Importance of canvas

[loueedacat]

I've been using a four sided paddle strop, three pasted, and am very happy with the results. Just curious - what am I missing in my daily stropping not having a linen side but just leather? Does that mean I need to turn to the .5 chr.oxide side more often than I would if I had a convas and leather traditional strop?

[jlander]

I've been using a four sided paddle strop, three pasted, and am very happy with the results. Just curious - what am I missing in my daily stropping not having a linen side but just leather? Does that mean I need to turn to the .5 chr.oxide side more often than I would if I had a convas and leather traditional strop?

I don't know what the "grit" equivalent is but canvas is more abrasive than linen, which is more abrasive than leather. I believe canvas is not as abrasive as the 0.5 green chrome but do not know for sure. Maybe Joel or mparker762 will chime in, they both are much more knowledgeable than myself.

[mparker762]

I've been using a four sided paddle strop, three pasted, and am very happy with the results. Just curious - what am I missing in my daily stropping not having a linen side but just leather? Does that mean I need to turn to the .5 chr.oxide side more often than I would if I had a convas and leather traditional strop?

Yes. The linen seems to be more aggressive at keeping the edge in shape, and is slightly abrasive as well. It is a fine substitute for chrome oxide for putting that final polish on the edge as the last honing step - it takes more laps than a chrome oxide paddle would, but stropping on a hanger is a lot faster than stropping on a pasted paddle so it all works out. If you watch Alex's honing video where he uses his coticule bout, you'll notice that he uses the linen this way - he follows up the coticule with about 90 laps on the linen.

Used daily some guys can go for months before hitting a paste or hone, some guys can go for up to a year. I tried it once to see how long I could go on one razor without a pasted paddle or hone, and I managed a bit over two months. Though it turns out that I hadn't quite gotten the bevel right on that initial honing (!%$# TI) so that probably threw off the results quite a bit. I'm trying it again with a different (and straight) razor, but I'm only two weeks in...

For daily stropping the linen is slow enough and controllable enough that you can maintain the razor in just the right state of tune for your best results. This really shows up when you're using the same razor every day - remember the "fidelity" rule with the DE guys? For me there there is a certain level of sharpness that is slightly less than squeegee sharp, but that nonetheless gives me my best shaves. Using the linen makes it easy to keep the razor at this exact level of sharpness day in and day out.

I've also made denim- and linen-covered paddles that I plan on experimenting with some more in the future. But so far I think the cotton fabrics are slower than linen, and less durable, but give similar results in the end.

[loueedacat]

Yes. The linen seems to be more aggressive at keeping the edge in shape, and is slightly abrasive as well. It is a fine substitute for chrome oxide for putting that final polish on the edge as the last honing step - it takes more laps than a chrome oxide paddle would, but stropping on a hanger is a lot faster than stropping on a pasted paddle so it all works out. If you watch Alex's honing video where he uses his coticule bout, you'll notice that he uses the linen this way - he follows up the coticule with about 90 laps on the linen.

Used daily some guys can go for months before hitting a paste or hone, some guys can go for up to a year. I tried it once to see how long I could go on one razor without a pasted paddle or hone, and I managed a bit over two months. Though it turns out that I hadn't quite gotten the bevel right on that initial honing (!%$# TI) so that probably threw off the results quite a bit. I'm trying it again with a different (and straight) razor, but I'm only two weeks in...

For daily stropping the linen is slow enough and controllable enough that you can maintain the razor in just the right state of tune for your best results. This really shows up when you're using the same razor every day - remember the "fidelity" rule with the DE guys? For me there there is a certain level of sharpness that is slightly less than squeegee sharp, but that nonetheless gives me my best shaves. Using the linen makes it easy to keep the razor at this exact level of sharpness day in and day out.

I've also made denim- and linen-covered paddles that I plan on experimenting with some more in the future. But so far I think the cotton fabrics are slower than linen, and less durable, but give similar results in the end.

this is very helpful. thanks. pardon the basicness of this question, but does what you said apply to canvas as much as linen [ie not "genuine linen"]?

[mparker762]

this is very helpful. thanks. pardon the basicness of this question, but does what you said apply to canvas as much as linen [ie not "genuine linen"]?

I've got a canvas strop but haven't played with it as much as I want to. But so far it seems much like the other cotton fabrics like denim and twill. The only real difference seems to be speed and durability. Presumably canvas is more durable than denim.

[gglockner]

Not sure if you were asking about canvas or actually refering to linen. I do not have any canvas strops, but do have different linen. Tony Millers linen is more coarse than that off of my vintage strops. IMHO there is no difference and one does not do more or less than the other. I do not think that the linen really has any true abrasive quality to it. Not really sure what it does to the edge. I guess it must polish it a bit since the edge is smoother after using the linen. Have always used it even know there used to be a lot of talk out there that it does nothing.

Glen

[Tony Miller]

There is lots of confusion on canvas/linen/"linen weave" or "linen finish".

Most comercial strops use something other than real genuine linen. My standard material, the white cloth with brown stripes on one side or the other, is a cotton/canvas material and is quite coarse. This does not mean it is more abrasive, it is simply coarse. Most cotton fibers are so heavily processed they loose whatever natural abrasive qualities the fiber may have had. I do have genuine linen as an option, the real mcCoy if you will. It is a very smooth, flat weave and IS said to be abrasive.

Coarsness of weave and abrasiveness of the fibers are two completely different things. I think both real linen and/or cotton/canvas do aid in keeping a razort sharp but you are not really giving up a huge deal with non-linen (canvas) strops or paddles as they were likely choosen for other qualities.....less expensive, more portable, a one tool does it all option, whatever....it's a tradeoff.

[loueedacat]

So Tony, are you saying that if one should consider the true linen option if the desire it to have a more abrasive side to go with the latigo stropping every day?

In other words, true linen does sharpen more than the canvas alternative?

I am currently deciding whether to get your artisan with linen or the artisan with canvas.

[Thebigspendur]

I think if you are looking at abrasives I wouldn't be worried about subtle differences in natural fibers. If you need to hone just use a hone or a pasted strop. If you need the abrasive I don't think most would want to have to do thousands of strokes to get some real benefit. If you do enough strokes just about every substance will eventually be abrasive. Remember the Grand canyon was formed by running water but does that mean you would want to hold the razor over a faucet for a couple hundred years to get some benefit?

[loueedacat]

I think if you are looking at abrasives I wouldn't be worried about subtle differences in natural fibers. If you need to hone just use a hone or a pasted strop. If you need the abrasive I don't think most would want to have to do thousands of strokes to get some real benefit. If you do enough strokes just about every substance will eventually be abrasive. Remember the Grand canyon was formed by running water but does that mean you would want to hold the razor over a faucet for a couple hundred years to get some benefit?

I stare at my razor like it's the Grand Canyon! I have a four sided pasted strop, but have nothing between the green chromium oxide and the leather, so I'm always using the green because just leather stropping only gets me one day wihouth pasted stropping before I miss sharpness. Thought might not have to use the pasted part of the paddle as often if I had a strop with canvas or linen.

[asbjorn]

ouch pointet at this link earlier:
http://www.tzknives.com/razoredges.html

I don't think there is an problem going from green to leather?, no big jump soft of?
But the pictures show that you have very different edge surface regarding to which stone or paste you are using. and look at the difference between 5 or 10 laps on chrome.

[riooso]

I stare at my razor like it's the Grand Canyon! I have a four sided pasted strop, but have nothing between the green chromium oxide and the leather, so I'm always using the green because just leather stropping only gets me one day wihouth pasted stropping before I miss sharpness. Thought might not have to use the pasted part of the paddle as often if I had a strop with canvas or linen.

I think that something is wrong. I have skipped the canvas for a week and really do not see a difference. If you are only getting a day out of a pasted strop I would suggest that your leather stropping is needing some help. I have the a similar setup that you have. I have a 0.25 diamond paste but have made a chromium strop and have been using that. I noticed that off the chromium I can not pass the HHT test but after the leather strop it does. I make it about a week between pasted strops and I like my razors very sharp.

Just a thought,
Richard

[netsurfr]

I have not used the canvas side of my strop since I first strarted shaving with a straight. I use 0.25 diamond followed by newspaper followed by leather. Makes for a very keen edge.

[loueedacat]

I have not used the canvas side of my strop since I first strarted shaving with a straight. I use 0.25 diamond followed by newspaper followed by leather. Makes for a very keen edge.

Do you use the diamond .25 every day?

[loueedacat]

I think that something is wrong. I have skipped the canvas for a week and really do not see a difference. If you are only getting a day out of a pasted strop I would suggest that your leather stropping is needing some help. I have the a similar setup that you have. I have a 0.25 diamond paste but have made a chromium strop and have been using that. I noticed that off the chromium I can not pass the HHT test but after the leather strop it does. I make it about a week between pasted strops and I like my razors very sharp.

Just a thought,
Richard

I couldn't shave off the green either - i do the leather too and get a great sharp edge. It could be my leather technique - I'm too new at this to eliminate anything. But since I'm getting a great sharpness when I'm done, I'm not sure the leather part is the issue because if it was I wouldn't get a good shave at all. I wonder if the blade I have doesn't hold an edge, which would explain needing to resharpen, if my beard is just tough, or if I'm even possibly over sharpening making the dulling go faster.

But it does seem for a long time that people have said linen/canvas and leather every day, so I'm not sure adding the linen/canvas part won't help.

[loueedacat]

ouch pointet at this link earlier:
http://www.tzknives.com/razoredges.html

I don't think there is an problem going from green to leather?, no big jump soft of?
But the pictures show that you have very different edge surface regarding to which stone or paste you are using. and look at the difference between 5 or 10 laps on chrome.


very cool stuff. thanks for the link.

[Thebigspendur]

I think if you are needing to go back to a pasted strop after 5 or 6 shaves something is very wrong there. if your razor is properly honed you should be getting at a minimum 15 shaves no matter how tough your beard is before begin to notice the slightest deterioration in comfort. Many shave for months before needing a touchup on a hone or pasted strop. Maybe your razor is not as sharp as you think it is to begin with eh?

[loueedacat]

I think if you are needing to go back to a pasted strop after 5 or 6 shaves something is very wrong there. if your razor is properly honed you should be getting at a minimum 15 shaves no matter how tough your beard is before begin to notice the slightest deterioration in comfort. Many shave for months before needing a touchup on a hone or pasted strop. Maybe your razor is not as sharp as you think it is to begin with eh?

Maybe. but if i barely touch the edge to my cheek directly because I'm not paying attentiion, I get a nice little paper cut that heals immediately [nice clean cut], and I'm getting great shaves with minimal irritation. I would think that means it's sharp - if it isn't I can't wait to see the shaves I get with a really sharp razor. But I got it in a PIF so I don't know what the honing was like. I just know I love the shaves I'm getting. I'm getting the Le Grelot with the honing option, so that will be a good comparison.

[riooso]

I may be stating the obvious but when you go to the leather it is a very light touch. I have not been able to get over 7 shaves with my razor. I still have the comfort of a good shave but the razor leaves behind some hair. I have a dense beard that would not last longer than a week using a M3 so I do not know if I should expect more. I too, am getting a Le Grelot and we will have something to compare with. I am sure that it will be a good blade of high quality steel.


Lots to learn here,
Richard

[mvforza]

Hi, I too am wondering if the real linen is better than the canvas in terms of abrasive-ness. Got any more info for us Tony?