Making a hone

[Nobody]

On a related note, I stopped by Home Depot today and picked up a slate tile. I sifted through a large stack of tiles looking for a thick tile that was very flat. For all of $1.60 (after tax) I walked out with a stone that fit the bill, and I was pleasantly surprised that I could see tiny little crystals reflecting in the sun. I used a hack saw (sold my tile saw to a friend that was doing some tiling... may have to borrow it back...) to cut a 6 1/2" x 3 1/2" piece where it was flattest, sanded it a bit to remove trouble areas, and tried a couple razors on it (junkers, but it would give an idea of what it was capable of). First thing I will say is that the slate is SOFT! It was a very light colored tile, and it produces a brown slurry when using a razor on it. If I don't use enough water, it gets really really thick! It seems to cut really fast (but all the stones I have hand have been really slow, so take that with a grain of salt) and leave a nice edge. The one junker had last tested a DMT 1.2K and a little Arkansas stone in the 800 grit range, and the slate made short work of removing the scratches. I seem to remember Larry saying he had a "mud stone" that cut as fast as a 1K, but left an edge more like a 4K... This reminds me of that, only leaving an edge that looks more like an 8K! I took one of my razors that doesn't get a lot of love, and ran it over the slate good on both sides. I did "dilutions" running water more and more frequently, and finished with a with water running. It gives an edge that will pass HHT1 (Singing violin). I am excited, since I have been looking for a good mid-range hone, and for the price, WOW, you can't beat $1.60 for a good, cheap mid-range hone. I want to try shaving with that razor tomorrow, and I will report back how things go. I don't plan on using it as a finisher, but as a stepping stone (ha! pun!) on the way to a finishing stone. I wonder how it would do setting a bevel... I am a fairly patient man...
If this turns out well, I will have to try cutting a 12"x3" piece so I can lap it and really go to town! I would send samples out, but the tile was so inexpensive that shipping on each chunk would cost more than the tile did to begin with! I suggest others try it too and see what they think. Maybe we can find a correlation, color -vs- speed and/or finishing properties.

Interesting indeed! I could use a mid range stone as well and am due to pick up some polyurethane for the much delayed finishing stone. Methinks a piece of slate is on the shopping list now. I had been thinking along that line but got sidetracked into lapidary materials.

When I get down by my dad's house I will get the one book that should have some good info on edges. I'll see if any of the books made it to my house on Monday. I saw it the last time I was in the basement looking for my old baseball mitts for my son. Any of the lapidary sites or knap sites have experts who are excellent at identifying stones. Also there is a US mineral deposit map that shows deposits of various minerals throughout the country. Obviously we are talking minerals and you live in close proximity to some good deposits. That map may expidite your search or at least give you new insight. I have played around with it since I knap. If you go out and find any decent larger sizes of flint or chert etc I'd be glad to take it off your hands. I don't think I have to much from AZ. That stuff you have knapps well. Also asking for locations of the bigger mineral deposits on the knapping sites might get you pointed in a good direction too. In some areas there are actually old quarries both modern and from the native Americans as well you can go to and hunt for it. Some are very large. It's funny about a month or two , I was looking at my pile of flint,cert etc from across the country and going somewhere there has to be decent mineral deposits that would work for honing. I'm sorry I'm not more exact on some of this for you. I was big into knapping a few years ago, I love the traditional Archery etc and I hurt my spine three years ago. Breaking up the stuff didn't go over well with my spine afterwards and it's been a while for my brain to be thinking knapping etc, so I'm a little fuzzy on some of the stuff. This week I'll go back through my stuff and get more detailed info for you.

That is extremely kool! Incidentally, the shop where I got the stones has large chert nodules out of what looks to be a decayed limestone deposit. Sells by the pound. How much do you want? I can check on the price, but suspect it to be $3-5 per pound. Looks really remarkable, a nice creamy tan when chipped.

Incidentally, I've spent time studying the geological maps/books/etc. here. Usually gives me a headache due to the complexities and the "known" sites always seem to be picked over or closed due to abuse. Understanding how and where various minerals are formed and just getting out there and looking usually works for me. The state geologist is a pretty nice guy and may be worth a shot as well. Most of the emphasis out here is on metals and that is what I had been looking for previously, metals or the associated minerals. I quit going out a couple years ago due to spinal issues. The phrase "I feel your pain." applies strongly. Fortunately, I'm feeling somewhat better these days and can contemplate giving it a try. Can't carry much, but I can sure tie a rope to it and drag it if I can't jeep to it!

 

[Pkrankow]

xMackx
I know that some chefs talk about refreshing their knife blades on the back unglazed rim of a porcelain plate. One of the main ingredients of porcelain is kaolin, and if you could find powdered kaoling it could maybe be a component in your mixture. Alx

Kaolin is available at any place that sells pottery supplies. Many places will split bags so you can get 5# or so for $10.

http://columbusclay.com/

This same place will sell you many things that we consider abrasives for pasting strops, but will call it "pigment" there may not be as good of control over particle size though.

While writing this zircon flour came to mind, I have a couple pounds of Zircopax from an IR reflector refractory experiment. I also have TiO2 and kaolin.

Phil

 

[eastomjac]

particle size can be managed with a mortise and pestal.if you can buy something you can reproduce it.now wether or not the cost/trouble is worthwhile,that is the question.

 

[Woodash]

xMackx
I know that some chefs talk about refreshing their knife blades on the back unglazed rim of a porcelain plate. One of the main ingredients of porcelain is kaolin, and if you could find powdered kaoling it could maybe be a component in your mixture. Alx

You'd have to calcine the kaolin at some pretty high temperatures (typically >1200°C for several hours) to make it work like porcelain or other ceramics.

 

[Pkrankow]

You'd have to calcine the kaolin at some pretty high temperatures (typically >1200°C for several hours) to make it work like porcelain or other ceramics.

After that it IS porcelain. Kaolin is a high fire clay that becomes porcelain or china ceramic.

Phil

 

[Woodash]

Porcelain is not always made with pure calcined kaolinite. There are frequently other materials (usually more siliceous) added to the mix. The end product(s) vary with calcination temperature as well.

 

[xMackx]

Papafish... You answered my question if any places carry slate tile and I definitely will get some soon as I need a mid range hone myself. I just bought a beautiful natural finishing stone from Poland. It needs lapping so I should have some time to do that tomarrow. But I am really excited to see if my Home Depot has Slate tile here. And they will cut it to size there for free, that must of been a task cutting with a hack saw. That's really cool you could see quartz crystals sparkling. Glad to see we're making headway with both types of whetstone making.

And the unglazed ceramic tile they have is for around pools and hot tubs (not as slippery). Which means they might be the small tiles. I need to write a check list for when I go to the store now. Lets see: Slate tile, unglazed ceramic tile, polyurethane.

You know with all of the information and collective ideas on this thread I bet anyone could learn more here than anywhere else by googleing like I did lol.

Oh and by the way guys. My real name is Mack. If everyone would introduce themselves.

 

[PapaFish]

I stopped by Home Depot today and picked up a slate tile... leaving an edge that looks ... like an 8K! I took one of my razors that doesn't get a lot of love, and ran it over the slate good on both sides. I did "dilutions" running water more and more frequently, and finished with a with water running. It gives an edge that will pass HHT1 (Singing violin). I want to try shaving with that razor tomorrow, and I will report back how things go. I don't plan on using it as a finisher, but as a stepping stone (ha! pun!) on the way to a finishing stone.

I just shaved, and... It shaves! It wouldn't tackle the thicker stuff with an abundance of ease, and my mustache area didn't get much of a shave, but it cleared my cheeks and did a passable job under my jaw line. I would say that it performs below (quite a ways below) the DMT8EE I once had, but perhaps with some practice, the slate could produce a daily shavable edge.
WAS IT SMOOTH?
Smooth enough on the cheeks, but I wasn't about to go back for a second pass if that's what you are asking! It wasn't harsh by any means, and a second pass wouldn't have killed me. Actually, it's smoothness may be in part due to the sharpness of the blade that I was able to attain. The reason I have such a big grin on my face is because the slate is practically a found item, and it worked!
WHAT WOULD YOU RATE IT'S "GRIT" EQUIVALENCE?
Somewhere below 8,000 American. Maybe a 5,000 to 7,000 (I don't have a lot of experience with a lot of different hones, so it's an estimate). Just fine enough that with some practice, a guy might be able to shave comfortably with it. But couple this with some Chromium Oxide... I think that combo would get you where you need to be!
ANY DRAWBACKS TO THE SLATE?
My piece has some little divots in it amidst the flat area. When the blade is flat, they don't hurt anything (actually they fill up with the slurry), but I have to be careful with the tip and heel since I have a smiling razor, and I have to rock the blade. It's possible I was not careful enough with the tip, which may account for why I had trouble with the mustache area (since that area is almost exclusively tip use). Also, it is very soft, so it's possible a person would scratch it up trying to sharpen a knife if they weren't careful, and gouge it with a serious mishap.
WOULD YOU RECOMMEND TO OTHERS?
Let me think about it... YES! The most you stand to lose is $1.49 plus tax, plus your time cutting and flattening it. Actually I lost a bit more, since I ruined finished dulling my aging hack saw blade (cutting an abrasive stone will do that). Plus, you don't need to cut a slurry stone, since it produces it's own slurry just using it.

Picture 1 is of the whole tile. I ran into something that the hack saw just wouldn't cut, so I opted for a 6 1/2" long piece, not 12". I reserved the flat 12" long piece (left hand side, left of the fingernail scratch mark you can see) for cutting later, just in case I screwed something up on the first go-around.

Picture 2 is of the piece I am using now. Plenty big enough for using a razor on, and it was almost flat enough without lapping.

As always, YMMV, and I am only one guy with one piece of slate...

 

[PapaFish]

Papafish... You answered my question if any places carry slate tile and I definitely will get some soon as I need a mid range hone myself. I just bought a beautiful natural finishing stone from Poland. It needs lapping so I should have some time to do that tomorrow. But I am really excited to see if my Home Depot has Slate tile here. And they will cut it to size there for free, that must of been a task cutting with a hack saw. That's really cool you could see quartz crystals sparkling. Glad to see we're making headway with both types of whetstone making.

And the unglazed ceramic tile they have is for around pools and hot tubs (not as slippery). Which means they might be the small tiles. I need to write a check list for when I go to the store now. Lets see: Slate tile, unglazed ceramic tile, polyurethane.

You know with all of the information and collective ideas on this thread I bet anyone could learn more here than anywhere else by googleing like I did lol.

Oh and by the way guys. My real name is Mack. If everyone would introduce themselves.

It was quite a task cutting with the hack saw (it took about an hour), but I wasn't doing anything else at the time, so it was no great loss! I should have checked to see if the Home Depot here would have cut it for free... I was unaware they offered that service. I know they will score and snap a piece of tile (porcelain or ceramic) lots of times, but for cutting natural stone you NEED to use a saw (preferably wet and preferably diamond!) because the natural inclusions will cause the pieces to split in unpredictable ways.
I guess I never looked into the stuff for around pools, but that would make sense. Best of luck finding a good flat large piece!
This is becoming a very informative thread, and I am proud to be a part of it!

My real name is Wyatt by the way.

 

[Pkrankow]

Makes me wonder why I don't just lap the back of my slate reinforced coticule....

Phil

 

[PapaFish]

Do it! What's the worst that can happen? You wind up with a lapped back side on your coticule... Plus, it's a "free" experiment, and you can add to the knowledge base being built here!

 

[xMackx]

I just knew that they will cut it for free from a few people that made there own bench hones (for chrox), and they we're using granite and marble. That slate almost looks like some types of Arkansas stone hones. After lapping on a belt sander to get the pits out I bet that will make an awesome whetstone. With my new finishing stone (and the rest I have), I'm going to make a nice bed from a board and and carve some grooves that will fit my stones. Aside from the physical process of natural whetstone making, it can be a beautiful work of art. And Jeff you're right about we are simply rediscovering something that has been done many times before.

 

[Nobody]

And Jeff you're right about we are simply rediscovering something that has been done many times before.

Wish I could take credit for that, but both you and Gamma have said similar. But yes, we are delving into the realm of almost lost knowledge. My great grandfather was a blacksmith in NC and I guarantee he didn't have a choice to send off to the EBay for a fancy belgian coticule or a Yokohamayamamama 150, 000k waterstone used by the imperial guard of the chinese emperors. He, like everyone else, made do with what was to hand like the razor honing rocks from upper Michigan you were writing of. A couple generations later and that common knowledge is anything but.

If any of you live on the east coast, check and see if you live anywhere near "the slate belt". I lived near an old quarry when I was much younger. There's some very fine grained and very hard slate to be had if you can find it. They used to crush it up and put it on roads in NC.

Meanwhile, I struck out at home depot. Slate looked too coarse to interest me and I couldn't get to Lowes easily. It's probably better, as my hands are full right now anyway with the rocks I have. Very interesting stuff you guys are doing!

 

[PapaFish]

...I struck out at home depot. Slate looked too coarse to interest me and I couldn't get to Lowes easily. It's probably better, as my hands are full right now anyway with the rocks I have. Very interesting stuff you guys are doing!

Yeah, like I said, I had to dig through a pile of tiles. There were several boxes that were broken and all the tiles had been taken out and piled up, so it wasn't like every other tile looked promising! There were lots of them had very big gaps between layers, lots were very uneven, lots were very thin... There were two that showed promise, I think I will stop by on my way home from work tomorrow and see if the other is still there.

It would be interesting to see about the slate belt... It's a ways off from here (10 hour drive to central NC), so I don't see it in the immediate future.

 

[Nobody]

It would be interesting to see about the slate belt... It's a ways off from here (10 hour drive to central NC), so I don't see it in the immediate future.

I wasn't referring to the Carolina Slate Belt, but to the larger belt of which it is only a small part. You see, there is a belt of slate which runs along the eastern side of the Appalachians from down in Georgia all the way to Canada. You have it in all the seaboard states as far as I know. Just google slate + your state. Overall it is is a "very large" geological feature. Bet it is closer to you than you think. Once you have the general location in mind, you can start looking for old quarries or just roadside exposures. Good for a country drive or an autumn hike.

And remarkably... I really don't need to shave this evening. That doesn't normally happen with any method. It was a good shave this morning. I'm surprised.

 

[xMackx]

I just had a revelation guys. I just realized that my cousin that lives down the road from me owns his own landscaping company, and as part of his company he orders different types of stones for decorating and waterfall building. So I'm thinking I should see what he has after I rig up something for cutting. On another note I found different companies that offer different types of rock tile online that let you order samples. From all the whetstones I have seen that are made of slate seem to be made of the dark black slate. I'm thinking about ordering a sample if one catches my eye, and since I don't have the tools for cutting large rocks in the mean time this seems it may be work trying out. I imagine It may take several samples before finding a good candidate, but that's the fun!
http://www.stonetiledepot.com/search_results.aspx?MSItype=1&item=SLATE&gclid=CPXWk_r4gqwCFawAQAodDQ2ZLA

 

[Pkrankow]

If your cousin is a landscaper and mason, he probably HAS something for cutting. Bring beer, or something good to share. He will think you are slightly crazy but that is OK.

Phil

 

[xMackx]

If your cousin is a landscaper and mason, he probably HAS something for cutting. Bring beer, or something good to share. He will think you are slightly crazy but that is OK.

Phil

He uses the stone for waterfall making mostly (which isn't cutting them) and he is extremely religious and won't even let his wife drink wine. And he already thinks my family is crazy. lol... But he's a good guy so I know he will help.

 

[Pkrankow]

He uses the stone for waterfall making mostly (which isn't cutting them) and he is extremely religious and won't even let his wife drink wine. And he already thinks my family is crazy. lol... But he's a good guy so I know he will help.

Then "bring something good to share" I know people who refuse alcohol for different reasons. Sounds like he hammer breaks the rocks that need resizing then.

Phil

 

[Krodor]

Got me a square of slate from lowes, and had the guy slice out 2 3 inch wide slabs of it. Total? 2 bucks (ok, 4 bucks since I got 2 squares, 4 slabs...) so, after 45 minutes with the DMT 325, I got a 12 inch long, absolutely flat plate of smooth stone. We'll see how she hones/shaves later (tonight?). Either way, a dollar well spent if it works, you know? Plus I have extra!