What hone for a newbie

[papasmurf]

guys as many of you know I am converting to straight razors Now i am stuck with a dilemma what hone to get as my first hone .


I am thinking I should get a high grit stone for a first hone . I know many of you may think this is a mistake and I should probably just get the Norton 4k/8k but I think that if I get a high grit stone at first it will be harder for me to ruin a good blade since the higher grit would take off less metal . My believe is that I would really have to over hone a razor with a high grit stone so I can ruin it is this true ?

any feed back would be great
also I may add that I am looking to spend about $100 for the hone including a flattening stone if needed. and if any of you have a good razor for practice that I may buy from you that would be great . but I am more looking for the stone right now then I am for another razor




Nick

[rickw]

There was a recent thread on the Spyderco UF that sounded promising. No flattening needed. I use a paste. I think that I have .5,3, and 6 micron. Got the paste at handamerican.

[ScottS]

Nick--

I'm in a similar situation. I have some nice ebay finds, no hone, no strop, and no rush. I shave with the Feather AC, and I've been pretty happy.

I'm either gonna go for the Norton 4k/8K, a flattener, and a finishing stone of some sort, or a complete HandAmerican Scary Sharp system. My plan is to learn to hone (I already know what a sharp sharp sharp razor feels like because of the Feather), and then buy a new Dovo Special.

You, though, seem to have a sharp razor, and you want something to touch it up a bit. If I were you, I'd go for the scary sharp system with only one of the leather pads, and the finest grit. That way, you have a nice bench hone that would essentially take the place of a pasted strop, and it would run about the price of a pasted strop (which seems to be what you really need, anyway). It wouldn't cost much more to add a glass plate or two, the film, the glue, and the courser grits later if you like the system. You wouldn't need a flattening plate. If you don't like it, you can just pick up a Norton.

Of course, take this as its meant-- from someone who has yet to even become a novice, who's been reading quite a bit for quite some time. You pick up stuff here and there, but it really isn't a substitute for performing the act!

[joel]

Nick,
Get 4 sided, diamond pasted paddle strop from Tony Miller. Hones are expensive, take way longer to learn, involve more work, and don't work as efficiently. Diamond pasted paddle strops will quickly and easily put a killer edge on a razor. Some fellas complain that the edge doesn't last as long, but it's moot, as the edge you get finishing on .5 or .25 micron diamond paste is going to be WAY finer an edge, and as a result, of COURSE it isn't going to last as long, as there is less metal at the edge, but the end result is a sharper edge/blade. Using hones (and believe me, I've got a lot of them) is superb, but you're not going to get a finer edge than with diamond pastes. I've owned the 30K Shapton Pro, and currently own the 30K Shapton Glass Stone, and the edge they impart is no less forgiving, and doesn't last all that longer than diamond paste... if longer at all. Hell, most fellas with a ton of hones finish on pastes as well (myself included) so why go through all the unnecessary expense?

Think of it like this.... let's say you want to replicate a $66 Tony Miller 4 sided pasted strop with 3 micron, 1 micron, .5 micron, .25 micron diamond pastes with shapton hones....

Using the least expensive route, here's what you'd need....

1.) $50 4000 Grit (3.68 Micron) Shapton Glass Stone
2.) $100 16,000 Grit (.92 Micron) Shapton Glass Stone
3.) $280 30,000 Girt (.48 Micron) Shapton Glass Stone

You're up to $430, and guess what... you still won't have as micro-fine an edge as you would with the $66 Paddle, as the .25 micron diamond paste equates to basically a 60,000 grit hone!

A lot of die-hard straight razor shavers don't like to push diamond pastes... maybe because they create TOO sharp (sometimes harsh) an edge, or the fact that they're incredibly inexpensive, not "natural" and are "high-tech" certainly not as cool as a rare stone from Belgium, Japan, or Germany... but by god, they work, and work amazingly well. If you were to get .5 micron Green Chrome Oxide instead of the .25 micron diamond, then you wouldn't even have the "too harsh" complaint with diamond pastes to deal with, as green chrome leaves a buttery smooth finish, and feels great on your face.

While not as "sexy" as a hone, pasted paddle strops are most certainly the way to go. As an aside, I often sidestep hones all together, and turn to my 9 micron (1500 grit) diamond pasted strop sometimes when I have a really stubborn razor, as it'll establish a bevel, and create a wicked edge ready to be polished in no time flat.

In short - go with pastes. You get 4 hones in 1, there is no long learning curve (you can be a pasted paddle pro in a week of fiddling around), it is incredibly inexpensive, and it's super quick. If you're razor isn't as sharp as you like mid shave, and it seems like it needs just a slight touch up - do a quick 30 strops on .5 micron, wipe any paste residue off the blade (takes 1 second) and do a quick 30 strops on plain leather, and you're back to wicked sharp. For most, you'd only need to do this 1 time a month, if that.

Unless you REALLY want to spend a TON of time and money... pastes are the way to go!

Sorry this is so long... hope it helps! :smile:

[papasmurf]

Joel

I already have a paddle from Tony 2 sides are pasted and the other 2 are not the pastes I have on my paddle are 1 and .5 . my main concern is I will not always just by razors from you that come shave ready with wicked sharp edges but lets say I buy some thing from the bay and it needs some work . wouldn't I be better off with a hone to get the blade ready . I know I can achieve a shaving sharp blade with just the paddle I have established that with one razor I own but I feel it would be a faster process with a hone . Plus as you said the pasted strops do not have the same sexiness to them as the hone does . I am really eager to at least try and use a hone . even if there are cheaper solutions out there . it is just one of those things that I feel I must try at least once .

Damn AD's

[FloppyShoes]

Nick, your question will have as many answers as there are folks replying. The wierdest part is that they all may be correct. Keep in mind also that each "system" will have limitations.

For the average str8 and the average shaver, starting with a blade that has a good bevel, as Joel says, a 4 sided strop (9, 3, 1, 0.5) would work fine.

Personally, I recomend a Norton 4k-8k and a Spyderco UF. This will allow you to do a little more and will last longer (strops must be repasted every so often).

[joel]

Joel

I already have a paddle from Tony 2 sides are pasted and the other 2 are not the pastes I have on my paddle are 1 and .5 . my main concern is I will not always just by razors from you that come shave ready with wicked sharp edges but lets say I buy some thing from the bay and it needs some work . wouldn't I be better off with a hone to get the blade ready . I know I can achieve a shaving sharp blade with just the paddle I have established that with one razor I own but I feel it would be a faster process with a hone . Plus as you said the pasted strops do not have the same sexiness to them as the hone does . I am really eager to at least try and use a hone . even if there are cheaper solutions out there . it is just one of those things that I feel I must try at least once .

Damn AD's

One thing you're forgetting... you aren't going to just buy a hone and get good results. It takes a tremendous amount of incredibly frustrating trial and error (months) to be able to make an ebay special and make it shave worth a damn. Some, heck, many can't even get that far, as they quit/give up. Personally, if I have a razor is really bad condition, or requires a lot of work - it's not even worth my time, energy or frustration to do it, and I'll happily pay someone else to do it, someone who has a lot of equipment, belts, etc. Heck, right now Joe Chandler has 2 W&B's or mine he's restoring/sharpening. What would take me (with quite a few hones) hours and hours - takes Joe no time at all, and isn't very expensive at all.

If you plan on restoring a lot of razors, and working on a lot of razor - by all means endulge, but you've got more time and patience than I :biggrin:

[zman1403]

For what ever it is worth (COMING FROM A ROOKIE) I bought a Kitayama 8000 hone. The razor I aquired was almost shave ready. I intend to learn honing with hones as well as pastes. However having said that, I am hardheaded and very rarely give up on something I want to do. After I get the maintenance of the blade down I then will progress to pastes. Once I get those two methods down I will get into restorations. I consider shaving a chore but the act of learning the best way to shave a hobby. I must admit I did not realize the cost factor associated with straights. I don't think there is a wrong answer (pastes vs hones). It just depends how far you want to get into the chore/hobby. I will let you know how I progress. I also will be buying a paddle and paste from Tony shortly. I will probably be contacting Tony in a day or two. Hopefully some of you guys and Tony can advise me on what are the best selection of pastes for a ROOKIE. I also intend to experiment with the balsa wood (homemade hones).
At this time I also have a Dovo Shavette which will be my gauge.

Thanks to all the guys for your wisdom and GREAT ADVISE. I could not imagine getting into this without the forum.

Good Luck

[Limey]

Look out Tony...there may be a run on your 4 sided pasted strops.

I currently have a Norton 4K/8K and a Belgian Coticle. I have been working with those for a while now and can get pretty good results. I have been working on new razors, ebay junkers and selected good ones. I have had an enjoyable time learning to hone but it does take time and more dollars than a pasted strop.

You need to decide what you want out of this chore/hobby/addiction and then get what fits.

[Suzuki]

+1 on the pasted strop.

I have a Norton 4/8, several barbers hones and I use the pasted strop more than all of the others combined.

Its very easy, very forgiving and very effective - just the other day, I touched up a vintage Rodgers wedge with 20 laps on my .25 diamond side and got an absolutely amazing shave.

The only addition I'm considering getting is a hone with some chromium oxide to try, but that's more out of curiosity than because the diamond pastes aren't working for me.

[kestrel]

I've got a small ceramic 8000 grit hone that I bought from Lee Valley (for you Canadians out there) and a double side paddle strop treated with .5 chromium paste on one side and nothing on the other. All my razors have been flea/antique market buys - none from ebay - so I've been able to stick to undamaged and close to shave ready blades. The set up I described seems to work fine for that.

Graham

[ScottS]

Joel

I already have a paddle from Tony 2 sides are pasted and the other 2 are not the pastes I have on my paddle are 1 and .5 . my main concern is I will not always just by razors from you that come shave ready with wicked sharp edges but lets say I buy some thing from the bay and it needs some work . wouldn't I be better off with a hone to get the blade ready .

Damn AD's

Faster with a hone-- maybe. Faster with a high-grit hone, not likely. If you're trying to get some eBay beaters shave ready, and they're not too bad, a 4K/8K is a fine tool, and you might even choose to go rougher, but not finer-- at least until you've put a serviceable edge on the blade.

[heavydutysg135]

If you want a great hone just to maintain a great edge indefinately I would highly recommend a small coticule. A 6 inch long by 1.5-2 inch wide stone would be great and fairly inexpensive. They can be purchased from classicshaving or theperfectedge.com. A pasted strop is a great option (probably cheaper and a little easier to learn); however, I can see why you want to learn to use a stone. If you want to get into sharpening dull razors then you will need some other grits like a Norton 4K/8K and a lot of patience. As Howard says, it is much easier to keep an edge sharp than it is to get it sharp.

[Owl]

Well, I've been at this a month now, having obtained a lovely Dovo tortoise shell through Joel and the Decant Club store. I was intending on going the pasted strop route, but an unfortunate stropping accident sent the razor skidding off the strop, off the cabinet and on to the floor. A bit of a ding to the tip. So, on the basis of Joel's recommendation, I got the DMT 8EE (Joel hasn't steered me wrong yet). I haven't gotten the razor to pass the HHT yet, but I have corrected the ding. My thinning, gray hair is rather fine (but an old Derby blade DOES pass the HHT - sigh). Still can't strop for beans, but the razor seems to shave very nicely - I'm getting about 16-18 hours before I notice stubble (well, except for the neck area). I don't know what the heck I'm doing, but I like the results.

[crankymoose]

I'll add I like my Tony Miller 2 sided diamond pasted "Paddle" strop the best it is my go to method, 99% of the time for any of my straights with a decent edge period.

In addition to the Tony Miller paddle strop with Diamond paste on 2 sides, I have a norton 4k/8k, a Kitayama, a chinese 12k and a belgian couticle if I get a new razor which always require sharpening but usually not too much I will do the honing myself on some of the above depending on several factors but once set up at most they see a stone hone on average 1-2 times a year.

I agree with Joel if I buy a straight that needs a lot of work besides it taking considerable time there is a lot of room for error using hones when that much work is involved I also normally send them out to one of the hone masters and from then on they require very little to keep them sharp. Honing for me and probably most requires more learning then the actual shaving or stropping as unlike shaving and stropping when honing you can have 2 identical razors and while sometimes they both respond good to the same method sometimes they don't, of course ymmv enjoy.:001_cool:

[gugi]

Nick,

Joel and others seems to suggest that if you want just the functionality you can't beat the paddle strops even for restoration. From your post it seems you have 2 reasons you want a hone, so I'll just summarize them with the respective answers as to what hone will fit them (thanks to David & others):

1.) you want to try a hone, just for kicks, because it sexy/challenging/...
- be prepared that it will take you some time to master and it won't be faster than a pasted strop.
- just for trying out honing you can get a polishing one (a lot of choices, pick whatever strikes your fancy) and learn to maintain your sharp razors with it. This is easier than making completely dull razor sharp.

2.) you want to fix ebay razors
- you will need coarse/medium hone (+ whatever you choose to finish on)

So you'll have to decide for yourself how important each of these is to you.

[TromboneGuy]

I have a 4-sided strop from Tony, but a couple of weeks ago I dinged the blade of one of my straights against the faucet while rinsing it off. Rather than ship it off to someone I decided "OK, time to try honing."

I raided my dad's garage - he's got a lot of hunting and pocket knives, but mostly uses buffing wheels to sharpen them now so he doesn't have to spend all day at it - and found a great big hard white arkansas stone.

15 minutes later the ding in the blade was nearly gone and I had one of the best shaves I've ever had off that razor.

The moral of the story: DO NOT FEAR THE HONE.

Oh, and moral #2: raid other people's stashes for unused stuff. I now have a great hone for free. :biggrin:

[professorchaos]

Nick,
Get 4 sided, diamond pasted paddle strop from Tony Miller. Hones are expensive, take way longer to learn, involve more work, and don't work as efficiently. Diamond pasted paddle strops will quickly and easily put a killer edge on a razor.

+1

I could not agree more. I got one based on Joel's recommendation elsewhere on the site and it has worked out well. Perfectly in fact. They are easy to use and effortlessly put a wicked edge on a razor. Now I am looking at a two sided paddle strop with .5 Micron Green Chromide on one side and ... ? ... on the other.

[minstrel]

My 2 cents:

If you just want to try a hone and it doesn't matter what it is - get a barber hone. There are hones for about $15 at www.redtrader99.com and that's what I use for my straights. If it turns out you hate honing, you won't have spent a lot of money that way.

If you need to establish a new bevel on an "eBay Special", you can do this with a 1000 or 1200 grit sand paper laid flat on a pane of glass. I have the glass from a broken picture frame laid on a bench, and that has worked ok for me the couple of times I've had to resort to that. When you have the bevel established on the sand paper, pasted paddle strops would be enough to polish the edge and get the razor shave ready.

However, if you are prepared to invest time and money and get a bunch of expensive hones and learn how to use them, I'm sure this could be an enjoyable hobby for you in its own right. Barber hones are very mild, and are very difficult to over-hone on, in my experience, but if you can afford a coticule, you might want one of those, as has been suggested above. Otherwise, I would personally go with the Norton 4K/8K from the start.

/Nicholas

[BMWRider]

I found a 8000/4000 Norton online for $65. I also bought a four sided strop from Tony Miller and followed the recommendations Joel made. It is a great investment. My only question is where do I get the pastes when the original wears off? I found the 1.0 and .5 at Classic Shaving, I cannot find the 3.0. I will order my stone in January and call it a complete collection.

[rickw]

I would check with Tony or HandAmerican for paste.

[BMWRider]

I would check with Tony or HandAmerican for paste.


Thanks.

[gusman]

I think if all your wanting to do keep an edge shaveable, then paste or a cotcuile will do. Though the paste is eaier to use, the hone can be packed easier for travel.

That said, the next question is for if you want to gerta razor shave ready, fro mlike ebay or sort. Unfortuanly, this is where pastes fall short, only because pastes are able to put a true and correct bevel on a str8. More so, if you happen to :eek: drop your str8 in thesink and chip it, pastes are out of the question again. So its up to you of how far do you want to take this obsession?? Hell, some people use newspaper and a concutile to keep their razor shave ready, paste or hone, cant go wrong. But if it gets chipped, then yuo'll need a stone. I have the Norton 4k/8K, spyderco uf and some other barber hones I'm trying to find out what they are. Those 3 have done me well. I've also heard good things about using the blue beligin and yellow concutiles as well.

Here' s something else to think about too, smoe hones work better for some razors than others :eek: . So, listening form honemeisters, they have numberous hones and pastes for that reason. If you buy a norton 4k/8k, people can give you suggestions, as that happens to be the most popular average sharpening stone.

[mparker762]

Here' s something else to think about too, smoe hones work better for some razors than others :eek: . So, listening form honemeisters, they have numberous hones and pastes for that reason.

Hah! The real reason is raw, naked HAD. The "different hones work better on different razors" line is just the enabling rationalization :biggrin:

[Bruce]

Thank you, mparker,

I knew there HAD to be a relatively simple explanation for my condition. Even so, and with having HAD bad, I still seem to return to a coticule for the finish. I fully expect that once I begin to understand more about the honing process, I will realilze that I need yet more stones 'n stuff to out cut the coticule and better the blade.

And of course I still need to find out if "what is aluminum oxide?" is the question for that the last statement on the board, "the ne plus ultra." Or as would be said for the next episode of Rocky and Bullwinkle in, "Who outshines who, or does Alumina grit her teeth when she meets Chromia?":001_huh:

I keep wondering if it was this difficult for the old barbers to find and keep an edge:confused:

[mparker762]

I keep wondering if it was this difficult for the old barbers to find and keep an edge:confused:

Probably not. But then it was a profession to them, not a hobby. One they went to school for, and had instructors to teach them in person how to hone and shave. That really shortens the learning curve. Barber hones aren't difficult to use, but you do need a reasonable amount of practice to use them well - they're probably harder to master than a norton or coticule, and certainly have their own peculiar learning curve.

A lot of our trouble compared to our predecessors is simple inexperience. All of us nowadays have to learn part-time, by ourselves, with only abstract and often-contradictory explanations from semi-anonymous teachers of dubious distinction to go by, so it can take a couple of years to get to the point where 100 yrs ago a 17 yr old barber school student would have gotten in a few months. And HAD doesn't make this any easier, because each type of hone is different, and has its own learning curve for mastery. But with all that, after a year or so of thrashing around you'll find that getting a good edge isn't a real challenge, it's getting that wiping-the-whiskers-off edge that's your new white whale, and after another year or so you'll find that getting that wiping-the-whiskers-off edge isn't really a challenge after all - that what you're really shooting for is that elusive wiping-the-whiskers-off-against-the-grain-on-the-first-pass edge.

As hobbyists, we're free to chase after every nifty new honing whatzit that comes along, and we do. But they're more fun than necessary. If I were getting paid to shave as they were then I'd do exactly what they did - pick one technique for honing, master it and stick with it, and get on with making money by shaving people.

[newson]

i've had kitayama north mountain polishing stone and the king 6000grit waterstone and disliked the edge.

i've got a belgian coticule yellow waterstone, which is ok.

but for my money, the ceramic stones are hard to beat.
i've had the type of stone that kestrel mentions (chipping away), and currently use a very small, white ceramic stone from cutting edge technology, a dental tool sharpening company (cetllc.com).
i am curious to try the shapton 16k ceramic.

[jlander]

One thing you're forgetting... you aren't going to just buy a hone and get good results. It takes a tremendous amount of incredibly frustrating trial and error (months) to be able to make an ebay special and make it shave worth a damn. Some, heck, many can't even get that far, as they quit/give up. Personally, if I have a razor is really bad condition, or requires a lot of work - it's not even worth my time, energy or frustration to do it, and I'll happily pay someone else to do it, someone who has a lot of equipment, belts, etc. Heck, right now Joe Chandler has 2 W&B's or mine he's restoring/sharpening. What would take me (with quite a few hones) hours and hours - takes Joe no time at all, and isn't very expensive at all.

If you plan on restoring a lot of razors, and working on a lot of razor - by all means endulge, but you've got more time and patience than I :biggrin:

+1
I have a Frederick Reynolds 7/8 full wedge that I am trying to resurrect from the dead. The blade is now halfway presentable and it's just my Scottish hardheadedness that has kept me trying to get a shaveable edge on this thing for 4 weeks (it's NOT going to win!). That's why I have the hones. Its therapy for me. If that's not what you are looking for then the pasted strop and people like me are your best bet. Oh BTW I don't hone for anyone else. My own brood is frustration enough. :cool:

[joke1176]

+1
I have a Frederick Reynolds 7/8 full wedge that I am trying to resurrect from the dead. The blade is now halfway presentable and it's just my Scottish hardheadedness that has kept me trying to get a shaveable edge on this thing for 4 weeks (it's NOT going to win!). That's why I have the hones. Its therapy for me. If that's not what you are looking for then the pasted strop and people like me are your best bet. Oh BTW I don't hone for anyone else. My own brood is frustration enough. :cool:


Damn right! You can't let that silly piece of metal be the boss of you! You just have to let them know who really runs the show: Here's how it goes with me.
1. re-hone...again
2. recheck...again
3. grind teeth, take deep breath and repeat step 1

[jlander]

Damn right! You can't let that silly piece of metal be the boss of you! You just have to let them know who really runs the show: Here's how it goes with me.
1. re-hone...again
2. recheck...again
3. grind teeth, take deep breath and repeat step 1

Much longer and I will need to see the Dentist.....again.

[iron maiden]

All this talk of hones..:frown:...makes me glad Joel and the other guys here are willing to help us out.


BTW, I got the 4 sided Tony Miller pasted strop and love it....keeps my Dovo, Hen& Rooster and TI nice and sharp.

[asbjorn]

Just curious, what is the dimensions on the 4-sided strop?, like width and length of the stropping area?

[papasmurf]

Just curious, what is the dimensions on the 4-sided strop?, like width and length of the stropping area?

I think Tony has 2 sizes but mine is 10 inches in length and a little under 2 inches in width hope this helps

[TENroaches]

I got some razors at an antique store yesterday that used to be the owner (young girl)'s uncle's. He was a barber. The edges look nice, and one could even split a hair when I tried the HHT. I have a 3, 1, .5, .5 pasted paddle strop. Do you think I could (or should) see if I can't touch them up and make them shave-ready without actually sending them to get honed?

These razors look like they were babied.

[Bruce]

TimbTEN,

Um, from what you've likely read here often is that the HHT is THE litmus test for a razor before using it for a shave - the REAL test. So your HHT passing razor should be ready for shaving after you strop it. The others, well you have to apply the various tests (TNT, TPT, HHT, DBTT*) to them to determine where they are on the honing path to shavability.

*The DBTT is one of my own devising after hearing about the the Samurai sword which sliced a piece of the finest paper left hanging over is up-turned horizontal edge while its warrior slept - and is the the Draped Bathroom Tissue Test, or for the less sensitive among us the HTPT, the hanging toilet paper test. :wink:

[jlander]

I would make a pass or 3 on a pasted paddle before shaving with them.

As for the HHT, it's a good test, but not THE test IMHO. I have several razors that don't pass the HHT and are awesome shavers (my PUMA is one). The final test to me is a shave. If the razor shaves me smooth and comfortable, it's ready. HHT or no.

[TENroaches]

I would make a pass or 3 on a pasted paddle before shaving with them.

As for the HHT, it's a good test, but not THE test IMHO. I have several razors that don't pass the HHT and are awesome shavers (my PUMA is one). The final test to me is a shave. If the razor shaves me smooth and comfortable, it's ready. HHT or no.

I understand that. But my thinking was that if one of these does pass it, it could be worthy of shaving without needing to be honed. I might try a shave with one of my honed razors later today. My third straight shave. :smile:

[jlander]

I understand that. But my thinking was that if one of these does pass it, it could be worthy of shaving without needing to be honed. I might try a shave with one of my honed razors later today. My third straight shave. :smile:

Congratulations! :thumbup:

He mentioned it "split" a hair, that's not passing the HHT, hence my recommendation. You can certainly shave with it as is and it might be great. If a new razor pops hairs on my arm, I'll usually give it a try before I do anything to it

[TENroaches]

Congratulations! :thumbup:

He mentioned it "split" a hair, that's not passing the HHT, hence my recommendation. You can certainly shave with it as is and it might be great. If a new razor pops hairs on my arm, I'll usually give it a try before I do anything to it

Well I just tried the HTT with the "new" razors again and couldn't find the one that split the hair. I'm thinking it was the Dubl Duck, but who knows. Thanks!

[joke1176]

I am finding the HHT is more of a parlor trick, not really useful. The arm hair test seems to be much more indicative of a good shavin' razor.

That being said, I still can't resist the HHT. It's just so cool!