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Wanting to get into the espresso game.

As has been said in this thread and many others. You can pull a terrible shot on a $2,000 machine just as easily as you can on a $500 machine.



I can agree with that statement, but you're leaving the most important constant out of this equation, the grinder




Anyone care to add their .02? I'd appreciate any input, advice, or suggestions. Thanks.




take a look at the price of that machine ($600)...it's a super auto, meaning it is the espresso machine and grinder all in one. Believe what you want to believe but you're not going to pull a good shot using a grinder that costs less than $600-$700. nuff said



Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.
 
You need to get an grinder that will give you an espresso grind. Your Capresso Infinity is more of a pour over or drip grinder. I don't think you will get a good shot unless you get a grinder that can give you the fine, consistent grind that any espresso machine is going to demand.

I have a Baratza Maestro which has similar steel conical burrs and it won't cut it for espresso. Fantastic for pour over or drip or press but it just can't grind fine enough and consistent enough at the lowest setting to give me a puck that won't blow apart or fracture in the portafilter. Now my super jolly... No problems at all getting what I need out of that beast.

Find your grinder first, then look for an espresso machine. Rancilio Silvia is a nice entry level machine that is very respectable when paired with a good grinder. Many people who start with a Silvia stick with it as once you have it dialed in it WILL do it right
 
I have a Pharos hand grinder - this one will grind as well as a Compak K10 - same 68mm conical burrs but only $245 from Orphan Espresso. This grinder paired with a simple machine will make very good espresso.
 
Mick, I was going to PM you, but figured I'd get the info here for the good of the group. I've looked quite a bit at the Rancilio Silvia paired with the Rocky grinder. I liked this pairing but it is a bit more ($300 higher)than what I'd pointed out before with the Breville Barista Express . They both have fantastic ratings and seem to be a good starting point as well. Just like when I was setting up with my drip maker/grinder, I'd rather pay a little more up front and do it right, than end up having to upgrade soon after purchase. I do like the extra control you have with this Rancilio setup as opposed to the Breville. It also means a steeper learning curve= more bad shots during learning.

Also- I don't know much about adding a PID. Do you guys with experience feel this is needed? Or just an unnecessary extra added expense? Since this is a single boiler machine, does having the PID help when you brew/steam?

Thanks! Please give your input.
 
I will echo @EricBNC post, that if you want to save money on the grinder look into the Pharos. Since you are grinding for one (double) shot at a time it is not chore to use. Takes maybe 30 seconds to grind a double shot. It is finicky to adjust, but assuming you only use it for espresso you can leave it alone once it is dialed in.

Then you can consider different espresso machines with the rest of your allotted budget.
 
Mick, I was going to PM you, but figured I'd get the info here for the good of the group. I've looked quite a bit at the Rancilio Silvia paired with the Rocky grinder. I liked this pairing but it is a bit more ($300 higher)than what I'd pointed out before with the Breville Barista Express . They both have fantastic ratings and seem to be a good starting point as well. Just like when I was setting up with my drip maker/grinder, I'd rather pay a little more up front and do it right, than end up having to upgrade soon after purchase. I do like the extra control you have with this Rancilio setup as opposed to the Breville. It also means a steeper learning curve= more bad shots during learning.

Also- I don't know much about adding a PID. Do you guys with experience feel this is needed? Or just an unnecessary extra added expense? Since this is a single boiler machine, does having the PID help when you brew/steam?

Thanks! Please give your input.




Buy your last grinder first...the Ranchilio Rocky isn't it

you want to make a great espresso right? don't scrimp on the grinder, that's rule #1, and it's true, you can pull a poor shot on a $2K machine and pull a very good shot on a $300 espresso machine but you have to have a consistent grind...the consumer grinders aren't going to get you there

if available cash (what you have to spend) is an issue, then look for a quality grinder that needs refurbishing, buy it and rebuild it


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.
 
Also- I don't know much about adding a PID. Do you guys with experience feel this is needed? Or just an unnecessary extra added expense? Since this is a single boiler machine, does having the PID help when you brew/steam?

Thanks! Please give your input.



~~~my first espresso machine was a single boiler...a Gaggia Classic. The PO wired it up w/a Cal _Tech (IIRC) PID. The reason for using PID (proportional inverse derivative), the oem temp stats on many consumer expresso machines will have a temp swing of 40 + degrees Fahrenheit, so you wont necessarily pull your shot at the best target temp (193-203f). The PID will enable you to set the group water at whatever levl you want to set it for, since they all have led readouts adjustable by one degree intervals

So if you are brewing w/o a PID and your temp stat varies widely, you might pull a good shot you might not. PID eliminates the guess work and having to temp surf


here's a pic of the PID'd Gaggia Classic, my gateway machine into home espresso (back in 08')

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Silvia users will spot the Silvia steam arm on this Gaggia machine. the Silvia steam arm mod is a popular mod for all consumer Gaggia espresso machines. the oem panarello steam wand Gaggia installed really sucked at best

notice the electronic box mounted to the chassis of the machine upper left. that is an enclosue with the PID mounted inside of the aluminum enclosure. The PO mounted both choosing to attach on the outside of the machine, a good choice since the heat the boiler operates at can wreak havoc on the electronic boards, though a bigger concern would be to keep the unit dry, and handy so the operator can change strke temps with the push of a button (on the front of the PID panel)

On this Gaggia Classic, w/o the PID, you would begin to brew when the brew button (extreme right) on the front panel lights, but again, that temp will vary by 40 degrees. The temp stat operates by opening and closing the heating circuit. I never had to learn how to temp surf since the PID was already installed but on single boiler machines, if yours does not have PID installed, you';ll learn how to temp surf pretty fast in order to be able to try and hit the best possible brew temps

I gotta admit, PID is an ingenious addition on single boiler espresso machines. PID was first used in the HVAC industry to control temps in various equipment. used on an espresso machine, you can dial in your strike temp to the exact degree you find works best with the roast level of your coffee. I usually left my PID set towards the higher end and for the green coffee beans I was roasting for my espresso, having to adjust the PID often for my roasts wasn't needed as I was roasting to fairly consistent levels each and every roast. I would change the PID setting if I changed coffee bean type or if from a different farm, but more often than not, I was buying 10 lb lots of green coffee beans, I'd settle on a roast level and the PID was dialed in and left for the remainder of the lot

Once however, I was asleep behind the wheel while roasting and a batch got away from me. I normally roast to Full City +but this one batch I really let it go through 2nd crack and ended up with a French level of roast (burnt to f'ing hell=:) I just so happened to be talking with a friend who was way more along in this hobby than I at the time and he suggested instead of me 86ing that roast, to turn the PID 10 points lower than where I was running

I'm getting ahead of myself in this story and need to back up and mention that I pulled a shot w/this French roasted coffee, and of course it tasted every bit as burnt as it looked. So I'm mentioning this to my friend who in turn says to set the PID strike temp down 10 degrees then see how the shots taste. I did and I was totally blown away as the coffee now tasted just fine. What the f*#k just happened?

Okay, remember the golden rule of espresso water strike temperature?.....it's 193 to 203 degrees f approx. and as far as that goes, all coffee tastes best within these parameters. If your coffee tastes sour your strike temp is too low, bump it up. Conversely, if your coffee tastes bitter, the water is too damn hot, turn it down. Easy to do with a PID. As I was normally brewing with higher strikes temps, which suited the level of my coffee roasts...roast level as in doneness, since the roast itself was burnt, it already had a bitter taste, so logically, brewing with cooler water counter reacted and saved the day. I now was able to not have to toss the otherwise burnt roast. that is an example of what a PID can do for your coffee brewer, whether it's an espresso machine or?....

Also, when choosing a PID to install, go with one that has two circuits so you can control both brew and steam functions


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.
 
I'm going to amend my last statement about the need to spend $600 to $700 to get an acceptable grinder for espresso. Seems a pal following this thread hit me off list and reminded me about a $400 grinder (that meets the minimum standard for grinding roasted coffee for espresso) that is on sale now for $300. w/o further ado-

Cunill Tranquilo in all it's splendor

http://sovranastore.com/esgrin.html



Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.
 
Jake- (Off topic we can take to PM) what machine are you using roast? Are you using same machine for yourmdrip coffee and espresso? Thanks.
 
I'm going to amend my last statement about the need to spend $600 to $700 to get an acceptable grinder for espresso. Seems a pal following this thread hit me off list and reminded me about a $400 grinder (that meets the minimum standard for grinding roasted coffee for espresso) that is on sale now for $300. w/o further ado-

Cunill Tranquilo in all it's splendor

http://sovranastore.com/esgrin.html



Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.

If you don't mind a used grinder and have the time and patience to look and wait for something good that has not been beaten to death you can get a Mazzer under $300.

I picked up my Super Jolly for $250 shipped to me. It was used in a church meeting room for years so the condition was nice since it was a semi-non-commercial setting (used 1 or 2 days a week for a couple dozen shots each time). time invested was taking the grinder and dosser apart and cleaning out all of the old stinky coffee. Burrs showed no noticeable use and the grind consistency is spot on. Granted it did take me the better part of a day to disassemble, service, clean and put it back together again but the price was there for me.

Even a commercial used Mazzer (as long as the motor is still strong) after purchasing will only set you back cost the price of a new set of burrs $40 +/- and maybe a lick of paint on the case :001_smile

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Mick, I've been perusing the 'Bay this morning looking for just that. Prices do vary quite a bit. But I plan on watching out for one. We actually had one on Craigslist here in Jacksonville for $300, but had been sold. I'll keep watching. There seems to be a lot of opinions on different grinders for home espresso, but the Mazzer seems to have nothing but good reviews. So I'll keep watching. I plan to do as most have suggested, get the grinder, then the machine.

Cheers

Dan
 
Mick, I've been perusing the 'Bay this morning looking for just that. Prices do vary quite a bit. But I plan on watching out for one. We actually had one on Craigslist here in Jacksonville for $300, but had been sold. I'll keep watching. There seems to be a lot of opinions on different grinders for home espresso, but the Mazzer seems to have nothing but good reviews. So I'll keep watching. I plan to do as most have suggested, get the grinder, then the machine.

Cheers

Dan

If you have the room or can afford to make the room (counter space) you can't go wrong with any of the Mazzer models.

They are all commercial espresso grinders and are made to work all day long every day in a business setting without any problems. They are tanks. Heavy. Over built. Massive machines.

The drawbacks are: They are big. They are heavy. They can eat up some beans. AND they are espresso ONLY. They are awful at grinding coarse but the biggest issue is changing the grind settings. Getting dialed in for one type of bean and ground just fine enough takes a little fidgeting but once it is dialed in, you just use it until you get a different type of bean then some minor fiddling with the grind wheel settings (usually just a nudge coarser or finer is all). Once you make a BIG setting change like to grind some drip, getting it back to your perfect espresso setting can take a number of cups of coffee. This is why I have multiple grinders. One for espresso (Mazzer) and one for drip and press (Baratza). I only touch the grind setting on the Mazzer if I change beans and ONLY if I need to. Most of the time the setting is fine from bean to bean but occasionally a little nudge one way or the other helps.

Once you have a good grinder, the espresso machine is not as important as you can get a great shot with just about any top shelf machine. Each will have their own quirks that you will need to get used to but once YOU are dialed into your machine you should be able to pump out perfect shot after perfect shot as long as you do not switch up your "system" of making coffee.

I probably should not say this but I have another grinder showing up tomorrow..... SWMBO is not too pleased with the idea of 3 grinders but she enjoys the coffee so maybe I can get away with keeping 3 grinders on the counter for a while.
 
Jake- (Off topic we can take to PM) what machine are you using roast? Are you using same machine for yourmdrip coffee and espresso? Thanks.



~~~I'm open to you or anyone else sending me a PM. I'll answer questions here or in private. I'm fine with either or. I'm roasting my green coffee beans currently using a Hot Top B model. I drink espresso so I brew using an espresso machine. Current espresso machine is an HX, Quick Mill Vetrano. I've been using it for almost 3 years. I've logged 521 roasts on my Hot Top roaster, and yes I keep a log book for my roasts

I don't have a drip coffee maker. The only guests that regularly request drip type coffee is my wife's Mother who passed away in May and my wife's Aunt. They both preferred drip coffee so I made them Americanos which they thoroughly enjoyed when they came down for Christmas


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.
 
Would 521 roasts in the Hot Top be roughly 250 pounds? Good to hear that it is still working. Hopefully will be going strong through 1000.
 
Just did roast #522 at 1:30 AM this morning=:)...280 grams Yemen (starting weight). I'm really liking this bean (Haraazi)...3rd time I roasted this particular green, sourced through the green coffee buying club. It's an active ongoing distribution. I bought 10 lbs., liked it enough I bought 15 more lbs. which will be shipped to me in early Sept. Sorry, but I digress=:)

Yes, 521 roasts that's over 250 lbs. 280 grams is 9.87 ounces so each batch is a little over a 1/2 lb at a time. There is a stickied Hot Top thread on GCBC and there are users who have reported well over 1000, 1500 + roasts, still going strong....& some of those are oem machines...IOW, still using all of the original parts. Before I bought mine, and before I decided to buy it, while I was still on the fence, I emailed Chas Ripo from the S1 Café as I knew he was running one...I asked him for a testimonial. his reply to me sealed the deal. the Hot Top is not the only plug and play roaster around....there are some good roasters out there. I liked the Behmor I used (logged 100 roasts before parting with it) before going with the Hot Top

If I had stupid money I'd like to play with U.S. Roasting Corp's gas fired 1 lb sample roaster, but when all is said and done...I'm getting along quite well with my B model Hot Top. the manufacturer's rep here in the states (Michael) has been a delight to work with whenever I needed anything from him. their online repair manual is a great help when disassembling any part of the machine


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.
 
Just did roast #522 at 1:30 AM this morning=:)...280 grams Yemen (starting weight). I'm really liking this bean (Haraazi)...3rd time I roasted this particular green, sourced through the green coffee buying club. It's an active ongoing distribution. I bought 10 lbs., liked it enough I bought 15 more lbs. which will be shipped to me in early Sept. Sorry, but I digress=:)

Yes, 521 roasts that's over 250 lbs. 280 grams is 9.87 ounces so each batch is a little over a 1/2 lb at a time. There is a stickied Hot Top thread on GCBC and there are users who have reported well over 1000, 1500 + roasts, still going strong....& some of those are oem machines...IOW, still using all of the original parts. Before I bought mine, and before I decided to buy it, while I was still on the fence, I emailed Chas Ripo from the S1 Café as I knew he was running one...I asked him for a testimonial. his reply to me sealed the deal. the Hot Top is not the only plug and play roaster around....there are some good roasters out there. I liked the Behmor I used (logged 100 roasts before parting with it) before going with the Hot Top

If I had stupid money I'd like to play with U.S. Roasting Corp's gas fired 1 lb sample roaster, but when all is said and done...I'm getting along quite well with my B model Hot Top. the manufacturer's rep here in the states (Michael) has been a delight to work with whenever I needed anything from him. their online repair manual is a great help when disassembling any part of the machine


Best,


Jake
Reddick Fla.

The guy who wrote their manual is an active poster at Home Barista. Randy Glass. Really fun and delightful poster.
 
I just wanted to say that I had a great coffee conversation with Shakin_Jake today and he shared a wealth of information about roasting. I only wish I could sit and tap into his mind for hours and absorb all the coffee intel he holds.

Thanks to Jake for being a true gentleman and sharing his wisdom, as this is the ongoing theme of B&B. passing down one's knowledge to those who know less. It was a pleasure and extremely educational.

Great guy to talk coffee with.

Cheers!
 
There's a LOT more I need to learn about coffee... Just touching the tip of it now is all I have been doing....
 
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