blade on the Norton 4/8. I shaved in the middle of the action to try to keep track of what I was doing. I used about 5 cycles all together. 3-4 passes on the 4,000 and then maybe 20-30 on the 8,000. After I was done I started shaving. I went back to the hone 3 times during the shave which took me about 40 minutes. I remember when it took that long without honing...Atleast by the end of it my face was well prepped. I was able to shave pretty well, not great but no redness and a decent shave. I needed to touch up a little with my well sharpened straight afterwards. In the beginning it pulled and jumped on my face, but after a few cycles got pretty smooth. I was able to use some pressure (whilst shaving), which seems to help me get a closer shave. I assume using pressure while shaving is ok as long as the blade is smooth. Overall I was pretty let down on how easy the whole thing was. Your right about the cycles they have some odd effect on the process.
All of that back and forth is the reason you need to develope your thumb. You want to have a high probability that you won't need to go back to honing after shaving.

Being an experienced DE shaver, I can say unequivocally that str8 shaving requires some (not a lot) pressure. Once the razor is shaving pressing harder to shave closer has a negative effect. You beging removing skin and producing irritation. So, as a general rule I try to minimize pressure, even if it means doing an extra pass or touchup. Another thing is the blade angle. It seems to be written in stone that the angle should be 30 degrees. I use the DE approach. I find the flattest angle that will cut and back off slightly. It might require a little more stretching, but for me it allows close shaving with minimum pressure.

I did as you suggested and placed the hone up high near my eye level that helped a little. I think I may start honing standing up instead of sitting. I don't have very good eyesight close in so I may use my reading glasses today.
I read somewhere, I think it was the straightrazors site that the height of the hone affects which end of the blade you hone more. That suggests that for each person there's a height that's just right. Why not experiment?

question 141...when is the best sign to stop honing, just shave and then hone and shave and stop when you hit the "best" shave?
When the razor grabs on the thumb test (and you can feel the edge), go to the strop, then shave. Or look in the microscope at 100x. If the edge looks straight and the fin is continuous, strop and shave.

140...What is the signifigance of the hone "sucking" on the blade? I know thats a good sign but I'm not sure what to do about it. Some have said to stop honing and some say...no keep going...then when do I stop?
It is good. It shows that the sides of the edge are getting smooth. It means the scratch lines are small, which should result in less friction against the skin. It doesn't mean that the fin is straight and continuous (usually that's the case), so I can't agree that it's a sign to stop. Let's just say it's a good sign and that you should do another test (thumb, microscope) to confirm completeness.

139...I'm a tad confused on the Swaty. Not that I'm using it but I'm just curious...it is a hard stone that cuts fast? I thought it cut slow...
It's fine , hard and fast. If you do the search at straighedgerazors.com, you'll find another thread in which there are microscope shots of different hones. The Swaty seems to have a rough terrain even thought the grit is very fine.
138...if I do have some kind of inbalance in the bevel should I try to hone it more on one side than the other? Both sides seemed to push water off the Norton so I'm tempted to just press with my game plan.
I'm not sure if it would make a difference, but it can't hurt to make the two sides of the edge the same width.

137...you use some pressure when you shave? Seems to work as long as I remove all the little nicks See above.
136/135...after I got done lapping the Norton there were still some black streaks in both sides. I assume thats steel residue. I suppose I should remove all that too right? Does the wet/dry sandpaper need to be replaced after each use? I find that the easiest way to clean the stone is with a pumice stone and water. You can get a good one from classicshaving.com, and it has universal use, including conditioning the surface of a strop.

There's so much information here that it might makesense at some point to compile the questions and answers into a document.

[Laz in Tampa]

It's fine , hard and fast. If you do the search at straighedgerazors.com, you'll find another thread in which there are microscope shots of different hones. The Swaty seems to have a rough terrain even thought the grit is very fine.

The "terrain" doesn't cut the steel off of a blade, Joe, the "peaks" is what does it. The actual abrasive that touches the steel. Ever see a DMT diamond hone, with the little circles of plastic slightly recessed in the steel plate that holds the diamonds?

[Joe Lerch]

The "terrain" doesn't cut the steel off of a blade, Joe, the "peaks" is what does it. The actual abrasive that touches the steel. Ever see a DMT diamond hone, with the little circles of plastic slightly recessed in the steel plate that holds the diamonds? This is the microscopic terrain which is the same thing as the peaks. The grit is fine, but the surface is rough and uneven, so you get fine scratch lines and fast material removal. Look at the microscope pictures.

Some stones with a similar grit have a very flat terrain and cut very slowly. So, the terrain seems to be a determining factor.

[Laz in Tampa]

The "roughness" you see is the highs and lows of the surface. I still stick with the logic that it is the abrasive alone, and the valleys of the terrain don't make a difference. It doesn't matter if the peaks are 1 micron or 1 inch above the valleys. What isn't there cannot cut.

Regardless of terrain, two hones with the same size abrasive particles will cut about the same. One can clog faster, but the metal particles honed off in each pass are much smaller than the "valleys", so it is not as if the volume of the valleys/height of the peaks makes a difference.

If the roughness of the terrain was a factor, how do you explain the fact that pasted strops work? The surface of the pasted strops (the medium holding the abrasive paste) is not nearly as strong as a Swaty hone, or any hone for that matter. The medium of the paste wears away with time, much faster than any hone, even a waterstone.

[AFDavis11]

Well Gentlemen,

Luckily questions 134-128 are about stropping... :smile:

134...I've noticed while stropping that at times I hear a screeching sound coming from the razor, sometimes its only on one side, and sometimes it's both sides. Is this a good sign or a bad sign, do I want both sides to screech or neither side to screech

133...Do either of you strop on finer and finer sets of leather for the best shave...or say strop on levi jeans or newspaper as a "final' stropping?

132...Should the razor "pull" on the strop or should it glide easily?

131...Just how many strokes do you both actually pull on the strop before shaving

130...Do you apply cream on your face and then strop?

129...Do either of you strop both before and after shaving?

And finally...

128...Which strop would you consider your favorite? Brand etc...

[Joe Lerch]

The "roughness" you see is the highs and lows of the surface. I still stick with the logic that it is the abrasive alone, and the valleys of the terrain don't make a difference. It doesn't matter if the peaks are 1 micron or 1 inch above the valleys. What isn't there cannot cut.

Regardless of terrain, two hones with the same size abrasive particles will cut about the same. One can clog faster, but the metal particles honed off in each pass are much smaller than the "valleys", so it is not as if the volume of the valleys/height of the peaks makes a difference.

If the roughness of the terrain was a factor, how do you explain the fact that pasted strops work? The surface of the pasted strops (the medium holding the abrasive paste) is not nearly as strong as a Swaty hone, or any hone for that matter. The medium of the paste wears away with time, much faster than any hone, even a waterstone.

What can I say? It's pretty well accepted that a Swaty is a fast fine hone, good for touchups but not really finishing. And there are similarly fine hones that are slow. When the pictures are considered, there is a direct relationship between roughness of the terrain and how fast something cuts. I didn't make it up. They're pictures of physical objects showing features that account for the differences in performance. Here's a link http://www.straightedgerazors.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49&highlight=scratch.

I can think of a possible explanation. Suppose you took the fine particles and clustered them to make little plateaus and valleys to simulate a 1K grit pattern. The individual grits would still give fine scratch lines, but the clusters would act like a coarser stone. I don't know if that's an accurate description, but performance and the pictures of the terrain are correllated. And the fact remains that two hones with the same size particles cut at vastly different rates.

[Laz in Tampa]

It's pretty well accepted that a Swaty is a fast fine hone, good for touchups but not really finishing. And there are similarly fine hones that are slow.


I don't know what Swaty you have, but the ones I have, in fact, all the barber hones I have I would consider slow cutting. You are the first one I have ever heard call the Swaty fast cutting.
If they were fast cutting, I could throw away my Norton 220/1000, DMT 1200 grit hone, etc.

[Laz in Tampa]

Well Gentlemen,

Luckily questions 134-128 are about stropping... :smile:

134...I've noticed while stropping that at times I hear a screeching sound coming from the razor, sometimes its only on one side, and sometimes it's both sides. Is this a good sign or a bad sign, do I want both sides to screech or neither side to screech

Screech? Never heard that one, but a low scratching noise on some razors, thinner ground ones, I have heard.

133...Do either of you strop on finer and finer sets of leather for the best shave...or say strop on levi jeans or newspaper as a "final' stropping?

I have a strop I made from Handamerican leather, one side plain, the other side the Russian finish. I mostly use the plain side. I don't use any linen for stropping, other do. I won't even *touch* that subject here.... It's a religious level debate, trust me.

132...Should the razor "pull" on the strop or should it glide easily?

Depends on the strop. Some of the newer, Russian finishes are quite slick, and glide right along. I have an old Genco strop that has a very slight "nap" that makes the razor drag a bit.

131...Just how many strokes do you both actually pull on the strop before shaving

Usually 20 per side.

130...Do you apply cream on your face and then strop?
Yep. As I get prep for my shave, the cream goes on first, pit stick, brush my hair, Qtip the water from my ears, then I strop. Another application of some more hot lather, then I put my boxers, socks and pants on, then I shave.

129...Do either of you strop both before and after shaving?

I don't.I just make sure my razor is dry.

And finally...

128...Which strop would you consider your favorite? Brand etc...

I have my own I made. But there is a special place in my heart for my Genco strop, I love Genco/Geneva razors.

[AFDavis11]

Ok, I gotta admit your prep paragraph was interesting but that image of you lathering up and then putting your boxers on has me glad that questions 127 through 122 are about razors :huh:

127...whats your favorite razor?

126...if you had to start all over again tomorrow, but you knew what you know now, which razor would you buy first?

125...what do you think of the 1/2 hollow razors available from T/I, I've heard they are hard to hone but worth a try, any thoughts?

124...what is your opinion on stainless, worth the hassle, what hassle?, or why put up with the hassle?...

123...whats your thought on width...I'm not a big fan of 6/8ths or bigger but that might be my lack of experience (I only own one). ????

122...I'm a big fan of new razors over Ebay...which do you prefer..T/I or Dovo?

121...I'm going to spend the next 3 days watching Ebay and throw all my money on one razor and try to snipe it away from someone, what brand of razor would you suggest I shoot for? (I never said I was ethical :smile: )

[Joe Lerch]

I don't know what Swaty you have, but the ones I have, in fact, all the barber hones I have I would consider slow cutting. You are the first one I have ever heard call the Swaty fast cutting.
If they were fast cutting, I could throw away my Norton 220/1000, DMT 1200 grit hone, etc.
Compared to those hones they're definitely slow, but the Swatey is a fine hone, and compared to other fine hones it's fast.

Who do you trust on hones? Hal Wilson? If so, I'll show you what he says. Just let me know.

[Laz in Tampa]

Who do you trust on hones? Hal Wilson? If so, I'll show you what he says. Just let me know.

I trust my own experiences more than those of other people. Sorry if I am sounding rude, but I am a sceptical kinda guy.

[Joe Lerch]

134...I've noticed while stropping that at times I hear a screeching sound coming from the razor, sometimes its only on one side, and sometimes it's both sides. Is this a good sign or a bad sign, do I want both sides to screech or neither side to screech
I think it's a demon! That's not good. I think we need an exhorcist.

If the razor is full hollow groung it might be some form of "singing." Otherwise I haven't the foggiest.
133...Do either of you strop on finer and finer sets of leather for the best shave...or say strop on levi jeans or newspaper as a "final' stropping? I only strop on leather once. I recall seeing a recent thread at straightedgerazors.com about stropping on newspaper. It was favorable. There was alo a post yesterday at straightrazorplace.com where someone was getting good result stropping on newspaper. I like to use a .5 and .25 strop before leather. It really maximizes the edge.

132...Should the razor "pull" on the strop or should it glide easily? I like the razor to pull a little and I gravitate towards strops that do that. I'll even use a pumice stone on a strop and treat it with dressing to make it a little more resistive.

131...Just how many strokes do you both actually pull on the strop before shavingI don't count, but I'd say it's 20-30.

130...Do you apply cream on your face and then strop?When I arrive at the sink, everything has been done, including my shower. I have hot water in my mug, which I dump and start forming my lather. As soon as I have a little I'll put it on my face to keep it moist and then continue lforming lather.

129...Do either of you strop both before and after shaving?I spray it with Clippercide and then put it away.

128...Which strop would you consider your favorite? Brand etc
My favorite is a two sided Jemico paddle with a stretcher handle. I also use a 4 sided paddle made by Tony Miller. I used to use a Jemico 32 hanging strop, but I hardly use since I got used to paddles.

[Joe Lerch]

I trust my own experiences more than those of other people. Sorry if I am sounding rude, but I am a sceptical kinda guy.
That's fine. I don't think it's rude. You're not the only one these days who doesn't consider it necessary to take into account adverse facts when reaching a decision.

But then you do have all that experience, so maybe you're justified in not wanting to consider objective evidence when you know better. I prefer to look at the evidence and to consider how others with a lot of experience with barber hones characterize them before I reach an opinion.

So, why don't I just leave you to your scepticism and experienced opinion. Those who are interested can do their own factual discovery and decide for themselves, rather than just relying on either of us.

[Laz in Tampa]

But then you do have all that experience, so maybe you're justified in not wanting to consider objective evidence when you know better. I prefer to look at the evidence and to consider how others with a lot of experience with barber hones characterize them before I reach an opinion.

Funny how you say I dont want to consider objective evidence, but you are doing the same thing by disregarding my opinion, which is based on my real life experiences, what I have proven to myself. I guess I dont qualify as "others with a lot of experience with barber hones". Sounds like anyone else with experience is a more credible source, so long as it agrees with your opinion.

So, why don't I just leave you to your scepticism and experienced opinion. Those who are interested can do their own factual discovery and decide for themselves, rather than just relying on either of us.


So why is my "experienced opinion" different than someone who agrees with you? Because you disagree with it? Is My "factual discovery" that a Swaty is a slow cutting hone for me really is just an "experienced opinion"? Strange...

[Joe Lerch]

Funny how you say I dont want to consider objective evidence, but you are doing the same thing by disregarding my opinion, which is based on my real life experiences, what I have proven to myself. I guess I dont qualify as "others with a lot of experience with barber hones". Sounds like anyone else with experience is a more credible source, so long as it agrees with your opinion.



So why is my "experienced opinion" different than someone who agrees with you? Because you disagree with it? Is My "factual discovery" that a Swaty is a slow cutting hone for me really is just an "experienced opinion"? Strange...
I wasn't talking about opinion or what someone said. I directed you to actual results of experiments and microscope photos. I think that's a little different than what someone said. Did you look at those?

Talking about what someone says based on experience. Hal Wilson has more barber hones than anyone except maybe Tilly, and he's been using them for everything from initially setting up edges to finishing for years. I would tend to trust what he says about barber hones. You said you never heard anyone else consider the swaty as fast, let's see.

In a barber hone thread on straightrazorplace (Yahoo), Hal said:

***
From: "Hal" <bardosein@...>
Date: Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:20 am
Subject: Re: Honing Stones

Yes there are a few that cut faster and quite fast, but they are the
exception and are most likely much coarser grit hones, like the
Achorite combo that I use to set up edges (keep an eye out for one of
these as they do come up on ebay occasionally) or the ceramic style
Swaty type hones. They are fine grit but were not originally intended
for finishing ...
***

I don't think we have a difference of opinion. I was offering the results of experiments that formed the basis for something I said and you were offering an experienced opinion to challenge it. It's like showing a photograph from space to support the statement that the earth is not flat and having it countered by the opinion of someone who's walked to work every day for 50 years and has clearly observed that the earth is flat. He knows better. Experience counts for a lot, but it doesn't trump objective evidence.

If the flat earth person was not interested in looking at the photos, what could I say? OK, you're right? And if someone came and argued my way on a similar same basis as the flat earth person, I couldn't disagree, but i wouldn't offer that in place of my pictures.

We really don't have anything to talk about. I agree that you have an experienced opinion and you don't want to look at experimental evidence that supports what I said. Why don't we just move on?

[Laz in Tampa]

Joe, do you have and or use a Swaty?

[Rik]

Ok, I gotta admit your prep paragraph was interesting but that image of you lathering up and then putting your boxers on has me glad that questions 127 through 122 are about razors :huh:

127...whats your favorite razor?

126...if you had to start all over again tomorrow, but you knew what you know now, which razor would you buy first?

125...what do you think of the 1/2 hollow razors available from T/I, I've heard they are hard to hone but worth a try, any thoughts?

124...what is your opinion on stainless, worth the hassle, what hassle?, or why put up with the hassle?...

123...whats your thought on width...I'm not a big fan of 6/8ths or bigger but that might be my lack of experience (I only own one). ????

122...I'm a big fan of new razors over Ebay...which do you prefer..T/I or Dovo?

121...I'm going to spend the next 3 days watching Ebay and throw all my money on one razor and try to snipe it away from someone, what brand of razor would you suggest I shoot for? (I never said I was ethical :smile: )

Greetings,

Sorry your thread got hijacked. :frown: You're questions are well thought out and with Laz's responses will provide an excellent reference for those interested in diving into the realm of straight razor shaving!

[Laz in Tampa]

Sorry, I musta missed this one....


Ok, I gotta admit your prep paragraph was interesting but that image of you lathering up and then putting your boxers on has me glad that questions 127 through 122 are about razors :huh:

127...whats your favorite razor?

I like ........Ha, aint that easy to pick just ONE.... In fact, I CAN'T just pick only one! There are many, many good razors out there. Genco/Geneva, Wade and Butcher, Red Imps, Filarmonica, Dovo, Robesons..... I could go on and on...

126...if you had to start all over again tomorrow, but you knew what you know now, which razor would you buy first?

Thats a hard one, I got a lot of favorties! I really don't think I can answer that one!

125...what do you think of the 1/2 hollow razors available from T/I, I've heard they are hard to hone but worth a try, any thoughts?


Never used one so I can't really say. But TI does have a pretty good reputation.

124...what is your opinion on stainless, worth the hassle, what hassle?, or why put up with the hassle?...

Worth the hassle. Or maybe not... A bit more patience is needed to hone them, but I have some SS that shave very well.

123...whats your thought on width...I'm not a big fan of 6/8ths or bigger but that might be my lack of experience (I only own one). ????

The bigger the better! Gimme all your meat choppers! Actually, in practical real life experience, anything from 5/8 to 7/8 is a good practical everyday razor. I like the razors that have some "heft" in my hands.

122...I'm a big fan of new razors over Ebay...which do you prefer..T/I or Dovo?

Dovo. I don't have any TI's.

121...I'm going to spend the next 3 days watching Ebay and throw all my money on one razor and try to snipe it away from someone, what brand of razor would you suggest I shoot for? (I never said I was ethical :smile:


First off, sniping is perfectly ethical. (Except if you snipe me..., jk) It boils down to who has the highest bid. You can spend lots and lots of money on "cult status" razors. Dubl-Duck Wonderedges, Puma's, Case and Winchesters. Filarmonicas, and the list goes on. Cult razors are those that have inflated prices due to percieved superiority. Wonderedge prices went throught the roof after Lynn Abrams shaving video.
If you have any you are looking at right now, private mail me and let me know the auction #'s, I will give you my opinions on them.


You sure werent kidding about 148 questions! Ha, fire away, I don't mind answering them. (You just gotta send me your freshly sniped Ebay prize before I answer question #1)

[Joe Lerch]

Joe, do you have and or use a Swaty?
Yes and a few Swaty type hones. I'm trying to get a two line but they seem to be a lot more rare t han the three. Hones have become a side collection, and I enjoy experimenting with them.

I use the Swaty for a quick touchup when I pick up a razor and it's in need of refreshing. I don't feel confident enough with it to use it as a finishing hone. Something slower is easier to use. After the Swaty, I can go for a few on the strop and shave right away. But if I have time, I'll use the .5 and .25 pastes.

[Joe Lerch]

Ok, I gotta admit your prep paragraph was interesting but that image of you lathering up and then putting your boxers on has me glad that questions 127 through 122 are about razors :huh: I'm sorry. I got so carried away with Laz that I missed your post.

Rik made me snap out of it. I just don't want to give the wrong impression. Laz and I have a prior history of disagreeing. But I don't find him disagreeable in any way. I actually like him and enjoy communicating with him. We just have a unique way of communicating and occasionally get caught up. I apologize for hijacking your post

127...whats your favorite razor?The Feather Artist Club. And then there are a whole bunch of str8s. The silver steel TIs (including the SRP razor) are at the top of the list, followed by the 6/8 and up Fillys and frioudors and my Bergischer Lowe. They are something special.

126...if you had to start all over again tomorrow, but you knew what you know now, which razor would you buy first?I need to explain that I've been a DE shaver for over 40 years, while I'm relatively new to str8s. I have a DE collection, I love DEs and I still use them. I'll assume that my history of DEs would not have been different. I would buy the Feather first, because for me the transition to it would have been a piece of cake, based on the DE experience. The only thing is I don't know if I would have ended up with str8s if I did that. Of course if I knew how much I enjoy the whole str8 experience (including the collecting), there's no question I would have. The frst str8 I would buy is a 6/8 Eagle Brand (TI).

125...what do you think of the 1/2 hollow razors available from T/I, I've heard they are hard to hone but worth a try, any thoughts?I love the TIs, but I think all of mine are full hollow. I've never tried the half hollow. But after my experience with TIs, I can only assume they're excellent.

124...what is your opinion on stainless, worth the hassle, what hassle?, or why put up with the hassle?...I don't find stainless to be a hassle. But I only find the friurdors (frozen ss) to be exceptional.

123...whats your thought on width...I'm not a big fan of 6/8ths or bigger but that might be my lack of experience (I only own one). ???? I love the bigger razors, but the main reason other than the heft is my size, not my beard. The Feather has the heft of a bigger razor, and I like that.
122...I'm a big fan of new razors over Ebay...which do you prefer..T/I or Dovo? I find the silver steel TIs to be exceptional. I have four or five Dovos, and the only one I find to be exceptional is the Bergischer Lowe.

121...I'm going to spend the next 3 days watching Ebay and throw all my money on one razor and try to snipe it away from someone, what brand of razor would you suggest I shoot for? I snipe all the time and I don't consider it unethical. There's no reason for me to waste my time entering bids on Ebay. Besides, nothing stops the other guys from sniping. These days I'm looking for a razor that's a little different and rare. I'd like to get a Wonderedge, or one of those black Dorkos with the pearl band, or a beautiful Puma (the type in the "wooden" box), but they're all so expensive these days.

[Joe Lerch]

You can spend lots and lots of money on "cult status" razors. Dubl-Duck Wonderedges, Puma's, Case and Winchesters. Filarmonicas, and the list goes on. Cult razors are those that have inflated prices due to percieved superiority. Wonderedge prices went throught the roof after Lynn Abrams shaving video.

That's funny. You picked a few of my picks as cult razors. I don't understand why they're so expensive. I picked the Wonderedge, Puma and Dorko, because their looks caught my fancy. I even bought a black Bismark as a compromise on the Dorko. Of the bunch you mentioned, I only find the Filarmonicas to be special. They really seem to shave better.

[randydance062449]

Hello Alan,

You have received some pretty good info from these guys! :smile:

The only thing I would emphasize is to first get that nick out of the blade.
I have to agree that using the 4000 Norton is the slow way to remove a nick. If you have a 800-1200 grit hone I would use that to remove the nick. However I would also put some tape on the spine first to reduce the evidence of wear.
The resulting bevel will be a little "off" but the 4000 Norton hone will quickly wear the angle of the bevel back to "normal". To see this process just use your microscope and note the change in colors on the bevel.

After removing the nick look at the bevel and pay attention to the color and scratch pattern on the bevel.

Remove the tape and put 25 laps on the 4000 Norton. Then look at the bevel again. You will probably see a lighter color at the very edge and a darker color below that. The darker color is the new scratch pattern from the 4000 hone. Continue with the 4000 until the bevel looks all one color and scratch pattern.
Now you have a new bevel.

From that point you can start using the 8000 hone either in a pyramid type approach or a straight progression of grits.

JUST BE CONSISTENT IN THE APPROACH USED!! That the only way you will learn what the approach requires.

Just my two cents,

[Rik]

Welcome to B&B Randy! I look forward your future posts. Have a good one.

[Rik]

*Created new thread (Honing out nicks) for question I posted here*

[AFDavis11]

Hey Randy,

Don't let the title throw you...were having some fun in here. The game is I get to ask Laz a question and he gets to answer with his opinion. And ofcourse we get other input as well. Either way I get to learn more about shaving and maybe so do others. So, feel free to join in...

Laz,

I'm getting great results. Things are going well, with the exception of one razor. The dang stainless. Still a honing nightmare for me. So...

120...When you think of stainless razor honing, whats the first couple of things that come to your mind, any different techniques or ideas?

119...On general honing, do you think of honing as simply sharpening an edge to perfection or do you think of honing as "putting on and polishing "the fin" ?

118...If you overhone a razor do you back hone on a 4,000 or 8,000 and start all over again, or do you back hone on a higher grit and just try to take it back a touch and then hone back into it gently....? Sorry that might not make sense...but

Thats it for tonight...I think my shaves are getting too close... :wink:

[Laz in Tampa]

Laz,

I'm getting great results. Things are going well, with the exception of one razor. The dang stainless. Still a honing nightmare for me. So...

120...When you think of stainless razor honing, whats the first couple of things that come to your mind, any different techniques or ideas?


Generally, SS is harder than carbon steel, so do a little more of what you have been doing as far as honing goes. Try 50% more strokes for each grit hone or paste you use. Test after that.

119...On general honing, do you think of honing as simply sharpening an edge to perfection or do you think of honing as "putting on and polishing "the fin" ?

The best shaving razors for me, under a microscope, show just a perfect bevel. No fin, but just a perfectly flat, straight and even bevel, and the edge disappears into perfect nothingness.

118...If you overhone a razor do you back hone on a 4,000 or 8,000 and start all over again, or do you back hone on a higher grit and just try to take it back a touch and then hone back into it gently....? Sorry that might not make sense...but

Thats it for tonight...I think my shaves are getting too close... :wink:

I find it easier for me to go back to the next lowest grit. Others like to backhone a few strokes, or run the edge through a wooden matchstick or balsa wood.

[AFDavis11]

Wow, nice reply to that one...got me thinking a lot with this stuff...

117....This one is kinda hard and sorta silly so I apoligize up front. But..

Can you, in detail, describe how you run a blade along the Norton, how you hold it and what you are thinking about? I want to have a picture of how you hold the blade, where you want to put your fingers and what your general attitude is. I've seen everything from guys looking like their painting the side of a house to guys looking like they are trying to shave the hone with an explosive razor. I used one finger on the back of the blade, not touch the top of the shank, and I've done some house painting...I've gotten some results with all the methods but would like a picture of your preference (and I don't mean a pic, just words that describe what you do)

Thanx, I gotta tell you this one on one tuturing thing is REALLY helping me a lot. I think others will find it helpful someday too.

Your perspectives are just different enough to provide me with some great background data...and some outstanding results.

The shave I got last night was jaw dropping (and even its smooth :smile: )

[Joe Lerch]

The best shaving razors for me, under a microscope, show just a perfect bevel. No fin, but just a perfectly flat, straight and even bevel, and the edge disappears into perfect nothingness.

I call it a fin, because that's what I see it called on the boards, but I think it's more commonly referred to as microserrations. It's the termination of the scratch lines at the very edge of the blade. In other words, it's there on every honed blade.

If you don't see it it's because you're not using enough magnification. I can just make them out at 200x. They look like a thin, brighter tiny band at the edge. I think the difference in brightness is some kind of optical artifact. I've been online at knife sights where they show them at 1000x with an electron microscope, so the artifacts are removed, and they do look like tiny serrations. The finer grits used with a razor would just produce smaller microserrations. I don't know how fine you can go. I assume the crystalline structure of the steel presents a limit. After using a 12K stone, the microserrations look like little pins at 200x.

In any case, the fact that you like the edge perfectly straight confirms my belief that you're probably looking at 60x, maybe 100x. Even at 100x a keen edge doesn't look perfectly straight.

It also depends on when you look. I've found that stropping makes the microserrations more pronounced at 200x. We've always been told that stropping aligns the microserrations. What I think it means is that it stands them up if they're a little bent outward. That would make them seem a little taller.

[Rik]

Wow, nice reply to that one...got me thinking a lot with this stuff...

117....This one is kinda hard and sorta silly so I apoligize up front. But..

Can you, in detail, describe how you run a blade along the Norton, how you hold it and what you are thinking about? I want to have a picture of how you hold the blade, where you want to put your fingers and what your general attitude is. I've seen everything from guys looking like their painting the side of a house to guys looking like they are trying to shave the hone with an explosive razor. I used one finger on the back of the blade, not touch the top of the shank, and I've done some house painting...I've gotten some results with all the methods but would like a picture of your preference (and I don't mean a pic, just words that describe what you do)

Thanx, I gotta tell you this one on one tuturing thing is REALLY helping me a lot. I think others will find it helpful someday too.

Your perspectives are just different enough to provide me with some great background data...and some outstanding results.

The shave I got last night was jaw dropping (and even its smooth :smile: )

Don't leave us in suspense! What are the remaining 116 questions? :confused1

[Laz in Tampa]

Wow, nice reply to that one...got me thinking a lot with this stuff...

117....This one is kinda hard and sorta silly so I apoligize up front. But..

Can you, in detail, describe how you run a blade along the Norton, how you hold it and what you are thinking about? I want to have a picture of how you hold the blade, where you want to put your fingers and what your general attitude is. I've seen everything from guys looking like their painting the side of a house to guys looking like they are trying to shave the hone with an explosive razor. I used one finger on the back of the blade, not touch the top of the shank, and I've done some house painting...I've gotten some results with all the methods but would like a picture of your preference (and I don't mean a pic, just words that describe what you do)


Sorry about the delay, I had a short vacation this past weekend,
My best results with the Norton have been by placing it on something on a table, so when I sit at the table, it is about high chest or neck area. I use one hand on the shank of the razor, and concentrate on keping the razor balanced and even across the hone, as I drag it off in an X-pattern. I try to use as light a pressure as possible while still keeping the razor flat on the hone. This is for final honing, not edge restoration.

[Joe Lerch]

I drag it off in an X-pattern.
I keep seeing questions about this with no real answer: Why do you use the x-pattern? I have a 3" stone and the result looks exactly the same as the x-pattern microscopically if you hone straight across the stone with a heel leading tilt.

I researched this and have found no answer. To me it seems historical because only small, narrow stones were used by barbers.

[Laz in Tampa]

I keep seeing questions about this with no real answer: Why do you use the x-pattern? I have a 3" stone and the result looks exactly the same as the x-pattern microscopically if you hone straight across the stone with a heel leading tilt.

I researched this and have found no answer. To me it seems historical because only small, narrow stones were used by barbers.

Here's my answer:
Because I like to. It works for me. It's more of a "works for most blades" kind of answer. Ever try honing a full bellied razor or a rounded edge keeping the blade on the hone the whole time? All you'll get is a flat bellied razor.
Using the X-pattern, you will ensure that the entire length of the razor is scraped uniformly over the honing surface. Not all razors have a perfectly flat and straight edge.

[Joe Lerch]

Ever try honing a full bellied razor or a rounded edge keeping the blade on the hone the whole time? All you'll get is a flat bellied razor. Using the X-pattern, you will ensure that the entire length of the razor is scraped uniformly over the honing surface. Not all razors have a perfectly flat and straight edge.
I don't hone a bellied blade with the x-pattern. I use a kind of pivoting movement on the blade, rotating the blade through an arc while also sliding it. I guess it's a variant of th x-pattern. That's definitely one time it seems necessary to do something other than a straight across pattern.

Have you ever seen a description that says the x-pattern is preferred for ordinary honing? I've seen some that say it doesn't make a difference. That's why I thought it might just be historical. Some German sites show two-handed honing straight across. It might be a little cumbersome using two hands for the x-pattern.

The German method produces a scratch pattern that's perpendicular to the edge, like a machine honed edge. I have seen some references that say an angled scratch pattern is preferred because it gives you a fin that's like the edge of a saw.

I don't have that many wide stones, so I generally use the x-pattern.

[AFDavis11]

Hi, Laz-Thanx

116. Do you ever shave with the blade at a high angle, say 80-90 degrees. It seems that sometimes it helps me get closer if I do this, but I'm not sure. Is it just my imagination? Do you always shave every part of your face at a 30 degree angle.

115. I'm finding the left side of my face is getting a little torn up. Do you use a cross handed technique or do you switch hands and do you find that cross passes damage skin?

114. Any suggestions for under the jaw line, do you raise it up above the jaw line with your opposite hand?

113. On a point tip blade do you hone it at a 90 degree angle (the tip) to prevent cutting your skin?

112. I'm finding the Norton seems to work different after I soak it for about 2 hours. Seems water is coming out of the stone as I hone. Is this better?

111. If I put lather on a stone does that "lower" the grit or slow the cutting action?

110. I'm picking up some important feedback on the strop when I strop a sharp blade, it feels like I can tell its sharp. I can't exactly explain it but it has more pull, it feels like I"m stropping a sharp razor and it sounds different. Any other good feed back clues I can use.

109. I'm still perplexed on when to stop...is this learned from shaving or is there some knowledge involved...I get a good shave and then think, maybe it should be better, subsequent honing makes the razor suck (overhoned). It seems to go from shaving so so..to shaving bad. Never seems to get to just right...any ideas.

108. How can I lap a Swaty?

107. If I have a hone how do I tell what it's grit is and where it should fall in my honing?

BTW...I'm getting pretty good with my Norton now. I used pressure on the last blade and actually saw the edge break under a microscope...I'm beginning to understand the whole "how much pressure when" routine of honing. Thanx

[Joe Lerch]

I'm just going to answer the ones where I can contribute to.

116. Do you ever shave with the blade at a high angle, say 80-90 degrees. It seems that sometimes it helps me get closer if I do this, but I'm not sure. Is it just my imagination? Do you always shave every part of your face at a 30 degree angle.
There's a classical technique for shaving under the nose. It has a French name, which I've forgotten. You hold the blade perpendicular to the skin and rotate it down as you make contact and move down. That lets you get under the nose.

114. Any suggestions for under the jaw line, do you raise it up above the jaw line with your opposite hand?
That's always been a problem for me because I need to shve forward under the jaw to go countergrain. I use the opposite hand and the heel of the blade. It's a little nerve wracking, because I have that big section of the front of the blade projecting out into the air. If I stretch diligently I can shave smoothly without irritation.

111. If I put lather on a stone does that "lower" the grit or slow the cutting action?
You can't change the grit of the stone that way. If you lok at the scratch pattern it will always be the same. But using lather reduces the friction and cuts more slowly.

109. I'm still perplexed on when to stop...is this learned from shaving or is there some knowledge involved...I get a good shave and then think, maybe it should be better, subsequent honing makes the razor suck (overhoned). It seems to go from shaving so so..to shaving bad. Never seems to get to just right...any ideas.
There's not a lot of information here, but what I thought of is testing more frequently. As long as the razor is improving, you're doing the right thing. When it stops so should you.

108. How can I lap a Swaty?I use a Little Devil hone (from Tilly), but I've also used 1K sandpaper on a heavy tile.

[Rik]

114. Any suggestions for under the jaw line, do you raise it up above the jaw line with your opposite hand?

Greetings Alan,

After much experimentation, here's what I've found works best for me. I do this area in two passes, both ear to chin.

First pass is for the area on the jawbone. Pull skin taught from above using same side hand (left hand for left side of face). Using opposite hand draw razor from ear to chin just above the jawbone using heal of blade with the toe pointing to the ceiling.

Re lather

Second Pass is for the area just below the jawbone. Pull skin taught at base of neck with opposite hand. Using razor in same side hand (left hand for left side of face) draw the razor ear to chin just below jawbone using the toe of the blade (toe of blade pointing to the floor). The razor must be a round tip for obvious reasons.

Both of these motions will feel very awkward at first. Because of this, If you feel uncomfortable at any point, put the razor down and only retry if your comfort level returns. These are not motions that you want to rush. After time they will become second nature. :smile:

[Joe Lerch]

I do pretty much the same thing as you, but I'm curious why you flip the razor around on the second pass so you end up using both the heel and the toe.

I use three passes, and on the third pass I shave atrip along the jawline and from that I go down on the neck, stretching the skin flat. I find that this last pass cleans the last remnants of stubble off the neck.

[Laz in Tampa]

Have you ever seen a description that says the x-pattern is preferred for ordinary honing? I've seen some that say it doesn't make a difference. That's why I thought it might just be historical. Some German sites show two-handed honing straight across. It might be a little cumbersome using two hands for the x-pattern.



It all boils down to what works for you. Some things just don't seem to make sense, but actually do work. Logically, it makes sense to me that holding a blade entirely on the hone for the full stroke *should* work best, but I personally get best results using the X-pattern.

[Laz in Tampa]

Hi, Laz-Thanx

116. Do you ever shave with the blade at a high angle, say 80-90 degrees. It seems that sometimes it helps me get closer if I do this, but I'm not sure. Is it just my imagination? Do you always shave every part of your face at a 30 degree angle.

I never use that steep of an angle. Sometimes I use a slightly higher angle, 40 at most, for the hollows of my neck.

115. I'm finding the left side of my face is getting a little torn up. Do you use a cross handed technique or do you switch hands and do you find that cross passes damage skin?

I shave only right handed. I never felt the need to tempt fate enough to try to cut my own throat left handed. jk. I only use my right hand. I just don't feel comfortable using my left. I have learned different grips to over come this.

114. Any suggestions for under the jaw line, do you raise it up above the jaw line with your opposite hand?

Yep. My jawline calls for one pass down, and the second across.

113. On a point tip blade do you hone it at a 90 degree angle (the tip) to prevent cutting your skin?

I have a Red Imp that's truly evil. It will cut me just by being in the same room with it, or thinking about shaving with it. But no, I don't dull the tip. The pain from the cut, and the scar, is a lasting reminder to ALWAYS watch where the tip is.

112. I'm finding the Norton seems to work different after I soak it for about 2 hours. Seems water is coming out of the stone as I hone. Is this better?

Some people keep thier Nortons soaked in water even while storing them. Only downside I have heard is that one guy's epoxy gave out and he had to re-glue the two sides together. Does it work better? I dunno. If you notice it working better, then by all means keep them soaked.

111. If I put lather on a stone does that "lower" the grit or slow the cutting action?

Slows the cutting action. The lather acts as a lubricant between the steel and the hone.

110. I'm picking up some important feedback on the strop when I strop a sharp blade, it feels like I can tell its sharp. I can't exactly explain it but it has more pull, it feels like I"m stropping a sharp razor and it sounds different. Any other good feed back clues I can use.

Get a known dull blade and strop it. Then strop one of your "sharp" blades. Learn the difference.

109. I'm still perplexed on when to stop...is this learned from shaving or is there some knowledge involved...I get a good shave and then think, maybe it should be better, subsequent honing makes the razor suck (overhoned). It seems to go from shaving so so..to shaving bad. Never seems to get to just right...any ideas.

Huh, so I ain't the only one who dies this? haha. I still suffer from this malady- know when a good shave is a good shave, and learn to leave well enough alone. Try shaving with a different razor the next day, or shave half your face with two different razors. That's one way you can compare how good a shave a razor gives, and when and if it needs some tune up.

108. How can I lap a Swaty?

With a laser beam or maybe a proton accelerator. Those Swaty's are hard as anything. Wet/dry sandpaper, or -- another Swaty. If you use another Swaty, make sure you do it under some running water.

107. If I have a hone how do I tell what it's grit is and where it should fall in my honing?

Ask away if you have a name of the hone, otherwise you will need to hone on it and then comapre it side by side with a razor honed with a known grit, using a microscope, or if you are feeling brave, shaving with it.
The old barber hones, unfortunately, never really were rated "grit" wise like modern hones are.

BTW...I'm getting pretty good with my Norton now. I used pressure on the last blade and actually saw the edge break under a microscope...I'm beginning to understand the whole "how much pressure when" routine of honing. Thanx

Very good! Making mistakes is part of learning. You gotta remember what works when and when to avoid the "this doesn't work" part.

[Joe Lerch]

I have a Red Imp that's truly evil. It will cut me just by being in the same room with it, or thinking about shaving with it. But no, I don't dull the tip. The pain from the cut, and the scar, is a lasting reminder to ALWAYS watch where the tip is.
Thanks for the warning. I just got one.
learn to leave well enough alone.
An eternal affliction...

[AFDavis11]

Great advice guys,

I'm going to have to re-read this thread a couple of times just to learn all the stuff you guys are teaching me. Lets see...where am I on the list...ok

106. What the heck is a pumice stone for? Hone or strop or both?

105. This morning I concluding that my strop was not positioned correctly. It sits so I hold one end way up high and the other end is way low, it occured to me that the strop should be parallel to the floor to ensure the full weight (even if thats a very little weight) is riding on the strop. Makes sense or am I losing it?

104. Your going camping for 3 months (hiking too) and you want to bring shaving stuff. What would you bring? Lets assume one hone, one razor, and one strop. What would you bring and what would you want to bring that I'm not letting you?

103. I assume you own lots of stuff for shaving. Lets assume you do anyway. What are some of the things that you would like to buy but haven't yet? I'm really not interested in some $8000 Damascus razor. What if anything would you like to get next and why? Stuff in the normal price range that you are interested in but just haven't gotten yet.

102. You accidentally lose all your shaving stuff. Your on a really tight budget but want to be able to shave for the next year. What would you go out and buy IF... you had $50, you had $100, you had $200 and no other money budgeted for shaving for the year.

101. Whats your favorite shave cream preparatory procedure, by product and process? You can skip the boxers part. :blush:

100. Whats your typical daily process for question 101? (as opposed to your favorite procedure) Cream/Soap? Brand? Shave oil?

OK, thats good for tonight...wait last one....

99. It hits you, this guy really is having a hard time catching all the ins and outs of shaving with a straight razor (I get some good shaves, some great, some sucky). Anyway, you decide to mail me one book, resource, one basic reference to read/study. What would that be? Keeping in mind that I get a lot of varied info on websites...one question and 10 answers (and I get confused)...so until YOU write Straight Razor Shaving for Dummies, what book would you send?

Alan

[Joe Lerch]

ok

[QUOTE]106. What the heck is a pumice stone for? Hone or strop or both? It's good for both. The one classic shaving sells is beautiful and flat.
105. This morning I concluding that my strop was not positioned correctly. It sits so I hold one end way up high and the other end is way low, it occured to me that the strop should be parallel to the floor to ensure the full weight (even if thats a very little weight) is riding on the strop. Makes sense or am I losing it? I have seen them used every which way. I once had an old barber who was a master shaver. He used to hold it with about a 15 degree upward slant. I think it's a matther of what feels best. I only used paddles, but when I used a hanging strop i used to use a very steep angle withthe hooked end lower. Assuming the surface of the strop is in good condition, the most important feature is tha you keep it from sagging and rounding the edge.
104. Your going camping for 3 months (hiking too) and you want to bring shaving stuff. What would you bring? Lets assume one hone, one razor, and one strop. What would you bring and what would you want to bring that I'm not letting you? I would take a Feather str8 with a supply of blades.
103. I assume you own lots of stuff for shaving. Lets assume you do anyway. What are some of the things that you would like to buy but haven't yet? I'm really not interested in some $8000 Damascus razor. What if anything would you like to get next and why? Stuff in the normal price range that you are interested in but just haven't gotten yet. I've got more than I can use now. I don't buy anything I don't intend to use. Usually I buy something that catches my interest when I hear or read about it.
102. You accidentally lose all your shaving stuff. Your on a really tight budget but want to be able to shave for the next year. What would you go out and buy IF... you had $50, you had $100, you had $200 and no other money budgeted for shaving for the year. I assume you're not counting a brush and soap. $50: a square of leather from Handamerican ($12); a two-sided barber hone from Ebay (15); a useable razor from Ebay ($20). $100: a used strop ($25); a two-sided barber hone ($15); a nice Ebay razor ($60), or a starter kit form Tony Miller. $200: two sided paddle strop ($30); new TI silver steel ($100); Norton 4/8.
100. Whats your typical daily process for question 101? (as opposed to your favorite procedure) Cream/Soap? Brand? Shave oil? cream (Taylor, Trumpers, AOS, Tabac, Proraso); KOS shave oil for last pass.
99. It hits you, this guy really is having a hard time catching all the ins and outs of shaving with a straight razor (I get some good shaves, some great, some sucky). Anyway, you decide to mail me one book, resource, one basic reference to read/study. What would that be? Keeping in mind that I get a lot of varied info on websites...one question and 10 answers (and I get confused)...so until YOU write Straight Razor Shaving for Dummies, what book would you send? Chris Moss' book.

[Rik]

I do pretty much the same thing as you, but I'm curious why you flip the razor around on the second pass so you end up using both the heel and the toe.

I use three passes, and on the third pass I shave atrip along the jawline and from that I go down on the neck, stretching the skin flat. I find that this last pass cleans the last remnants of stubble off the neck.

I'm able to get under the jaw line better using the toe. I go ear to chin with the flat of the blade tilted 45 degrees from the plane of the floor and the end of the round tip very slightly pressing into my neck. I'd never try it with a spike tip razor!

I've tried both ways and many other approaches and this is what works for me.

[Laz in Tampa]

Great advice guys,

I'm going to have to re-read this thread a couple of times just to learn all the stuff you guys are teaching me. Lets see...where am I on the list...ok

106. What the heck is a pumice stone for? Hone or strop or both?

It can be used for both.

105. This morning I concluding that my strop was not positioned correctly. It sits so I hold one end way up high and the other end is way low, it occured to me that the strop should be parallel to the floor to ensure the full weight (even if thats a very little weight) is riding on the strop. Makes sense or am I losing it?

You're losing it. No, seriously, I really dont think the position or angle of the strop matters. I have seen them used uphill, downhill, and parallel with the floor.

104. Your going camping for 3 months (hiking too) and you want to bring shaving stuff. What would you bring? Lets assume one hone, one razor, and one strop. What would you bring and what would you want to bring that I'm not letting you?

A professional barber. haha. It would be hard to pick *only* one razor. One hone would be a good dual grit barber hone. Strop would be a paddle strop.
After that, definetly a brush and soap....

103. I assume you own lots of stuff for shaving. Lets assume you do anyway. What are some of the things that you would like to buy but haven't yet? I'm really not interested in some $8000 Damascus razor. What if anything would you like to get next and why? Stuff in the normal price range that you are interested in but just haven't gotten yet.

I like interesting razors, not the super-expensive ones, but stuff that has meaning for me, Like blades made in NY, and/or wording, brand names, that have some sort of significance to me.

102. You accidentally lose all your shaving stuff. Your on a really tight budget but want to be able to shave for the next year. What would you go out and buy IF... you had $50, you had $100, you had $200 and no other money budgeted for shaving for the year.

50- a rabbits foot to bring me good luck to find my stuff
100- a psychic to tell me where I lost it.
200- a private eye to find my stuff if the other two fail.

101. Whats your favorite shave cream preparatory procedure, by product and process? You can skip the boxers part. :blush:

First pass- super hot water heated by an immersion heater. I re-lather twice before my first pass. Seconf pass I lather twice with cold water.

100. Whats your typical daily process for question 101? (as opposed to your favorite procedure) Cream/Soap? Brand? Shave oil?

Fav shaving soap is Palmolive lather in a tube.

OK, thats good for tonight...wait last one....

99. It hits you, this guy really is having a hard time catching all the ins and outs of shaving with a straight razor (I get some good shaves, some great, some sucky). Anyway, you decide to mail me one book, resource, one basic reference to read/study. What would that be? Keeping in mind that I get a lot of varied info on websites...one question and 10 answers (and I get confused)...so until YOU write Straight Razor Shaving for Dummies, what book would you send?

Alan
One resourse would be-- a computer with an internet connection. I believe that straight razor shaving is an art, not a science. There are many ways to do the same thing, you just have to find the best answer that works best for you.

[Joe Lerch]

I'm able to get under the jaw line better using the toe. I go ear to chin with the flat of the blade tilted 45 degrees from the plane of the floor and the end of the round tip very slightly pressing into my neck. I'd never try it with a spike tip razor!

I've tried both ways and many other approaches and this is what works for me.
I know what you mean. Using the heel when reaching across with the left hand is quite cumbersome. I've tried it yoour way and it's more comfortable, but I find it harder to control the tip at this sensitive spot.

The bottom line is I can often avoid that stroke altogether if I just shave down with an extremely light touch. I'm able to repeat it if necessary. The key seems to be maintaining good contact with the skin and a continuous cut with the razor.

[AFDavis11]

Can you guys elaborate a little more on #106. So if I were to use a pumice stone on a hone or a strop tomorrow, what on earth would I be doing and what would be the purpose I would be trying to accomplish. Or what would I be trying to fix by using it? Thanx


Let me throw 98 in here while I'm here.

98....I've got several razors now shaving pretty good with just a hone and my practice (with you'alls help). They are shaving pretty good, close to perfect. Shave, no burn, and leave some stubble, even after 4 passes. I am convinced I can get them just a little better. Do you agree? And more germaine to the question. What would you do from here? How would you get them really shaving right from oh so close?

[Laz in Tampa]

Can you guys elaborate a little more on #106. So if I were to use a pumice stone on a hone or a strop tomorrow, what on earth would I be doing and what would be the purpose I would be trying to accomplish. Or what would I be trying to fix by using it? Thanx

Pumice is used to smooth out a rough strop, or maybe you nicked the edge while learning how to strop and need to smooth out that flap of leather. On a hone, it can be used to freshen up the surface, removong all the imbedded metal particles from your honing experiences.
If your strop is smooth, then you probably shouldn't use pumice on it.

Let me throw 98 in here while I'm here.

98....I've got several razors now shaving pretty good with just a hone and my practice (with you'alls help). They are shaving pretty good, close to perfect. Shave, no burn, and leave some stubble, even after 4 passes. I am convinced I can get them just a little better. Do you agree? And more germaine to the question. What would you do from here? How would you get them really shaving right from oh so close?

If they seem to be shaving very well, try changing the way you stretch your skin. That can make a lot of difference. Try stretching from a different direction. Easiest way to test (for me) is to stretch one of my sideburns up, and then shave down. If I feel any stubble after one pass there, I go back to the hone.

[AFDavis11]

Cool thanx,

I went to the stone, the Swaty, for 40 laps. Then to some pasted balsa wood for about 20. It helped dramatically, yet I"m not sure if I'm really impressed with the edge just yet. I'll keep working on all of them. BTW, I stilll hate the stainless blade. I wonder if there is any way to wrangle out the average number of passes you need on a razor to get it sharp...just musing out loud.

I'll work on new directions with the blade as well...I didn't use the best prep either....I better try that as well. You know I really think impatience is a REALLY bad quality when it comes to using straight razors...

[Joe Lerch]

Cool thanx,

I went to the stone, the Swaty, for 40 laps. Then to some pasted balsa wood for about 20. It helped dramatically, yet I"m not sure if I'm really impressed with the edge just yet. I'll keep working on all of them. BTW, I stilll hate the stainless blade. I wonder if there is any way to wrangle out the average number of passes you need on a razor to get it sharp...just musing out loud.

I'll work on new directions with the blade as well...I didn't use the best prep either....I better try that as well. You know I really think impatience is a REALLY bad quality when it comes to using straight razors...
That's a lot of laps with a Swaty. It's meant to be used for refreshing a razor and it's fast. Typically, 4 laps is enough. I don't know what effect 40 would have. Does the razor seem overhoned?

[AFDavis11]

No, it shaved nicely. I did have to use different directions as Laz suggested but I got a nice shave with it. But still, 40 laps didn't seem to have that much effect at all. I was thinking about hitting it with the Norton to get it even sharper.

[Laz in Tampa]

No, it shaved nicely. I did have to use different directions as Laz suggested but I got a nice shave with it. But still, 40 laps didn't seem to have that much effect at all. I was thinking about hitting it with the Norton to get it even sharper.

It's still up in the air which stone has a finer grit, the Norton 8000 or the Swaty. If you do use the Norton 8k, please post what you found about the edge, sharper or duller.

[AFDavis11]

Wooops,

Sorry Laz, I didn't think that would generate so much interest. I ran it about 10 laps over my Carborundum (not sure what grit it is), then 6 laps over .5 this morning. I'll shave with it this morning and tell you what it feels like. This particular blade is old and feels soft. The very tip of the blade doesn't seem to make good contact with the hone. Sad, but it still shaves pretty well. I'll give you a report and then likely move to another blade. I have two that are not shaving well. My World Master 6/8 and that nasty stainless.....

I think I'm just going to keep practicing all this stuff to hone in (no pun intended) my understanding.

I consider the Swaty to be slow but obviously I don't understand the science behind it at all. To me if its smooth it should be slow and if its rough it should be fast. I consider my Carborundum to be "about" 6,000. But thats only because it is smoother than the 4,000 and rougher than the 8,000. I'm probably simplifying too much.

I did need to use pressure for the shave, maybe I'm still not pulling the skin right. I still want to know exactly how sharp I can consistently get a blade. I'm pretty certain I'm not getting it yet.

[AFDavis11]

Just got a fabulous shave...incredible. Soooo smooth and nice. I even shaved off a three day growth of goatee. I stropped once in the middle, and I do prefer using the right hand only. I ran the blade over the Swaty 3 laps in the middle and over the .5 just to see what it would do and it seems to be even a little better. Did the entire 3rd pass without cream and it was very smooth and comfy (one of my tests) Very exciting, I suppose I'll now put this one away and attack the stainless as I have gotten two great shaves with it so maybe I will allow it out of the closet...instead of into the trash bin.

So now I have a Fox razor shaving great...and a razor that I don't know the brand of (it has a bamboo style scale). Now on to the two Dovos, maybe the World Master first or maybe the stainless. mmmmmm. Any votes out there...lol

This thread is helping me out immensly, I thought I was going to be relegated to pasted strops forever...

[AFDavis11]

Well not that it is my turn to speak again but I went out looking for Goop to clean up my strop and couldn't find any. I purchased a product called GoJo that seems very similar. I applied it to my strop and it seems to have beautified and softened the strop up very nicely. I'll post my results of the shave tomorrow. The strop just feels soooooo much nicer now. I spent some time with the .5 balsa strop and smoothed the edges of the blades nicely.

[AFDavis11]

I was able to hone up that stainless in 10 min with the Carborundum, hit it with .5 paste on balsa wood and got the best shave of my life this morning. Woooo Hoooooo....on to the World Master next...

[Joe Lerch]

I was able to hone up that stainless in 10 min with the Carborundum, hit it with .5 paste on balsa wood and got the best shave of my life this morning. Woooo Hoooooo....on to the World Master next...
Nice going! Is the carborundum a barber hone? If so, what's the number on the side.

[AFDavis11]

I think it is a barber hone but there is no number on the side that I can find

[Joe Lerch]

I think it is a barber hone but there is no number on the side that I can find
I see. All the carborundum barber hones I've seen have a model number on one of the long edges.

[Laz in Tampa]

I have a Carborundum model 201 that is a combo hone. It is smaller than a Swaty sized hone, and has no markings on it. The box it came in says it is a model 201. It says it is a Carborundum-Aloxite combination razor hone.

[Joe Lerch]

I have a Carborundum model 201 that is a combo hone. It is smaller than a Swaty sized hone, and has no markings on it. The box it came in says it is a model 201. It says it is a Carborundum-Aloxite combination razor hone.
That one sounds interesting. I'm trying to get some coarseer barber hones. How would you describe the coarse side of this one?

[Laz in Tampa]

Coarser then the smooth side, but still overall a fine grit. I have searched for a "coarse" barber type hone for edge restoration, and I think that our forefathers probably didn't see the need to manufacture what could be had naturally and worked fine-- Arkansas stones.

[Joe Lerch]

Coarser then the smooth side, but still overall a fine grit. I have searched for a "coarse" barber type hone for edge restoration, and I think that our forefathers probably didn't see the need to manufacture what could be had naturally and worked fine-- Arkansas stones.
I'm looking for the same thing.

The problem with the Arkansas stone is that you need to use oil.

I have a frictionite two sided hone where the coarse side is still pretty fine, but can reastore but not create an edge. The finest diamond hone can create the edge, but it requires to much work with any barber hone to bring it to the point where I can use a finishing hone. The cushion strop hone is fast but still not fast or coarse enough.

I need something like a 3-4K stone, but so far, no luck.

[AFDavis11]

Mine came with the original box and says No. 103 inside the box...that help? Any idea what grit that makes this one?

[Joe Lerch]

Mine came with the original box and says No. 103 inside the box...that help? Any idea what grit that makes this one?
I have no idea what the numbers mean. I just wanted see if it was one of the hones I have.

[AFDavis11]

Is it?

[Joe Lerch]

No. My carborundums seem to be a little coarser than other barber hones. How about yours?

[AFDavis11]

Yes, absolutely I like its size and grit and speed, seems to be a great all around hone to me. A little gritty and yet very smooth.

[AFDavis11]

My razors are all shaving really well now...perhaps they are at the best possible or perhaps not

98. Is it possible to overhone a razor using just .5 paste and is this the most sensible approach to attempting to get the razor really, really sharp?

97. Should I consider .25 paste?

96. What is an inexpensive hone I can buy new or new old stock to take a razor from shaving great to shaving wow...like 12,000 grit and above or higher? I'm looking for a specific name...

95. Do you strop in the middle of a shave?

94. Do you stretch the skin around your chin? I can't decide if thats helping or hurting and whether I should keep doing that. Or just stretch it a little...am I trying to make a flat surface or raise the whiskers a little.

93. That neck area isn't getting very close, any suggestions? I can live with it but thought Id ask

92. Whats your favorite shaving soap?


Ok, thats it for now, the stainless is shaving great btw and so are all the others.

I'm considering a 1/2 hollow razor next, any thoughts?

Now with very sharp blades each shave is getting better and better just due to practice...pretty cool.

[Laz in Tampa]

My razors are all shaving really well now...perhaps they are at the best possible or perhaps not

98. Is it possible to overhone a razor using just .5 paste and is this the most sensible approach to attempting to get the razor really, really sharp?

Pastes are a preference, like using a certain brand of hone. I encourage experimentation. I did a whole lot of it when starting out. Nothing works on everything all the time, IMHO. I have some razors that shave at a 100% satisfaction level with nothing more than a hone, but some need that extra "oomph" that paste can give. I won't say it is the most sensible approach, but it certainly should be tried if you feel like experimenting with it. Can you overhone with it? I really don't have the answer to that one. I don't use pastes exclusively, or even half the time. Just when a hone don't seem to get a certain razor to my satisfaction. You might consider some "Black Diamond" paste from www.handamerican.com It comes in 6 and 1.8 micron grit sizes, which are about the 4000 and 14,000 grit range.

97. Should I consider .25 paste?

Yes, why not. Get some .5 and .25 in the same shipment, save on shipping.

96. What is an inexpensive hone I can buy new or new old stock to take a razor from shaving great to shaving wow...like 12,000 grit and above or higher? I'm looking for a specific name...

Get with Tilly, Redtrader99 at yahoo dotcom, or www.redtrader99.com, for a good finishing hone. She bought out the American Hone Company inventory a few years back, she has a lot of good stuff. Tell her Laz sent ya.... A Norton 4000/8000 waterstone combo for about 60 bucks is a good setup, too.

95. Do you strop in the middle of a shave?

Not in the middle, but between the with and against the grain shavings.

94. Do you stretch the skin around your chin? I can't decide if thats helping or hurting and whether I should keep doing that. Or just stretch it a little...am I trying to make a flat surface or raise the whiskers a little.

I stretch my chin skin with funny mouth contortions.

93. That neck area isn't getting very close, any suggestions? I can live with it but thought Id ask

My neck, especially on the right side of my Adams Apple, has always given me problems. Try shaving E-W as best you can.

92. Whats your favorite shaving soap?

I like creams. like Colgate Later (in a tube). A friend sent me some samples of some creams, but I can't remember what they are. Ask in the Shaving Soap room here. You will get a lot of answers to chew on.

Ok, thats it for now, the stainless is shaving great btw and so are all the others.

I'm considering a 1/2 hollow razor next, any thoughts?

Now with very sharp blades each shave is getting better and better just due to practice...pretty cool.


What did you do to get the SS shaving well?

1/2 hollows are great, nice solid feel, but they may take a bit more honing due to the thicker blade.

Glad to hear your shaves are getting better and better, practice makes perfect!

[AFDavis11]

On the stainless I think it was your sugge