Pastes vs finer grit hones

[seattleshaver]

I'm wondering how much "utility" there is in finer grit hones vs pastes? For instance going from 8k to the Cnat and then to pastes or going from 8k to cnat to 15k or 20k hones and then to pastes.

Is there much point to that economically? I get it if you don't want to use pastes but if you use them is there much difference in the above scenario?

 

[Steve56]

If you end up on paste I don't see a lot of value in going beyond 10-12k synth or equivalent, but people more knowledgeable of pastes may have a different opinion.

I think the difference is going to be in the feeling of the shaving edge from your final grit. Pastes vs coticule vs synths vs Thuringian, etc all give a different feel to the edge. While you're learning to hone and shave you might not be able to tell much difference, or you might get better results out of an easier method as you learn. But as you gain proficiency in straight shaving and honing, I suspect you will find yourself gravitating to a particular kind of finisher whatever that might be.

Cheers, Steve

 

[Slash McCoy]

I have never owned a synthetic stone finer than the 12k Naniwa SS but I have used .3u film. Now I stop at 1u, or 12k, and finish on a progression of lapped and pasted balsa. These are the best edges I have ever achieved.in my unscientific opinion, proper use of properly set up lapped and pasted balsa gives a razor its best possible edge, with a good jnat edge being of a somewhat different character but very nearly as sharp. Film and ultra fine synthetic stones SHOULD give results comparable to a good film edge.However this is subjective and very much YMMV.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Once you get past 3 micron hones I doubt there's much benefit to hones if you're going to paste anyway. The nature of pastes suggests that even a 0.25 micron paste will change that edge in just a few passes. Maybe the jump to 0.01 micron or something like that would prefer a bit more refinement, but that's probably easier done by a paste progression than by more hones unless your geometry requirements for the edge require minimal paste use.

 

[Gamma]

You can't lump all pastes into one bucket as though the entire story is told via microns.
There is a big difference between going from 5k Nani to .25 µm diamond and going from 8k Nani to .1 Feox - and so on and so forth. Just about any grit Cerium Oxide will leave (seemingly) almost zero (felt) impact on a 5k edge but on a much finer edge you might be surprised.
Test test test and then test again - it's the only way to know.

 

[gary haywood]

Having shaved of the 20 k g suehiro which is a great stone I,d be more than happy with crox instead of paying £250 pounds out. Paste gets a lot of bad press but I think sharpening paste when use correctly are very good option . I often used crox on balsa after 12 k naniwa with exallant results. Some guys say paste takes you to the next level which it can for the price it's very effective. I no lots of guys happy to maintain razors with paste some prefer stone. nagural stones leave a nice edge with or with out paste.

 

[Slash McCoy]

And .1u diamond paste is a couple of levels beyond CrOx. Lapping the balsa, and applying only a trace, and rubbing it in well, still another level.

 

[Gamma]

I never thought the 20k Gok was anything all that great, marginally better than a 12k SS IMO.

There are a lot of pastes to choose from, Chromox and diamond would not be my first choices but I could get by with them if I had to.

 

[eKretz]

Honestly none of the synth hones are that great compared to good natural stones, but the best synth finishers do a fine job as long as you nail the edge just right. That means not doing too little or too much honing on them, which can a bit of a PITA.

I get very good edges from my SG20k as long as I don't overcook the edge. JNats and other good quality natural stones seem to be more immune to this and it's pretty easy to get a great edge with those as long as the edges are brought up to an appropriate level before going to the natural stone.

 

[buca3152]

Pastes work. What i did a while back was try everything in every medium i could find. My results are that i dont like any of them. So i gave them all away. I think it was a serious waste of time.for me to go.thru that besides the money i spent. There was always one more to try, one more medium to try. Spray a lil water on it first, do more, do less etc etc etc
And i went thru it. Im sharing my personal experience here. Im not saying you will get the same result as I did. The stone work has to be spot on. It wont.correct.any major issues. Use it, dont use it. If you like it continue. If you dont then dont.

 

[Legion]

IMO, there is a general opinion that sharper always equals a better shave. I don't believe this is always the case. I always used to finish with pastes, because by my standard measure (the HHT), pastes made my blades a little sharper than shaving right off my natural hones (usually coticules). Eventually, in the interest if minimisation and simplicity, I cut out the pastes and found I liked the feel of the shave better, and it was just as close.

Now I just go from stone to linen to leather.

 

[lightfoot]

Early on on my SR journey I had Crox due to the influence of certain honing videos. Crox was something I should have waited to try because my honing and shaving skills were simply not there. Crox or not, those early months of shaving and honing were a serious uphill battle. Looking back I'm surprised I stuck with it at all.

 

[seattleshaver]

Early on on my SR journey I had Crox due to the influence of certain honing videos. Crox was something I should have waited to try because my honing and shaving skills were simply not there. Crox or not, those early months of shaving and honing were a serious uphill battle. Looking back I'm surprised I stuck with it at all.

Now that you know how to hone what do you feel Crox does or doesn't do to your edge?

 

[lightfoot]

I lost my Crox so I can't say. I do have some diamond spray that seemed to add a touch of keenness but it seemed to fall off half way through the shave so hi just abandoned all of them all together. I think Slash may be onto something with his pasted balsa but I haven't tried that out yet. I just did a 5k, jnat & black ark sequence this morning and it wound up deadly sharp after stropping on clean linen and leather. I guess I'm quite content with this so far.

 

[seattleshaver]

To me that seems to be the issue. People either use crox when they aren't proficient at shaving yet and then, because they can, quit using it when they are proficient and sometimes declare that it's no good when, in fact, they haven't tried it now that they are proficient at shaving.

Personally, I don't see how it can hurt a good edge. Or rather I should say, I don't see how it can do anything but improve an already good edge.

 

[lightfoot]

To me that seems to be the issue. People either use crox when they aren't proficient at shaving yet and then, because they can, quit using it when they are proficient and sometimes declare that it's no good when, in fact, they haven't tried it now that they are proficient at shaving.

Personally, I don't see how it can hurt a good edge. Or rather I should say, I don't see how it can do anything but improve an already good edge.

well from what Slash has suggested many times it's capable of providing very long term maintenance if combined with lapped balsa. But I agree in the sense that I don't see it having any negative impact on a well honed bevel. But my limited experience with it is that the benefit from it always winds up being kind of short-lived. Also it creates the need for an extra piece of linen (if you use it this way) which I don't have right now. Some even go a step further and treat a leather strop with it as well but again I don't have a spare leather strop either.

 

[seattleshaver]

I just use a $10 paddle strop for the pastes but I do get your point.

 

[Legion]

To me that seems to be the issue. People either use crox when they aren't proficient at shaving yet and then, because they can, quit using it when they are proficient and sometimes declare that it's no good when, in fact, they haven't tried it now that they are proficient at shaving.

Personally, I don't see how it can hurt a good edge. Or rather I should say, I don't see how it can do anything but improve an already good edge.

once you get them dialed in, different natural stones really do feel quite different from one another. If you follow that with CrOx the razor now no longer feels like one finished with an XYZ stone, it feels like one finished with crox. And that's fine, if you like a CrOx feeling razor, but I usually prefer a Coticule or Thuri feeling edge. It's just YMMV, not better or worse.

 

[Slash McCoy]

BTW while I am a fan of lapped balsa with diamond paste, I don't care for leather or cloth with any sort of paste. Sure, YMMV and all that but all the old legends Urbana about pasted stropping eventually requiring the razor to revisit a hone seem to be true, in my experience. Lapped balsa, and very minimal application of paste rubbed into the grain, and enough laps to gitter done, brings the best out of diamond paste and I have been able to use this system indefinitely for edge maintenance as well as for a finish off stone or film. Haven't tried CBN yet but that is something I plan to do some day. CrOx doesn't get my blades where I want them to be. Since switching to balsa and refining my style on it, I haven't tried iron oxide so I won't entirely dismiss the CrOx-FeOx progression just yet but I really like the wide choice in grits available with diamond.

If there is a coating of paste on the balsa, you may be enjoying some edge improvement but not the finest possible cutting action. The magic comes from the particles being embedded in the balsa rather than rolling around between blade and wood. At least that is how it seems to me.

 

[eKretz]

Yeah I have gotten better edges from pasted stropping with smaller amounts of abrasive so that it's embedded rather than an excess that might result in abrasives rolling around loose on the substrate. Pasted stropping can provide perfectly suitable edges, but you have to get your method down or some of the same problems with synth hones can rear their heads. Durability can suffer if too many laps are done unless you do something like Slash and hit the edge very frequently. The edge failing mid shave is something I've heard from a lot of guys.